Trending Topics

      Next match: v [] Thu 1st Jan @ 1:00 am

      Today is the 23rd of May and on this date LFC's match record is P9 W4 D1 L4

      LFC Reds Poll

      Q. Is Rafa the right man?

      Yes
      (74.5%)
      No
      (25.5%)

      The great big Rafa debate

      Read 472995 times
      0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
      RedLFCBlood
      • Guest
      Re: Is Rafa the right man?
      Reply #2277: Nov 02, 2009 10:28:27 am
      Just a thought for all who thinks Rafa should be shown the door, I'll put Rafa's yearly net spend down in here and you can draw your own conclusions.

      2004 £8.200,000  net spend

      2005 £12,930,000 net spend

      2006 £17.47 million net spend

      2007 £21,955,000 net spend

      2008 £19,650,000 net spend

      2009 Minus £9,750,000 net spend £9,750,000 profit.

      In 5 years Rafa's total spend has been £210,425,000

      In 5 years Rafa has recouped £139,730,000 from player sales

      Giving Rafa a Net spend over 5 years of £70,695,000

      Giving Rafa a Yearly average net spend of £14,139,000

      Not the figures some would have you believe, and is no where near good enough for a manager challenging on all four fronts IMO.

      If you average it over 6 years, which it soon will be..... it will give Rafa a net spend of £11,782,500 per year   ::)

      IMO that highlights why we have seen a high volume of players in and out of the club as Rafa has wheeled and dealed in the bargain basement to generate extra funds so he could build a starting XI that is capable of competing with likes of Chelsea UTD and Arsenal.

      Seeing figures like this helps me to see clearly what side of the fence I'm standing on. What about you ?
      « Last Edit: Nov 02, 2009 10:43:47 am by RedLFCBlood »
      JD
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 39,682 posts | 6976 
      Re: Is Rafa the right man?
      Reply #2278: Nov 02, 2009 10:41:50 am
      This original vote had those in favour of Benitez at 85%.

      If you haven't yet voted in the 'new poll' as of November 2009 then do so in this topic. (Stickied at the top of The Kop board)

      http://www.lfcreds.com/reds/index.php?topic=24676.0
      bartman49
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 2,157 posts | 37 
      Re: Is Rafa the right man?
      Reply #2279: Nov 02, 2009 10:42:53 am
      I read a lot about why Rafa should stay, by those who voted, but I see their are 55(so far) of you that say you want a change, yet I see no argument as to why you want Rafa replaced, how about some no voters giving their reasons.
      whyohwhyohwhy
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 11,283 posts | 95 
      Re: Is Rafa the right man?
      Reply #2280: Nov 02, 2009 10:42:58 am
      Ronnie Whelan put his poison pen to paper and tells of Rafa binning the Prem cos of his overwhelming obscession to win the Euro cup??? and the reason for the priority I hear you ask - Mr Whelan is convinced it is part of Rafas' plan to eventually secure a top job in Europe ,f**king crank you couldn't make it up.

      I'm disappointed in Ronnie Whelan after seeing that.  That is out of order.  Bad enough having to read the usual anti Rafa media bollocks, but to have an ex-Red (and one of my favourite players) come out and say that, words fail me.
      Keith Singleton
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 17,216 posts | 2764 
      • Sir Lewis Hamilton
      Re: Is Rafa the right man?
      Reply #2281: Nov 02, 2009 10:46:59 am
      I was told by one of my scouse friends that the yanks couldn't get rid of Rafa even if they wanted to as it would cost them over 20 million??... Is this true?
      Sweeney The Red
      • Forum Phil Babb
      • **

      • 170 posts |
      Re: Is Rafa the right man?
      Reply #2282: Nov 02, 2009 10:51:33 am
      I was told by one of my scouse friends that the yanks couldn't get rid of Rafa even if they wanted to as it would cost them over 20 million??... Is this true?

      Well if it costs 20 million, we don't have it. So to answer your question; yes.
      billythered
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 10,973 posts | 5032 
      • From Doubters to Champions of the World
      Re: Is Rafa the right man?
      Reply #2283: Nov 02, 2009 02:24:16 pm
      Well well well, What can i say, Ronnie Whelan having yet another dig at Rafa, All that tells me is he's another ' Let's hound Rafa out of Anfield' club member,Considering he was also  of my favourite players from the past, i'm utterly disappionted with his opinion, But, not the only one, As a poster mentioned above it certainly looks like the pro united lot are the most vociferous, The media for the last month especially has been battering Rafa and obviously trying to force the issue, More evidence can be heard from the likes of Talksquawk pundits and radio 5 dead, Collymore for example, The blokes a total f***in n*b, He was commentating on the Lyon game and when we scored he was giving it plenty, But i week later he's slates Rafa and suggests he is sacked immediately cos we lost to Arsenal in the league cup, And yet again on Sat after the Fulham game, Stick to what your good at Stan.... beating women up and shaggin strangers in car parks, I think it's called Doggin but thats been unfair to k-9's, All these so called experts are full of it, If they had any credence at all they would see the problems Rafa has had to put with,Maybe the stats from REDlfcblood should be sent to these radio stations for the pundits on there to browse over T hen maybe they all could have a more balanced opinion, That also applies to all the doomongers and those who have lost faith in the Rafalution, Of course it's been a disappoining season so far, Nobody feels it more than the man himself, Put yourself in his shoes for a mo,How does he feel when he goes home after a day like Saturday, Wednesday's game is huge, But it's not the end of the world if things don't go our way,Next monday is the game where everyone can get behind Rafa and show him why he's at the best club in the world, And prove to all the doubters and backstabbing bas**rds why we are the best fans in the world, Yeah it's been a nightmare season so far but things can only get better starting from wednesday, Come on you redmen.

            YNWA    IRWT.
      stuey
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 36,041 posts | 3966 
      Re: Is Rafa the right man?
      Reply #2284: Nov 02, 2009 02:26:58 pm
      I was told by one of my scouse friends that the yanks couldn't get rid of Rafa even if they wanted to as it would cost them over 20 million??... Is this true?
      If they had 20mill and a new manager who would do the job for F**k all Rafa would be back in Spain because they come up short on every count they have to resort to subterfuge and deceit to try and try and get the manager to resign or any alternative to prevent the dreaded hand in the pocket situation, the people calling for his head are throwing their weight behind the Yanks  :mad:
      JD
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 39,682 posts | 6976 
      Re: Is Rafa the right man?
      Reply #2285: Nov 02, 2009 02:30:39 pm
      I was told by one of my scouse friends that the yanks couldn't get rid of Rafa even if they wanted to as it would cost them over 20 million??... Is this true?

      I'm sure they'll just get another loan and 'leverage' him out.
      stuey
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 36,041 posts | 3966 
      Re: Is Rafa the right man?
      Reply #2286: Nov 02, 2009 02:43:46 pm
      I'm sure they'll just get another loan and 'leverage' him out.
      The fuckers are so strapped they're squeekin they couldn't set up a beneficial loan or any acceptable loan to save their lives rite now how they remain with no visible means of support is amazing.
      stuey
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 36,041 posts | 3966 
      Re: Is Rafa the right man?
      Reply #2287: Nov 02, 2009 03:10:48 pm
      Noticed that this morning mate, I also noticed as a former red who was involved in Hillsborough, he has put his pen to paper for that red top thats not fit to wipe your arse on, well in Ronnie you have disrespected 96 souls that at one point hero worshipped you and lost their lives to show you their support.
      His conscience is as substantial as his credit card Daz and money is the main player with both entities.
      « Last Edit: Nov 02, 2009 04:39:20 pm by stuey »
      JD
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 39,682 posts | 6976 
      Re: Is Rafa the right man?
      Reply #2288: Nov 03, 2009 12:22:24 am
      Around 80% of Liverpool fans on the forum in November 2009 say 'Yes' - Rafa is the right man.

      JD
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 39,682 posts | 6976 
      Re: Is Rafa the right man?
      Reply #2289: Nov 03, 2009 11:13:43 am
      Wasn't sure if this should have gone in the Ronnie Whelan thread or not but anyway, a relatively sensible read in today's Telegraph.

      Liverpool's Rafa Benitez should be criticised for what he does, not what he doesn't


      Rory Smith, The Daily Telegraph

      Ronnie Whelan, it is fair to say, is not an ardent supporter of Rafael Benitez, the Liverpool manager who is coming to define the word beleaguered.

      Speaking on RTE Sport in the aftermath of Liverpool’s chaotic collapse at Fulham, Whelan launched what is known in the business as a blistering tirade at the Spaniard, detailing his desire to win the European Cup “so he can get a job anywhere in Europe,” insisting that his “days have got to be numbered” at Anfield and declaring that his team selection at Fulham proves that Benitez is, once more, “putting all his eggs in one basket.”

      Stirring stuff. Wrong, of course, quite wrong. Mainly because Benitez’s team selection at Craven Cottage – the inclusion of Sotiris Kyrgiakos, Philipp Degen and Andriy Voronin the most eye-watering for any Liverpool fan – was defined not by a desire to rest players for the Champions League clash with Lyon on Wednesday, a game Liverpool must win to retain any real hope of reaching the lucrative knock-out rounds, but by injury.

      That’s right, Ronnie. Glen Johnson, injured. Martin Skrtel, injured. Daniel Agger and Alberto Aquilani, ill. Fabio Aurelio, injured. Steven Gerrard, injured. Martin  Kelly, Nabil El Zhar and David N’Gog, three players who would all have played because of their absent senior counterparts, all injured. Even reserve goalkeeper Diego Cavalieri, injured. Fernando Torres, not fully fit.

      Yet the accusations that Benitez (did you know he’s foreign, by the way? He’s not from here, so he doesn’t understand English football. In Spain, they hate winning the domestic league. In fact, the only domestic league that matters is the English domestic league. All the others are just held because there’s not much to do in the bits of the world that aren’t here on a Saturday)  does not value the Premier League as much as the Champions League is all too easy to level in his direction because, well, for several years it was true.

      Not that Benitez would have dismissed the opportunity to win the Premier League, obviously, just that he knew his side, with resources scant by the gluttonous standards of Manchester United and Chelsea, were better equipped to deal with the intricate skirmishes offered by a 13-game competition than a 38-game one.

      So, to an extent, he prioritised the tournament he thought he could win, knowing full well Liverpool were capable of finishing in the Champions League slots domestically but not likely, with a side of £6 million players in a league won by £20 million ones, to stay the course at the top.

      He did win it, of course, in the most remarkable final, the most remarkable upset, in the recent history of European competition. Dortmund beating Juventus in 1997 comes close, perhaps, but that aside nothing quite so strange has happened since Nigel Spink and Aston Villa overcame the mighty Bayern Munich in 1982. That Istanbul, the miracle thereof, has been forgotten so easily, as though it were a mere fevered dream, as though it was so unlikely a triumph that it could not possibly have happened, speaks volumes about modern football fans.

      That, though, is a different story for a different day, probably one when Alan Curbishley is announced as Benitez’s successor by Tom Hicks, George Gillett and whichever unfortunate they bring in to give them the money they claimed they had – another dream, another fever – on the same day that Fernando Torres moves to Inter Milan, Javier Mascherano to Barcelona and Steven Gerrard to Real Madrid and £130 million goes straight into the hands of RBS Liverpool’s coffers.

      If anything, Benitez has, this season, gone too far the other way, and his priority is domestic pre-eminence. Liverpool’s travails in Europe – though they ran into a side in inspired form in Florence and did not, in truth, deserve to lose to Lyon, a game in which a draw would have been an eminently fair result – can be largely attached to the fact that Benitez has built a side designed, purely and simply, to swat aside the lesser lights of the Premier League. He wanted, this season, to avoid the draws that cost Liverpool so dear last time around. He has, at least, achieved that, though it will come as no consolation as he looks around the wreckage of what was supposed to be his defining season in England.

      Whelan’s critique, though, is apt in its lack of substance. Much of what is thrown at Benitez is based on prejudice and supposition. The obvious example – zonal marking, a practise employed throughout the game, throughout England (what do you think putting a man on the post is?) – comes up whenever Liverpool concede a goal from a set-piece. Yet, as Benitez rightly points out, he could compile a DVD of dozens, hundreds of goals conceded while man-marking. Neither system is flawless, both are susceptible to quality delivery and both rely on defenders attacking the aerial ball. A manager can do little if, as has been the case at Anfield all too often this season, his defenders choose not to.

      Similarly, the idea that Benitez’s sides are too cautious is wheeled out by the lazy pundit whenever a convenient stick is needed to beat a manager who has never been truly understood in this country is needed. It has a vague basis in fact, but such a stark analysis is overly simplistic.

      Likewise, his love of unnecessary tinkering. Or the most recent addition to the critic’s canon, that Benitez is too devoted to his 4-2-3-1 system, that he will not change it. When he does start to change it, of course, expect a barrage of abuse about his tactical befuddlement.

      That is not to say Benitez is above reproach, that he has not made mistakes. He must be held accountable for the inexplicable lack of quality in depth beyond Liverpool’s first 15 or 16 players, financial restrictions or no. His man-management approach may be too inflexible in light of some of the complicated characters who call the Anfield dressing room home. The buck stops with the manager, of course, and he must, above all, take responsibility for Liverpool’s imploding campaign. There are enough genuine concerns, genuine issues with which to take him to task. Inventing new ones, Ronnie, or choosing hackneyed old complaints resurrected from seasons past is not necessary.

      http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rorysmith/100003028/criticise-benitez-for-what-he-does-not-what-he-doesnt/
      Reprobate
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 11,055 posts | 436 
      • Avatar by Kitster29@Deviantart.com
      Re: Is Rafa the right man?
      Reply #2290: Nov 03, 2009 11:19:27 am
      Probably the most well-balanced article on the matter that I've read.
      RedLFCBlood
      • Guest
      Re: Is Rafa the right man?
      Reply #2291: Nov 03, 2009 11:49:57 am
      Respect to Rory Smith whilst the media vultures are circling Anfield waiting to rip pieces from Rafa's rotting corpse its enlightening to read such a well balanced fair argument from Rory Smith as he says Rafa is not beyond reproach, but at least he has the sense to come out and say if your going to pick at Rafa's failings make sure it has substance and validity, quality article and a very good read.
      hardcoresoldier
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 5,160 posts | 1288 
      • The Liverpool Way is The Only Way
      Re: Is Rafa the right man?
      Reply #2292: Nov 03, 2009 11:54:28 am
      I read a lot about why Rafa should stay, by those who voted, but I see their are 55(so far) of you that say you want a change, yet I see no argument as to why you want Rafa replaced, how about some no voters giving their reasons.

      Maybe they don't want to show themselves. Rafa is the right man, he's just fighting an uphill battle against the Yank tossers. All i keep hearing is Guus Hiddink, Jose Mourinho and MON (what the F**k!). Mourinho is used to having millions and millions to spend, would he cope with this situation?, would he F**k!

      As Blood has pointed out, Rafa's net spend every season has been a pittance. He has had to sell to buy, and wheel and deal in the market. This is just not good enough if he is expected to win the league.

      What other manager could do a better job than Rafa in this position?

      No f**ker could, and that is a F***ing FACT!

      Now all you fuckers who have voted 'no' to Rafa, let's hear your alternatives please.

      Stop hiding behind the anonymity of the poll and speak out please.

      Or are you 'media sheep' devoid of your own opinions and unable to construct a valid opinion on who you feel would come in and do a better job?

      This is a forum, and i will respect the views of any forumite who can put forward a valid argument.
      RedLFCBlood
      • Guest
      Re: Is Rafa the right man?
      Reply #2293: Nov 03, 2009 12:01:35 pm
      Just for further insight this is the squad Rafa took over from Houllier with a comparison of Rafa's squad today you can draw your own conclusions and opinions as ive added this solely for the purpose of debate.

      Alastair
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 1,414 posts |
      • Biggidy Biggidy Boom!
      Re: Is Rafa the right man?
      Reply #2294: Nov 03, 2009 12:11:57 pm
      Compare the two and whilst our team now is better from GK to defence to midfield, I reckon Houllier had better options upfront, excluding Torres, we have no one. Houllier had Baros, Owen and Heskey, then Pongolle and Diouf could do a job too.
      HUYTON RED
      • Forum Legend - Shankly
      • ******

      • 40,438 posts | 8656 
      Re: Is Rafa the right man?
      Reply #2295: Nov 03, 2009 12:17:32 pm
      OWNERS MUST BE YANKED FROM ANFIELD
      Tuesday November 3,2009


      SACKING Rafa ­Benitez would be the easy bit. Then what? Before you answer, remember who would be making the decision.

      Dismissing managers is always the simplest part of the process at any football club after dismal results. The chief executive usually does the firing, with a short “sorry it has come to this” speech, but the bullet is fired by whoever is in control of the club.

      And though “control” might just be exaggerating the divided direction dictated by Liverpool’s joint owners, it is they who will decide whether Benitez’s troubled tenure will be terminated.

      More worryingly for anyone who cares about the club, Thomas Ollis Hicks Snr and George Nield Gillett Jnr would also decide what to do next. Why imagine they would steer a sensible course? They have spent 32 months at the helm, wrestling for control , while the club heads for the rocks.

      Benitez has also made mistakes. Of course he has. So does every manager. So does every human.

      The first major criticism of Benitez is that he has spent a lot of time and a reasonable amount of money buying dross.

      The second is that he has prioritised the Champions League instead of the Premier League. A fair-minded jury would convict him of both charges. But there would be persuasive mitigation. The paucity of most Liverpool players is emphasised by the outstanding ability of Steven Gerrard and Fernando Torres, so at least give Benitez credit for those two.

      The first act of Benitez as Liverpool manager was to fly to Portugal, where England were competing in Euro 2004, and persuade Gerrard not to join Chelsea.

      Three summers later, Benitez bagged the 23-year-old Torres, jumping in when other top clubs were still assessing potential.

      And as for the charge of concentrating on Europe, well, again, commend him for what he has achieved.

      Under Benitez, Liverpool have played more European matches than they did under Bill Shankly and won more games than they did under Bob Paisley.

      They have reached two finals and won one. Benitez had already won the UEFA Cup with Valencia. With his chubby frame and his specs, he is the Great Soprendo of European football.

      Now it is said that he needs to pull another rabbit out of the hat tomorrow in Lyon and conjure convincing form in the following couple of domestic fixtures to keep his job – which brings us back to the terrifying prospect of both Hicks and Gillett appointing a successor.

      The last time they considered a Rafa replacement, the Americans came up with Jürgen Klinsmann. They did not know who he was, but that did not stop them undermining Benitez by holding talks.

      Since then, Klinsmann’s standing has nosedived as dramatically as he used to as a player.

      Benitez, for all his flaws and his refusal to acknowledge them, is one of Europe’s elite managers.

      And the systemic, structural problems at Liverpool – for instance new debts that are too big and an old ground that is too small – ensure any manager cannot compete with Manchester United, Chelsea and, recently, Manchester City.

      Now look at who caused those debts and who have failed to fulfil the pledge of a new stadium.

      It is not the manager who needs to change.



      http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/137816/Owners-must-be-yanked-from-Anfield/
      RedLFCBlood
      • Guest
      Re: Is Rafa the right man?
      Reply #2296: Nov 03, 2009 12:26:19 pm
      Respect to Mick Dennis from the Daily express also, Its good to see some Journalists looking at the facts and giving a fair reasoned assessment on the situation we find ourselves in. We have been lied to and cheated by the Yanks .... can any one remember Rafa lying & cheating to them ?
      stuey
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 36,041 posts | 3966 
      Re: Is Rafa the right man?
      Reply #2297: Nov 03, 2009 12:40:35 pm
      The Rory Smith article is an objective,informed analysis of the managers role in the LFC conundrum and goes to great lengths to fairly apportion or more correctly reapportion any blame being hurled about by the shitehawk Whelan and his ilk.
      Esoteric Mist
      • Forum Billy Liddell
      • ****

      • 577 posts | -5 
      Re: Is Rafa the right man?
      Reply #2298: Nov 03, 2009 01:47:39 pm
      Great article.
      bartman49
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 2,157 posts | 37 
      Re: Is Rafa the right man?
      Reply #2299: Nov 03, 2009 03:08:49 pm
      Surely a manager as good as Rafa is allowed a bad season. I know through years of watching LFC from afar that Rafa is the best thing to happen to the club since Kenny signed as player/manager. That was such an importabnt time back then, Joe had left and no-one knew which direction the club would go, as it turned out they made a really good decistion. A mistake by the owners now could set us back years.

      Everyone has a time when things go against you. We have an horrendous injury list, we have a bug going through the club, we have all and Saundra attacking Benitaz, and his record is decent, he has taken this club to two Euro cup finals an FA cup final and a League cup final, all that in a time when he has much less to work from than other top clubs, and yet wel demand more. Rafa will get us to where he wants us to be, and he will win the title. He has to work a little at a time, no 100mill for Rafa, so he has to do it another way. A little patience is needed from us.

      And yet as he's such a poor manager no other club will touch him, isn't that how it works, listening to people like Welan and Collymore you would think he couldn't find another club if he wanted one, he's that bad. Yet the top club in Italy were after him, the top club in Spain want him, there are many more clubs who would love Rafa to manage them. I believe he is the most wanted man in football right now. And all because he's a bad manager.

      Quick Reply