I'll try to explain it again, now don't go and twist my words again. I'm all for using an out and out striker, all I said is that it would need a shift in system. A system that Klopp has been working on for almost two years with Firmino at the center of it. You don't change systems over night. Bringing in someone like Lukaku, Kane, Ibrahimovic, Aguero (he's a different type) would completely change the way we set up. Not only would the formation likely shift to a 4-2-3-1 (for which we don't have the midfielders right now) our whole pressing shape would have to change aswell because the way we set up would look completely different in both defensive and offensive situations. It would take weeks / months to get players used to a new set up and a new way of pressing, the angles are completely different. Hell the players sometimes still struggle with the current way we press and they've been training on it for quite a while.
This is so dogmatic in it's insistence. You're basically saying we cannot play 4-3-3 unless Firmino is the false 9 of this attack.
Who or what have you read, or been told by, that without Bobby this system would not be able to continue?
Can you not hear yourself Danzel?
It's no different from what Klopp said recently about AOC learning how to play in a new system, a genuine striker could also do that.
Honestly, you're talking like this system is so delicate that the right personnel must be used, and if Firmino isn't used the system dies on it's arse.
Arguably, when Mane doesn't play the system does die because that genuine quality and goal threat isn't part of the team. The same cannot definitely be said of Firmino.
If you don't see how an out and out striker would impact Mane's and Salah's numbers either you don't get the way our front three works or you just don't want to get it. Where do these strikers usually position themselves? Most of the time you can draw a square box around their position: the width of the six yard box and in between both CB's moving sligtly to the left and right. The position they would take in front of goal is the exact space which Mane and Salah are looking to attack when Firmino drops deep. Why do you think both of them find themselves in front of goal so often? Playing a #9 in the current system would just make them get in each other's way and Mane and Salah would have to play more as wingers rather than inside forwards.
You're trying to make others sound like they don't know what they're talking about and only you and handful of others do.
Firmino isn't the only player in the world who can drop deep out of position, but because you believe he practically is, it means that the likes of Salah and Mane can't get a run in on the danger zone. Not true. Years ago you'd see many teams playing with two strikers who both hunted in and around the box. If we had one like that today, both Mane and Salah from either flank could come in and pair that danger zone. It's not about making room for 1 attacker to attack, the area of attack isn't confined to one player holding that area.
SSS. Sterling, Suarez and Sturridge. They could all move, rotate, find space, make space, link up and all score goals and there was two genuine goalscorers in that team - that worked. The goals were well spread then but this seems to have been airbrushed from history and now, only a rigid, structured attack consisting specific personnel will get a good spread of goals. There's no evidence anywhere in the world of football that suggests that what you're saying is true and that it cannot be veered away from by swapping a false #9 to a real #9. Here's something radical, I reckon if that swap was made, we'd score even more goals!
Have a look at this reminder to the way we set out with SSS:http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1998440-analysing-the-genius-of-liverpools-suarez-sturridge-sterling-combination
Now have a look at the GF in both Rodgers' and Klopp's first 108 games:https://www.lfcreds.com/reds/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.mirror.co.uk%2Fincoming%2Farticle11205508.ece%2FALTERNATES%2Fs615b%2FScreen-Shot-2017-09-20-at-084412.jpg&hash=842685172c8ba47b30642c042110a214
I know we all like to laud how good our current attack is, but compared to that novice's it's still lags behind his and we all practically realise that we STILL need to outscore our opponents to win because we STILL can't defend. So scoring goals, quite a lot of goals is going to be a key ingredient for us again this season.
That's not the only thing, while #9's would indeed have a better scoring record than Firmino, their creative numbers are nearly non-existant. Most of them usually don't get more than a handful assists a season because all they care about at the end of the season is the number in their "goals scored"-column. Made even more obvious by their insistance on taking the penalties / set pieces to boost their numbers when they clearly suck at penalties (Aguero and Lukaku for example). Is there really that big a difference between a striker with 20 goals and 5 assists in a season or Firmino who easily gets double figures in both categories? So yes, it would impact their numbers, but it would not "stop" them from scoring like you put it.
No they don't just care about their goals scored column, they care about scoring and winning matches. And in that regard they are tuned to be ruthless as well as selfish. This doesn't mean they aren't capable of playing a team mate in, ala Daniel Sturridge for Henderson against Leicester. In 40 minutes of football he's already provided an assist in which Firmino has failed to do in 180 minutes. So, again, you're stretching their (#9's) capabilities and painting a picture that they can only get you goals.
Then to the point where I apparently tried to justify Sturridge not being in the team. I clearly said that Sturridge is a bit of hybrid in that he also likes to drop deep, just like Firmino and that he can create the same spaces. That's probably why Klopp insists on keeping him. Players like that are hard to come by. The only problem there being, while he does indeed create the same spaces, he doesn't create space for a team mate, he's only always trying to make space for himself. That's an issue. Whenever Sturridge comes on, it disrupts the rhythm of the front three.
You've sort of contradicted yourself here. Because you quite rightly say Sturridge will drop deep but he only creates this space he vacates for himself - how does that work exactly? Haven't you seen him drop deep and then look to dink, chip or play a through ball to a team mate who has entered the space he vacated? The only time he's creating space for himself is when he is in that danger zone in the box - WHAT ANY GOOD STRIKER WILL DO. He will roll off the defender and peel away to make that space for himself, to make something happen, to use his instinct as the furthest man forward to give him that second or two in which to ready himself. This is what all good strikers do, but for you it's an issue.
Whenever Sturridge comes on, he has the card board cut out of Firmino to his left and the front three looks completely different once 2 of the 3 positions have been changed. You haven't seen him with Mane and Salah so you cannot make those same forgone conclusions. Yet, his movement may well be different to Firmino's but that doesn't mean an understanding between the front 3 cannot be forged. That's how system's and the personnel within them work - on understanding each other just like SSS did.
Does Firmino's position look like the position a striker would be in the majority of a game? No. You know why? Because he isn't a striker nor is he being played as one. Look at the diamond we create in midfield. We play two wide forwards in Mane and Salah and they are our two main threats. He is a playmaker and closer to a #10 than he'll ever be to a #9. Plenty of other arguments. When we defend, look at our defensive shape. Firmino is the one always dropping into midfield. He pops up everywhere, sometimes even at our own corner flag. Is that something a striker would be asked to do? Don't think so. When we counter attack, which player do you often see highest up the pitch? Sure as hell isn't Firmino. You know why? Because he isn't a striker nor is he being played as one. Most of the time you'll find either Mane or Salah being highest up the pitch. Try to think of all the counter attacking goals we've scored. How often has Firmino been the goal scorer of this type of attacks? Usually he's the one linking the play or giving the last pass with someone else being at the end of it. Again, wouldn't a striker be at the end of most counter attacks?
No. And that's half our problem sometimes because more often than not we're up against low block teams where his industry and tenacity become almost null and void for that position. You need guile and nuance and instinct to help break those teams down and unfortunately Firmino doesn't do this often, if at all. That's left to the individual brilliance of someone like Mane or Coutinho when an additionally tuned goal threat also needs to be lurking in and around those defences making space for himself to break the deadlock.
If he isn't being played as a striker and all that hard work he gets through at the corner flags and wherever then he could, and arguably should be deployed elsewhere in the team as a #8 or a #10. Sacrificing goal threat from a such a position to add work rate around the pitch elsewhere isn't the only solution to a system Danzel. And recently, as was the case last year, we've paid for that, like it or not.
That's my opinion, I'm not really bothered whether you agree with it or not - but remember there is more than one way to skin a cat. And just because you and others strictly adhere to what Klopp does here does not mean it's the only way to skin that cat and I reserve the right to offer opinion, and disagree with this