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      The mentality of a top team, how we need to change.

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      Brian78
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      Re: The mentality of a top team, how we need to change.
      Reply #23: Jan 15, 2013 09:06:00 pm
      I don't believe it is being honest Brian.

      The way I see it is quite simple.

      If Rodgers had a winning mentality, he'd adapt his tactics/system/philosophy to try and ensure we win.

      Not remind everyone at every available opportunity 'he hasn't got the players to play his system'.

      That doesn't make me think f**k Rodgers is a born winner, don't know about you?

      And do we have the players? Do we balls, so yes its being honest. To suggest he hasnt got the mentality to win based on that is short ssighted.

      Im not 1 to thrawl through old reports and interviews but Im pretty sure Kenny never said were a top squad and we will compete for the league this season. Rafa moaned about his squad did he not? Has he not got the right mentality?

      The current champions of England claim to need more players in to be challenging. If Man city need players in we certainly do.

      Finally if a pro footballer lets his head tell him hes not good enough based on hearing it from someone elses mouth then they quite simply should not be at Liverpool and possibily not a pro footballer at all. They should be thinking "fook you pal Ill prove you wrong"
      what-a-hit-son
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      Re: The mentality of a top team, how we need to change.
      Reply #24: Jan 15, 2013 09:18:19 pm
      Little bit of togetherness outside of work wouldn't go a miss.

      Back to 1965 :)


      Brian78
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      Re: The mentality of a top team, how we need to change.
      Reply #25: Jan 15, 2013 09:19:43 pm
      Little bit of togetherness outside of work wouldn't go a miss.

      Back to 1965 :)




      Tell ye what mate not sure if your joking but things like that now and again are exactly whats needed
      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: The mentality of a top team, how we need to change.
      Reply #26: Jan 15, 2013 09:24:36 pm
      I'd say we have the players, maybe not to play Rodgers system, but there are systems that would get more from our current crop of players.

      Rodgers chooses to moan about it than do something about it.

      Take United Saturday, a subtle switch to a 4-2-3-1 seen a %100 improvement in us.

      I'm not saying he needs to tell us we'll be top of the league quite the contrary.

      What I'm saying is tell people they aren't good enough and eventually they'll believe it and that will reflect on performances.

      Its a bit like a beaten wife, tell her she's ugly and worthless and that's how she'll feel, that's why many have such a hard time escaping abusive relationships.


      Brian78
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      Re: The mentality of a top team, how we need to change.
      Reply #27: Jan 15, 2013 09:29:51 pm
      I'd say we have the players, maybe not to play Rodgers system, but there are systems that would get more from our current crop of players.

      Rodgers chooses to moan about it than do something about it.

      Take United Saturday, a subtle switch to a 4-2-3-1 seen a %100 improvement in us.

      I'm not saying he needs to tell us we'll be top of the league quite the contrary.

      What I'm saying is tell people they aren't good enough and eventually they'll believe it and that will reflect on performances.

      Its a bit like a beaten wife, tell her she's ugly and worthless and that's how she'll feel, that's why many have such a hard time escaping abusive relationships.




      The ironic thing about having a go at Rodgers hinting some players arent good enough is that a quick thrawl through here in match threads and player threads is that it seems a lot of fans agree with him.

      Ok a kid like Sterling or Suso might be effected by it but the majority of the first team squad are internationals and should only be looking to prove him wrong. If they shrivel up and believe they arent good enough they should not be at Anfield because simply they aent good enough mentally!

      You must have played a bit blood. When your left out or dont get a game whats your first reaction?
      what-a-hit-son
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      Re: The mentality of a top team, how we need to change.
      Reply #28: Jan 15, 2013 09:34:46 pm
      Tell ye what mate not sure if your joking but things like that now and again are exactly whats needed

      Was meant to be light hearted but that picture tells a story. All together outside of work and looking happy.

      My Mum was in a restaurant before Christmas and Enrique and Shelvey were in there and didn't even engage. Enrique with his mates, Shelvey with his. Wouldn't read into that much as times have changed but yeah, wonder if there is much group bonding going on outside of training, travelling and match day, etc?

      Sorry to go off the mentality thing but it does sort of link.
      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: The mentality of a top team, how we need to change.
      Reply #29: Jan 15, 2013 09:45:34 pm
      The ironic thing about having a go at Rodgers hinting some players arent good enough is that a quick thrawl through here in match threads and player threads is that it seems a lot of fans agree with him.

      Were fans on a forum mate, not their manager.

      Would you be inclined to go to worl every day and bust your balls if your gaffer was telling any one who would listen that you're not good enough for his team ?


      a kid like Sterling or Suso might be effected by it but the majority of the first team squad are internationals and should only be looking to prove him wrong. If they shrivel up and believe they arent good enough they should not be at Anfield because simply they aent good enough mentally!

      If only it was that simple Brian, different people respond differently to different methods, some players need encouraging, some players don't, some players need an arm around the shoulder, some don't, some players don't need anything, some do. Personalities are complex, that's what makes us human.

      You must have played a bit blood. When your left out or dont get a game whats your first reaction?

      Can't really answer that honestly mate as I never really got dropped, only time I was ever used as a sub or was subbed off was if I'd had an injury.

      But I guess I'd respond by playing as I always did and that was give every ounce of energy and every bit of fight I had in me, for the good of the team.
      Dannylfc
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      Re: The mentality of a top team, how we need to change.
      Reply #30: Jan 15, 2013 10:15:19 pm
      Can see both sides of the argument to be honest.

      For one, I don't imagine Rodgers in training is screaming at the lads telling them they're not good enough, they cant play his system & they should all F**k off unless they adapt. The manner in which we've seen Suarez, Henderson, Downing & Enrique improve this season actually leads to me to believe he's quite a decent man-manager on the contrary.

      I think what hes doing in the media is pretty clever. On one hand, yeah, you could say it might affect a players mentality if hes hearing how the manager wants to bring in new players. On the other hand, isn't that what we've been screaming for on here for the past 18 months? Its what Gerrard has been asking for in the media this week. Its undoubtedly what Suarez wants to see if hes going to consider staying here. Who's to say its not a veiled statement towards FSG? That we do need players the manager wants if we are to succeed?
      RedWilly
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      Re: The mentality of a top team, how we need to change.
      Reply #31: Jan 15, 2013 11:31:58 pm
      You must have played a bit blood. When your left out or dont get a game whats your first reaction?
      To be honest, I had that for a season, where I got dropped without explanation, at first you knuckle down and show what you can do in training and in the game time you do get....but after a while, you know you're getting hooked at the 65th minute/not gonna start, then it does get to you and you just can't be arsed because you know no matter what, the manager doesn't seem to fancy you.

      But then I haven't got the best in sports psychology working with me :D
      MIRO
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      Re: The mentality of a top team, how we need to change.
      Reply #32: Jan 15, 2013 11:33:44 pm
      Indeed we do & I love their winning mentality.

       ;D
      SM
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      Re: The mentality of a top team, how we need to change.
      Reply #33: Jan 21, 2013 01:04:47 pm
      Very good question Mick and Im surprised it hasnt been discussed more.

      I totally agree and I have posted before about the same thing. We dominated against Spurs but only after going 2 down, same against United the other week. We have proved we are good enough to compete with these teams but our attitude seems to be one of "lets wait and see if we can pinch the result rather than go and get it".

      Are we scared of these sides? I dont know but look at the difference against Norwich - we set out to go at them and play our game with the attitude of "we are better than you and we will show it"....we need that attitude in every game we play.

      what-a-hit-son
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      Re: The mentality of a top team, how we need to change.
      Reply #34: Mar 30, 2013 07:05:02 am
      By Ian Herbert in The Independant the other day:

      Dr Steve Peters: the psychiatrist charged with ridding Anfield of the fear factor
      Dr Steve Peters is the man who transformed Sir Chris Hoy and Victoria Pendleton's careers. For his next trick, he tells Ian Herbert why he hopes the same philosophy will work at Liverpool

      It's about five years since Jamie Carragher's inestimably good autobiography provided some home truths about Liverpool's obsessive quest for a Premier League title. "A championship trophy might not happen for me now," said a player who was only 30 at the time. "It's not impossible and there's no way I'm ever going to accept defeat but without wishing to sound negative, I have no choice but to prepare myself for that possibility…" The obstacle not so much being his own team but everyone else. As Carragher went on to say, Liverpool lost only four league games during the 2007-08 season but still didn't lift the Premier League trophy.
       

      Dr Steve Peters is extremely averse to any implication he knows all about the Premier League environment of the Liverpool squad with whom he works for one day a week – "it's their world, not mine," he repeatedly says – but he has been able to tell the 10 players who have so far knocked on his door at Melwood that Carragher had it spot on.

      Peters' point, fundamental to much of his work in sport which has left Victoria Pendleton and Sir Chris Hoy declaring they would never have won Olympic golds without him, is that titles can only ever be dreams: inspiring, motivating reasons to get up in the morning, which are subject to the vagaries of outside forces and, therefore, something you can never plan for, or expect.

      "If you start going into the realm of the uncontrollable with a pre-defined goal then you are going to start to stress," Peters says, in his first interview about his Liverpool role, which he is juggling with work for UK Athletics, among others. "So I would be guiding Liverpool to say, 'By all means let's commit to the dream and make it happen. But let's not make it a goal and put pressure on ourselves to live up to something that is actually not in our control.'

      "That, to me, is very critical in life. The goals become: 'Let's do the best we can, be prepared as individuals, be prepared as a team, make sure we get everything right.' These are the goals because you can control these. At the end of the day you can't do better than your best." Tell me about it, Roberto Mancini would probably reply. Amid all the talk of Manchester City's flaky title defence, Manchester United's record 74-point haul from 29 games is a widely disregarded factor.

      It won't be easy for Peters – applying a cool common sense to the often heated, sometimes burlesque, world of top-flight football, which is played out with high emotion while the on-looking world gasps and gawps at the latest outburst, misdemeanour, triumph or disaster. But Peters, a "massive find" according to British Cycling's performance director, Dave Brailsford, who ascribes a huge amount of British riders' success to his influence, applies the scientist's rationale.

      The psychiatrist, who has worked at Rampton high security hospital and helped in the search for the Soham killer, Ian Huntley, applies an extended primate analogy – expounding in his best-selling mind-management manual The Chimp Paradox how the brain comprises a rational "human" part and an emotional, rash "chimp" component (with a third part, "the computer", storing information and experiences.)

      The key to happiness and success is managing the inner chimp – the carrier of fear, emotion and irrational thought; the part of you which will always want to jump to an immediate opinion, see things in black and white, think the worst and put you through hell. Managing the chimp allows you to make the logical decisions on the field of play, rather than be bullied by emotion.

      The analogy is purposefully amusing but has a serious scientific base. By using an MRI scanner you can actually see blood flowing into different parts of the brain when you are making rational or emotional decisions. Those Peters has worked with – Craig Bellamy, Ronnie O'Sullivan, Taekwondo athlete Sarah Stevenson and the England rugby team that reached the World Cup final in 2007 – will tell you they are training the brain, a functioning machine, to manage emotion. Every brain is different but the process typically involves a relentless application to the same pre-match preparations.

      Peters tells a story of how, at cycling's last World Championships, he saw Hoy looking at the giant screen over the track to see a rival break a world record. This wasn't a part of the routine and Peters wasn't delighted by what he saw, knowing it would provoke an anxiety.

      Hoy, equipped to fend off the chimp, simply went out and secured his own world record. The chimp is more manageable for some (Hoy) than for others (Pendleton), whose chimp was always highly charged and seeking to hijack her.

      That time-honoured, visceral football practice of getting teams "up for it" is about as useful as setting the title as a goal, incidentally. "There's no evidence that approach actually works," Peters says. "People keep saying this, and anecdotally they talk about it getting the team 'up', but if you actually look at what happens, when the team are in this state or an individual is, their judgement is impaired. They make errors and they then try to correct that by emotional attacks which result in further errors."

      Those attacks can be hugely debilitating in the unforgiving space that football occupies. Peters does not discuss or identify the Liverpool players who have been "trickling in one at a time" to work with him and only Joe Allen has talked about the benefits so far. But on a human level you did wonder how Stewart Downing felt when he found himself on the receiving end of a bruising press conference inquisition into how he deserved to be in Roy Hodgson's England squad last June, even before he'd kicked a ball in the European Championship.

      The Independent's James Scowcroft recalls how, when beginning his career at Ipswich Town in 1994, he was so besieged by criticism from fans unhappy that another popular forward had been sold that his then captain Geraint Williams decided the side would kick towards the heaving North End stand in the first half, keeping Scowcroft 90 yards away from the opprobrium which was at its worst in the second period. "When you're on receiving end of that kind of thing the anxiety consumes you," Scowcroft says. "You wake up thinking about it. It drains your energy."

      This landscape of fear is one Peters has been operating in for 12 years, full-time since 2005. Mancini may care to know that The Chimp Paradox deals extensively with the anxiety and fear which can follow success – for those who feel they have to repeat it even before they have enjoyed it. And though Peters' perspective is that footballers, like the corporate managers who occupy a bruising world, know what they are getting into – "If you want to go into elite football you accept it's part of our job, so there's not much point in complaining after you get in, saying, 'I get scrutinised'" – he considers the negativity punishing and deeply counter-productive.

      "It's generic across every walk of life. There's this hostility and it causes people such untold stress you wonder why we don't say: 'You know, we're only on the planet for a short time, can't we be more constructive?' Sometimes that criticism is not constructive at all, but just a destructive attack on people. I'm not sure that does any good."

      Brailsford said when he met Mancini last year to discuss what football could learn from the Olympians that he was interested in how the Italian managed "big characters, lots of money, potentially challenging players…" But, after four months in football, Peters says he sees the same universal quest for contentment through achievement – multimillionaires though these people might be.

      "We have to accept the factor that these are wealthy guys who do not have to prove anything because they are going to get paid anyway," he says. "But I can see that's not what's driving them. What's driving them is their zest for the club and success with that club. They're very, very loyal."

      The challenge of operating with a team carries complexities that working with Hoy or Pendleton simply did not.

      "[Cycling] is much easier in that sense if you've got one committed individual with one committed event," Peters says. "If I go to a team with, say, 10 people and only five work with me then I am absolutely limited in what I can do with that team."

      And even if the other members of Rodgers' 23-strong first team squad choose to work with him, there is then the difficulty of agreeing how to pursue success. "At the most extreme, you have potentially 10 opinions on how the game should be approached and a coach who's trying to pull all those opinions together. So the power base has, quite correctly, shifted to the coach."

      You can see why Peters gets on so well with Rodgers, whose deep interest in what makes his players tick and what they do when they leave the training ground is something which all those he left behind at Swansea City eulogise about.

      "He is taking it step by step and we can both see it as a long-term process," Peters says. The problem is football's impatience for success – the "chimp" in the game, you might say. Rodgers would probably like to make fifth place his goal, with Aston Villa to play at Anfield tomorrow, but he really dare not. As Carragher put it so presciently: "The trouble we face is the teams in our way."

      http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/dr-steve-peters-the-psychiatrist-charged-with-ridding-anfield-of-the-fear-factor-8554166.html
      Benito
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      Re: The mentality of a top team, how we need to change.
      Reply #35: Mar 30, 2013 12:28:33 pm
      Thanks for the quote, after deep-diving I've just ordered the book off Amazon :) - looks decent enough and a good theory;

      don't set yourself goals that may be unachievable due to external factors, just set out to do the best that you can do.

      For any of this to work though will need full engagement from the squad due to their dependancies on each other, but not clear whether thats currently the case.
      GERNS
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      Re: The mentality of a top team, how we need to change.
      Reply #36: Mar 30, 2013 03:15:26 pm
      We were once a very insular club. Manickly deffensive of anyone discovering our secret of success. Evey one pulled together. No club matters were ever discussed with the media. Transferrs were silent deals until the players signed. Nobody was allowed into our world unless they were a devotee. Players looked out for each other on and off the field with ferocity. There was never publicised criticism from within, and everyone feared the mighty red unstopable runaway train.
       Now we air our greiviences in public, Players have spats on the park. Transferr targets are published before an approach is official. Players winging about lack of apearances.
      Unfortunatly we are now like 99% of other clubs in that respect.
                                                       We deffo need to get back to the LIVERPOOL WAY.

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