Trending Topics

      Next match: LFC v Spurs [Premier League] Sun 31st Mar @ 4:30 pm
      Anfield

      Today is the 25th of March and on this date LFC's match record is P24 W13 D5 L6

      LFC Reds Poll

      Q. Should we sell or keep Sturridge? (Summer 2017)

      Sell.
      26 (25.5%)
      Keep.
      57 (55.9%)
      Not bothered.
      19 (18.6%)

      Total Members Voted: 100

      Daniel Sturridge Player Thread

      Read 291003 times
      0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
      Beerbelly
      • Banned
      • *****

      • 6,983 posts | 2054 
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4410: Sep 28, 2017 08:12:15 am

      I'll try to explain it again, now don't go and twist my words again. I'm all for using an out and out striker, all I said is that it would need a shift in system. A system that Klopp has been working on for almost two years with Firmino at the center of it. You don't change systems over night. Bringing in someone like Lukaku, Kane, Ibrahimovic, Aguero (he's a different type) would completely change the way we set up. Not only would the formation likely shift to a 4-2-3-1 (for which we don't have the midfielders right now) our whole pressing shape would have to change aswell because the way we set up would look completely different in both defensive and offensive situations. It would take weeks / months to get players used to a new set up and a new way of pressing, the angles are completely different. Hell the players sometimes still struggle with the current way we press and they've been training on it for quite a while.

      This is so dogmatic in it's insistence. You're basically saying we cannot play 4-3-3 unless Firmino is the false 9 of this attack.

      Who or what have you read, or been told by, that without Bobby this system would not be able to continue?

      Can you not hear yourself Danzel?

      It's no different from what Klopp said recently about AOC learning how to play in a new system, a genuine striker could also do that.

      Honestly, you're talking like this system is so delicate that the right personnel must be used, and if Firmino isn't used the system dies on it's arse.

      Arguably, when Mane doesn't play the system does die because that genuine quality and goal threat isn't part of the team. The same cannot definitely be said of Firmino.

      Quote
      If you don't see how an out and out striker would impact Mane's and Salah's numbers either you don't get the way our front three works or you just don't want to get it. Where do these strikers usually position themselves? Most of the time you can draw a square box around their position: the width of the six yard box and in between both CB's moving sligtly to the left and right. The position they would take in front of goal is the exact space which Mane and Salah are looking to attack when Firmino drops deep. Why do you think both of them find themselves in front of goal so often? Playing a #9 in the current system would just make them get in each other's way and Mane and Salah would have to play more as wingers rather than inside forwards.

      You're trying to make others sound like they don't know what they're talking about and only you and handful of others do.

      Firmino isn't the only player in the world who can drop deep out of position, but because you believe he practically is, it means that the likes of Salah and Mane can't get a run in on the danger zone. Not true. Years ago you'd see many teams playing with two strikers who both hunted in and around the box. If we had one like that today, both Mane and Salah from either flank could come in and pair that danger zone. It's not about making room for 1 attacker to attack, the area of attack isn't confined to one player holding that area.   

      SSS. Sterling, Suarez and Sturridge. They could all move, rotate, find space, make space, link up and all score goals and there was two genuine goalscorers in that team - that worked. The goals were well spread then but this seems to have been airbrushed from history and now, only a rigid, structured attack consisting specific personnel will get a good spread of goals. There's no evidence anywhere in the world of football that suggests that what you're saying is true and that it cannot be veered away from by swapping a false #9 to a real #9. Here's something radical, I reckon if that swap was made, we'd score even more goals!

      Have a look at this reminder to the way we set out with SSS:

      http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1998440-analysing-the-genius-of-liverpools-suarez-sturridge-sterling-combination

      Now have a look at the GF in both Rodgers' and Klopp's  first 108 games:

      https://www.lfcreds.com/reds/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.mirror.co.uk%2Fincoming%2Farticle11205508.ece%2FALTERNATES%2Fs615b%2FScreen-Shot-2017-09-20-at-084412.jpg&hash=842685172c8ba47b30642c042110a214

      I know we all like to laud how good our current attack is, but compared to that novice's it's still lags behind his and we all practically realise that we STILL need to outscore our opponents to win because we STILL can't defend. So scoring goals, quite a lot of goals is going to be a key ingredient for us again this season.

      Quote
      That's not the only thing, while #9's would indeed have a better scoring record than Firmino, their creative numbers are nearly non-existant. Most of them usually don't get more than a handful assists a season because all they care about at the end of the season is the number in their "goals scored"-column. Made even more obvious by their insistance on taking the penalties / set pieces to boost their numbers when they clearly suck at penalties (Aguero and Lukaku for example). Is there really that big a difference between a striker with 20 goals and 5 assists in a season or Firmino who easily gets double figures in both categories? So yes, it would impact their numbers, but it would not "stop" them from scoring like you put it.

      No they don't just care about their goals scored column, they care about scoring and winning matches. And in that regard they are tuned to be ruthless as well as selfish. This doesn't mean they aren't capable of playing a team mate in, ala Daniel Sturridge for Henderson against Leicester. In 40 minutes of football he's already provided an assist in which Firmino has failed to do in 180 minutes. So, again, you're stretching their (#9's) capabilities and painting a picture that they can only get you goals.

      Quote
      Then to the point where I apparently tried to justify Sturridge not being in the team. I clearly said that Sturridge is a bit of hybrid in that he also likes to drop deep, just like Firmino and that he can create the same spaces. That's probably why Klopp insists on keeping him. Players like that are hard to come by. The only problem there being, while he does indeed create the same spaces, he doesn't create space for a team mate, he's only always trying to make space for himself. That's an issue. Whenever Sturridge comes on, it disrupts the rhythm of the front three.

      You've sort of contradicted yourself here. Because you quite rightly say Sturridge will drop deep but he only creates this space he vacates for himself - how does that work exactly? Haven't you seen him drop deep and then look to dink, chip or play a through ball to a team mate who has entered the space he vacated? The only time he's creating space for himself is when he is in that danger zone in the box - WHAT ANY GOOD STRIKER WILL DO. He will roll off the defender and peel away to make that space for himself, to make something happen, to use his instinct as the furthest man forward to give him that second or two in which to ready himself. This is what all good strikers do, but for you it's an issue.

      Whenever Sturridge comes on, he has the card board cut out of Firmino to his left and the front three looks completely different once 2 of the 3 positions have been changed. You haven't seen him with Mane and Salah so you cannot make those same forgone conclusions. Yet, his movement may well be different to Firmino's but that doesn't mean an understanding between the front 3 cannot be forged. That's how system's and the personnel within them work - on understanding each other just like SSS did.

      Quote
      Does Firmino's position look like the position a striker would be in the majority of a game? No. You know why? Because he isn't a striker nor is he being played as one. Look at the diamond we create in midfield. We play two wide forwards in Mane and Salah and they are our two main threats. He is a playmaker and closer to a #10 than he'll ever be to a #9. Plenty of other arguments. When we defend, look at our defensive shape. Firmino is the one always dropping into midfield. He pops up everywhere, sometimes even at our own corner flag. Is that something a striker would be asked to do? Don't think so. When we counter attack, which player do you often see highest up the pitch? Sure as hell isn't Firmino. You know why? Because he isn't a striker nor is he being played as one. Most of the time you'll find either Mane or Salah being highest up the pitch. Try to think of all the counter attacking goals we've scored. How often has Firmino been the goal scorer of this type of attacks? Usually he's the one linking the play or giving the last pass with someone else being at the end of it. Again, wouldn't a striker be at the end of most counter attacks?

      No. And that's half our problem sometimes because more often than not we're up against low block teams where his industry and tenacity become almost null and void for that position. You need guile and nuance and instinct to help break those teams down and unfortunately Firmino doesn't do this often, if at all. That's left to the individual brilliance of someone like Mane or Coutinho when an additionally tuned goal threat also needs to be lurking in and around those defences making space for himself to break the deadlock.

      If he isn't being played as a striker and all that hard work he gets through at the corner flags and wherever then he could, and arguably should be deployed elsewhere in the team as a #8 or a #10. Sacrificing goal threat from a such a position to add work rate around the pitch elsewhere isn't the only solution to a system Danzel. And recently, as was the case last year, we've paid for that, like it or not.

      That's my opinion, I'm not really bothered whether you agree with it or not - but remember there is more than one way to skin a cat. And just because you and others strictly adhere to what Klopp does here does not mean it's the only way to skin that cat and I reserve the right to offer opinion, and disagree with this agenda opinion.
      « Last Edit: Sep 28, 2017 10:37:16 am by Beerbelly »
      bigmick
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 10,077 posts | 2766 
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4411: Sep 28, 2017 09:24:25 am
      Firstly Danzel I wasn't referring to you mate, I have no idea who you are.

      Secondly I like your post here, (and I've read back a few too), but for someone who claims to like discussion you are a bit dismissive for my taste, a bit reluctant to accept there are other ways of doing things.

      Time will tell of course, but it is my contention that you can line up however you like, you can press however you like, you can drift out of position as much as you like, you can defend in zones, mobile phones or traffic cones but there are a couple of givens in football in England if you want to do any good.

      Here are some off the top of my head;

      1. Your goalie must be able to save stuff. He must be brave, he must be assured under the high ball.

      2. You must have a good defence. That doesn't mean you lead the "duals won" chart, or the "interceptions" or even the "shots on target conceded" one. It means you mustn't concede very many goals, and crucially you must be able to accept periods of sustained pressure and hold out. You must be able to defend set pieces.

      3. Your midfield and indeed the rest of the team must be able to tough it out in a battle.

      4. You need some goals from around the team, including midfielders and centre backs.

      5. You must have a centre forward who scores his share of goals. . To see what sort of "share" is required, compare him to centre forwards in other successful teams.


      There you go mate, football is a simpler game than you think.
      Dadorious
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • *****
      • 8,778 posts | 1005 
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4412: Sep 28, 2017 10:20:27 am
      People really need to let go of Rodgers cock, stroking it at every opportunity when we concede a goal, draw a game, or Firmino fails to score is f**king tedious.

      We're told not to refer to stats to defend Firmino or any other point but we're constantly reminded of the Klopp v Rodgers first 109 game comparison. One that is as flawed as fukn any I have seen and is inclusive of a player that single handedly hit 30+ league goals in a season whilst arguably being the best in the world at that point. A player of who's quality J├╝rgen didn't and still doesn't have.

      Sick of fukn reading about an average manager 3 years later who had a fair crack at a job and simply wasn't good enough.
      bmck
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • *****
      • 5,756 posts | 774 
      • YNWA
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4413: Sep 28, 2017 10:37:05 am
      People really need to let go of Rodgers cock, stroking it at every opportunity when we concede a goal, draw a game, or Firmino fails to score is f**king tedious.

      We're told not to refer to stats to defend Firmino or any other point but we're constantly reminded of the Klopp v Rodgers first 109 game comparison. One that is as flawed as fukn any I have seen and is inclusive of a player that single handedly hit 30+ league goals in a season whilst arguably being the best in the world at that point. A player of who's quality J├╝rgen didn't and still doesn't have.

      Sick of fukn reading about an average manager 3 years later who had a fair crack at a job and simply wasn't good enough.

      Not that I'm holding anyone's cock, but some people can't resist kicking him in the balls. Two way street.

      Just on Klopp not having player on level of Luis, Coutinho is valued at about 120million, so a top top quality guy. Maybe doesn't get the number of goals Luis did, but are we seeing the best of him?!

      Could also argue that BR brought Luis on from not being prolific, to being very prolific.
      And round we go ....
      Beerbelly
      • Banned
      • *****

      • 6,983 posts | 2054 
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4414: Sep 28, 2017 10:44:58 am
      Not that I'm holding anyone's cock, but some people can't resist kicking him in the balls. Two way street.

      Just on Klopp not having player on level of Luis, Coutinho is valued at about 120million, so a top top quality guy. Maybe doesn't get the number of goals Luis did, but are we seeing the best of him?!

      Could also argue that BR brought Luis on from not being prolific, to being very prolific.
      And round we go ....

      Unless they're mocking his triangles or his teeth then he can't be referenced on here; especially for footballing reasons as the dullard clearly gets upset.
      bigmick
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 10,077 posts | 2766 
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4415: Sep 28, 2017 10:49:27 am
      People really need to let go of Rodgers cock, stroking it at every opportunity when we concede a goal, draw a game, or Firmino fails to score is f**king tedious.

      We're told not to refer to stats to defend Firmino or any other point but we're constantly reminded of the Klopp v Rodgers first 109 game comparison. One that is as flawed as fukn any I have seen and is inclusive of a player that single handedly hit 30+ league goals in a season whilst arguably being the best in the world at that point. A player of who's quality J├╝rgen didn't and still doesn't have.

      Sick of fukn reading about an average manager 3 years later who had a fair crack at a job and simply wasn't good enough.

      Rodgers? Where did THAT come from? WTF has the much talked about diminutive northern Irishman got to do with this discussion?

      You've either got the wrong thread, or are like some of your "bumchums" (as we used to say at school ;D) obsessed with him.

      Very strange cookie you are son.

      Dadorious
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • *****
      • 8,778 posts | 1005 
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4416: Sep 28, 2017 11:41:38 am
      Not that I'm holding anyone's cock, but some people can't resist kicking him in the balls. Two way street.

      Just on Klopp not having player on level of Luis, Coutinho is valued at about 120million, so a top top quality guy. Maybe doesn't get the number of goals Luis did, but are we seeing the best of him?!

      Could also argue that BR brought Luis on from not being prolific, to being very prolific.
      And round we go ....
      No one is kicking him on the contrary us " bumchums" only bring him into conversation when one of the strokers can't resist to draw comparison with him and J├╝rgen and will remind us how he is on par or superior. The worst of it all is the f**king hypocrisy spouted by the two sh*t heads above the  vitriol and witch hunt instigated by them in the Benitez thread was f**king disgraceful. Not going to let them pull the wool over anyone's eyes in here.

      On a side note don't have anything against Rodgers tried hard didn't cut the mustard he's history now good luck to him where he is.
      bmck
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • *****
      • 5,756 posts | 774 
      • YNWA
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4417: Sep 28, 2017 01:30:48 pm
      No one is kicking him on the contrary us " bumchums" only bring him into conversation when one of the strokers can't resist to draw comparison with him and J├╝rgen and will remind us how he is on par or superior. The worst of it all is the f**king hypocrisy spouted by the two sh*t heads above the  vitriol and witch hunt instigated by them in the Benitez thread was f**king disgraceful. Not going to let them pull the wool over anyone's eyes in here.

      On a side note don't have anything against Rodgers tried hard didn't cut the mustard he's history now good luck to him where he is.


      Move over Montagues and Capulets.
      Make way for the Strokers and the Bumchums :)
       :hug:
      « Last Edit: Sep 28, 2017 01:35:08 pm by bmck »
      Beerbelly
      • Banned
      • *****

      • 6,983 posts | 2054 
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4418: Sep 28, 2017 01:54:37 pm
      Move over Montagues and Capulets.
      Make way for the Strokers and the Bumchums :)
       :hug:

      Well, this stroker should set the record straight.

      I haven't instigated anything against Rafa, nor have I made out that Rodgers is a better manager than Klopp.

      The odd one is lying and I really shouldn't have to justify myself against this slur.

      Look at the top of this page, it was purely a football related post.

      Look what it has descended into because I used stats for comparison.

      That alone should really explain the agenda here, because the football discussion quickly took a back seat and the odd one came wading in adding absolutely f**k all to the discussion other than to cause sh*t. He doesn't talk footie, just wakes out of his slumber from time to time and has a rant or two, the bloke is an absolute waste of bandwidth.

      Certain people want certain things discussed and certain things silenced on this forum, and if you don't toe that line you better be prepared for all kinds of lies and allegations thrown your way.

      Thankfully, generally I don't give a f**k for such people.
      Danzel
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 1,021 posts | 873 
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4419: Sep 28, 2017 03:26:08 pm
      The reason Bobby is not at the end of any counters is that he is not quick enough to exploit any such situation, so no point leaving him up Top.
      When have you seen him outpace a defender?

      He is clearly our central forward, In between the two wide forwards and as such of course he is expected to lead the line.

      If you say is true what happens if he is injured or dropped?
      Do we change our style because Sturridge and Solanke are traditional strikers.

      There's a difference between being quick / having pace and having acceleration in a stop / start move. Firmino would outpace the vast majority of the CB's and most of the FB's (there will always be exceptions like Walker, Rose, Valencia, ...) in a sprint over a distance. What he doesn't have, is the acceleration to beat someone like Mane does or even Coutinho. You can hardly say Coutinho is much of a sprinter.

      Of course he is a center forward. Where did I say he isn't? I disputed the fact that he is a striker, not the fact he is a center forward. Being a center forward doesn't make you a striker. Even on Fifa they have both roles: the CF and the ST. For the same reason I called Mane and Salah the 'wide forwards' and not the 'wide strikers' or whatever. When we push high up the pitch, he does lead the line and he's the first to press. However with our front three interchanging quite a lot, there's often someone else 'leading the line'.

      If he gets injured or dropped, Sturridge is Klopp's second choice and obviously rightly so. As I said, in terms of movement, creating space, ... He's pretty close to Firmino and probably that's one of the reasons he's not willing to let him go or hasn't sold him yet. Danny is a quality player, you'll never hear me saying otherwise. The only issue being that he's a bit of liability in a pressing system and that he'd rather shoot than pass the majority of the time. Which of course doesn't matter if he puts his shots in the back of the net all the time, but even he is struggling to finish his chances right now.

      If Solanke plays, I fear a bit for a scenario similar to the one after Christmas last season where we had to play Origi down the middle. Not only did we see a slight change in formation, we looked slow, static, predictable and we struggled scoring. So playing both would mean a bit of shift in formation / tactics. With Sturridge less (more the way we press) than with Solanke (formation wise because we'd need our wide players to provide him with the service he needs).
      Danzel
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 1,021 posts | 873 
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4420: Sep 28, 2017 04:25:56 pm
      Who or what have you read, or been told by, that without Bobby this system would not be able to continue?

      Arguably, when Mane doesn't play the system does die because that genuine quality and goal threat isn't part of the team. The same cannot definitely be said of Firmino.

      I think the system in it's current execution would fall on it's arse when, as you rightly say, Mane doesn't play, but in my opinion (never said it's a fact) also when Firmino doesn't play. Defensively, it also comes a bit short when one of our first eleven #8's is missing (Lallana, Wijnaldum) because as we saw, Can just isn't up to the required standard and has been a liability. That's one of the main worries / criticisms I have with Klopp now. Our first eleven is nearly finished to play Klopp's style, but the alternatives aren't yet what they're supposed to be and when we have injuries to key players, we look a different team.

      Quote
      You're trying to make others sound like they don't know what they're talking about and only you and handful of others do.
      I didn't mean to and it was never my intention to do so. My sincerest apologies if I did come across like that.

      Quote
      Firmino isn't the only player in the world who can drop deep out of position...

      Never said he was. I said we could improve on him and even mentioned some players who are more #9's / more clinical than he is and that would be a massive improvement on Firmino in the current system. It's not only about the dropping deep, it's about everything else he offers. Not too many players around who can offer close to the same in terms of workrate and link up play and still be clinical in front of goal. I'd swap Firmino for Jesus or Dybala straight away for example.

      Quote
      SSS. Sterling, Suarez and Sturridge. They could all move, rotate, find space, make space, link up and all score goals and there was two genuine goalscorers in that team - that worked. The goals were well spread then but this seems to have been airbrushed from history and now, only a rigid, structured attack consisting specific personnel will get a good spread of goals. There's no evidence anywhere in the world of football that suggests that what you're saying is true and that it cannot be veered away from by swapping a false #9 to a real #9. Here's something radical, I reckon if that swap was made, we'd score even more goals!

      Yes and both Sterling and Suarez (and the Sturridge from that season, you can't compare him to the current one) are perfect players for our system and I'd have both of them here in a heartbeat (if Sterling hadn't been such a c**t of course). I'm not against someone more clinical than Firmino or more 'striker' than Firmino. Not at all. I'm just looking for someone who fits the current formation / system rather than bringing in Lukaku for example and having to switch our style of play.

      Quote
      No. And that's half our problem sometimes because more often than not we're up against low block teams where his industry and tenacity become almost null and void for that position. You need guile and nuance and instinct to help break those teams down and unfortunately Firmino doesn't do this often, if at all. That's left to the individual brilliance of someone like Mane or Coutinho when an additionally tuned goal threat also needs to be lurking in and around those defences making space for himself to break the deadlock.

      I agree (for the biggest part), which is why I'm completely in favour of Sturridge getting game time in this kind of games and why I also expect him to start this weekend against Newcastle.

      Quote
      If he isn't being played as a striker and all that hard work he gets through at the corner flags and wherever then he could, and arguably should be deployed elsewhere in the team as a #8 or a #10. Sacrificing goal threat from a such a position to add work rate around the pitch elsewhere isn't the only solution to a system Danzel. And recently, as was the case last year, we've paid for that, like it or not.

      Well yes, he is being played more as a #10 in our system already anyway and as you suggest, I don't think he'd do bad in the #8 role for us either with him having been even a defender early on in his career. My only worry there is that he tends to be a bit wasteful in posession from time to time.

      Quote
      That's my opinion, I'm not really bothered whether you agree with it or not - but remember there is more than one way to skin a cat. And just because you and others strictly adhere to what Klopp does here does not mean it's the only way to skin that cat and I reserve the right to offer opinion, and disagree with this agenda opinion.

      Of course there is more than one way to skin a cat and I do not 'strictly adhere to what Klopp does here'. What I try to do is think in terms of what he's looking for and how he plays / sees the game rather than wanting him to do something that doesn't fit or wanting him to be someone who he's not. I have been critical of Klopp before and I have been dumbfounded by some of his decisions. I do not have an agenda, never will have.
      bigmick
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 10,077 posts | 2766 
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4421: Sep 28, 2017 04:37:20 pm
      Good post that mate, nice one.
      DanMann
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 3,844 posts | 464 
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4422: Sep 28, 2017 07:46:28 pm
      So, Van Dijk rates Sturridge as the best Striker he's played against, and we keep him on the bench.

       :lmao:

      https://youtu.be/YivoIqpCf_s
      PurpleMonkey
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
      • *****

      • 9,555 posts | 1659 
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4423: Sep 28, 2017 07:59:03 pm
      So, Van Dijk rates Sturridge as the best Striker he's played against, and we keep him on the bench.

       :lmao:

      https://youtu.be/YivoIqpCf_s

      What is Klopp suppose to do, play him week in, week out? If he did that, he'd be out for months. The only way I can see Sturridge staying fit and healthy throughout is if he is used sparingly.
      FATKOPITE10
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • *****
      • 9,713 posts | 1615 
      • Liverpool fc give me tourettes
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4424: Sep 28, 2017 08:10:46 pm
      So, Van Dijk rates Sturridge as the best Striker he's played against, and we keep him on the bench.

       :lmao:

      https://youtu.be/YivoIqpCf_s

      Who ? Sturridge or van dijk ?
      Beerbelly
      • Banned
      • *****

      • 6,983 posts | 2054 
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4425: Sep 29, 2017 06:46:14 am
      I think the system in it's current execution would fall on it's arse when, as you rightly say, Mane doesn't play, but in my opinion (never said it's a fact) also when Firmino doesn't play. Defensively, it also comes a bit short when one of our first eleven #8's is missing (Lallana, Wijnaldum) because as we saw, Can just isn't up to the required standard and has been a liability. That's one of the main worries / criticisms I have with Klopp now. Our first eleven is nearly finished to play Klopp's style, but the alternatives aren't yet what they're supposed to be and when we have injuries to key players, we look a different team.
      I didn't mean to and it was never my intention to do so. My sincerest apologies if I did come across like that.

      I can't really add too much to this Danzel, because I basically agree with it - if you get my drift. I honestly believe we'd lose the industry and workload from Firmino which obviously does prop up our attacking quintet in a roundabout way. However, what you'd lose in work-rate I think could essentially be replaced with guile, movement and goals if a proper striker were in situ. You would lose that energy and press, but the press only seems to be optimised against bigger teams anyway, who aren't afraid to come out a bit and have a go. Sure, it would therefore change the dynamic but look at United's game in Moscow for example compared to ours and there's the difference IMO. And no, I'm not advocating a player like Lukaku as I don't really like big cumbersome forwards personally, but your Sturridge, Jesus & Aguero types definitely.

      Quote
      Never said he was. I said we could improve on him and even mentioned some players who are more #9's / more clinical than he is and that would be a massive improvement on Firmino in the current system. It's not only about the dropping deep, it's about everything else he offers. Not too many players around who can offer close to the same in terms of workrate and link up play and still be clinical in front of goal. I'd swap Firmino for Jesus or Dybala straight away for example.

      First and last time I saw that Jesus (the Citeh one right?), was when we got mauled by them this season. And yes, I'd swap him in a heartbeat to. Cracking looking little player and that is the ilk IMHO we need. But going back to what Firmino brings, yes we know he brings work rate and helps his team mates out with assists, but the other day you implied rightly that strikers are generally selfish and play for themselves but wrongly offer little else other than goals.

      Mick posted these stats, here is the top three goal scorers in the league currently, look at their assists:

      Sergio Ag├╝ero
      Man City
      78 mins per goal
      467 mins played
      6 Goals scored
      3 Assists


      Álvaro Morata Chelsea
      76 mins per goal
      457 mins played
      6Goals scored
      2 Assists


      Romelu Lukaku Man Utd
      90 mins per goal
      540 mins played
      6 Goals scored
      1 Assists

      Now look at Firmino:

      Roberto FirminoLiverpool
      230 mins per goal
      460 mins played
      2 Goals scored
      2 Assists

      Even Jesus, who hasn't an assist to his name has got himself 4 goals in less minutes than Firmino, the same as Harry Kane:

      Gabriel Jesus Man City
      82 mins per goal
      327 mins played
      4 Goals scored
      0 Assists

      Frankly, his output isn't really comparable, especially when you consider the 'attack' he is part of. He hasn't got more assists than the top 3 strikers, and he hasn't got the goals either.

      Quote
      Yes and both Sterling and Suarez (and the Sturridge from that season, you can't compare him to the current one) are perfect players for our system and I'd have both of them here in a heartbeat (if Sterling hadn't been such a c**t of course). I'm not against someone more clinical than Firmino or more 'striker' than Firmino. Not at all. I'm just looking for someone who fits the current formation / system rather than bringing in Lukaku for example and having to switch our style of play.


      I wouldn't bring in Lukaku either Danzel. Even though Sturridge isn't quite the same 'player' he was back then, people wrongly believe his pace is the be all and end all to his game. It isn't. Strikers don't need the pace many believe they need you look at players like Rush, Linekar, Shearer, or even Sheringham etc. They were never speed merchants, and even Owen in his later years lost that burst of pace that was initially key to his game, but he was able to modify his game somewhat because (he) strikers still have the instinct, movement, awareness and the ability to finish to carry a considerable threat.

      Given that J├╝rgen hasn't gotten rid of Sturridge and seems for now to be putting a little bit of faith in him, at least by keeping him on at the club, then he may as well give Sturridge (who is a proven quality goalscorer) the time (especially when Firmino isn't on top of his own game), the opportunity to re-modify his game and gather an understanding with players like Mane and Salah.

      For me, it's worth a go. Nothing gained noting lost. But it's pretty much sacrilege around here nowadays for calling out Firmino, and discussing the option of Sturridge in the team because some petty people are more worried about their 'face' on this forum than the team they support. And as such, people are hounded and abused for opinions that go against the grain that the circle of friends on here have tried to push.


      Quote
      I agree (for the biggest part), which is why I'm completely in favour of Sturridge getting game time in this kind of games and why I also expect him to start this weekend against Newcastle.

      Ha didn't see this. Well yes, we agree but then I honestly doubt Sturridge will start against Newcastle - that's my problem with this. I think J├╝rgen will revert to his trusted front three and include Firmino, who to me, seems to be one of the only players who doesn't get rotated in and out the team, for good or bad. And I personally, see it as a wasted opportunity in not trying Sturridge' He's happy to rotate the defence and midfield to the point of becoming dizzy but when it comes to a misfiring forward, who really isn't a forward and a misfiring creator the status quo remains, and I find that frustrating.

      Quote
      Well yes, he is being played more as a #10 in our system already anyway and as you suggest, I don't think he'd do bad in the #8 role for us either with him having been even a defender early on in his career. My only worry there is that he tends to be a bit wasteful in posession from time to time.

      Good point about the possession that is noticeable.

      Quote

      Of course there is more than one way to skin a cat and I do not 'strictly adhere to what Klopp does here'. What I try to do is think in terms of what he's looking for and how he plays / sees the game rather than wanting him to do something that doesn't fit or wanting him to be someone who he's not. I have been critical of Klopp before and I have been dumbfounded by some of his decisions. I do not have an agenda, never will have.

      I understand how you think, that you want to understand what he's looking for. Fair enough. We all watch the game and contrary to some recent claims on here are therefore privy to the display we see come matchday. So, when I see that something isn't working, where you're trying to understand what he's looking to do; I look, or think to myself 'what is the alternative', sometimes alternatives aren't needed where time will fix it, but generally I look to see what can be improved upon, if for example a Plan A: Mane-Firmino-Salah, isn't working properly or tuned right at a specific point in time I think try the more 'regressive-old fashioned-English (heaven forbid!)- orthodox' approach and stick a striker back into the middle of that.

      Anyway, nice chatting with you, it makes a nice change to converse with someone who is open to others' views, without trying to shut them down as being 'this or that'.
      « Last Edit: Sep 29, 2017 11:40:33 am by Beerbelly »
      green_bear
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 1,042 posts | 289 
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4426: Oct 01, 2017 06:28:11 pm
      Sturridge's fans really need to take a long hard look at this game to accept that the lad is nothing more than an impact sub now.
      Couldn't even beat the offside trap.
      AussieRed
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • *****
      • 15,204 posts | 2800 
      • You'll Never Walk Alone
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4427: Oct 01, 2017 06:39:51 pm
      Yep as much as I love Danny, he should never start a game again. Impact sub only, he looks like he's lost his mojo completely.
      noggin
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 1,197 posts | 60 
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4428: Oct 01, 2017 06:48:30 pm
      Didn't take his chance, time for Solanke to start ahead of him.
      bmck
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • *****
      • 5,756 posts | 774 
      • YNWA
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4429: Oct 01, 2017 07:38:23 pm
      So frustrating.
      On the one hand, he hasn't had nearly the crack of the whip Firmino's had, so am tempted to say what do you expect, he's not been given the chance to reach proper sharpness. He can't feel he has the confidence of the manager, and must feel like every time he goes out, he's trying to prove himself.
      On the other hand, he's had chances that I'd expect him to take at least one of, and when not taking chances, he's not contributing as much as the others, his build up play is OK, but he's too easily pushed off the ball, his pace is waning, and he doesn't close down.
      If his MO is that he's the best finisher, needs to take some of those chances.

      Will cough up one excuse for him today, was very little space out there, and ....
      Nah ...
      bigmick
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 10,077 posts | 2766 
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4430: Oct 01, 2017 07:50:13 pm
      No excuse for him today, he was garbage.
      HScRed1
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • *****
      • 14,219 posts | 2866 
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4431: Oct 01, 2017 08:07:12 pm
      Completely slows down the play and when he can't even keep hold of the ball what's the point.

      So sad to see a lethal player now playing with lead in his boots.
      Benito
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 2,463 posts | 164 
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4432: Oct 01, 2017 08:28:42 pm
      Time to cash in
      chats
      • Forum Legend - Shankly
      • *****

      • 21,368 posts | 682 
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4433: Oct 01, 2017 09:00:23 pm
      He's finished at the top level unfortunately. Might get some use out of him from the bench this season but in the summer he's got to go and a proper number 9 has to come in.
      FL Red
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • *****
      • 23,426 posts | 3262 
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4434: Oct 01, 2017 10:03:40 pm
      Injuries derailed him. Shouldn't really be surprised...when we bought him it wasn't like he hadn't struggled to stay healthy.

      He'll never hit his top form again. But for some reason we didn't bring in a replacement or shop him around.
      FATKOPITE10
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • *****
      • 9,713 posts | 1615 
      • Liverpool fc give me tourettes
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4435: Oct 01, 2017 10:10:11 pm
      Interesting to see the stats (yes can't believe i have used that word) but danny has scored 15 pl goals as a sub only 2 behind the likes of solskaer in the all time list of substitute goal scorers in the pl.
      Shabs
      • Forum Legend - Shankly
      • *****

      • 22,358 posts | 2491 
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4436: Oct 01, 2017 11:05:07 pm
      Starting days are behind him & should be used as an impact sub..
      DanMann
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 3,844 posts | 464 
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4437: Oct 01, 2017 11:07:42 pm
      Sturridge's fans really need to take a long hard look at this game to accept that the lad is nothing more than an impact sub now.
      Couldn't even beat the offside trap.

      You mean Liverpool fans? I mean, that would include you no?
      7-King Kenny-7
      • Lives on Sesame Street
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • *****
      • 38,520 posts | 3143 
      • You'll Never Walk Alone!
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4438: Oct 02, 2017 12:07:05 am
      Can't see him having much of a career left, certainly not at the highest level. Could see him going off to Italy or the MLS to be honest.

      He looked like a regular guy off the street today, except I think a regular guy would have played with more effort. He looks slow, his touch is off, passing non-existent, shooting terrible and generally abysmal. 

      This was his chance to prove his doubters and Klopp wrong over his role in the team and he let himself and us down massively.
      bazspeedman
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 11,098 posts | 1097 
      Re: Daniel Sturridge Player Thread
      Reply #4439: Oct 02, 2017 10:59:15 am
      Need to cash in on Stu while he has some value left.

      He is not the striker we need anymore unfortunately.

      Quick Reply