Physicality, what's the answer in overcoming it?

 I would have thought that most people who've watched many of our matches this season would agree that when teams sit off us and turn it into a football match, we're a pretty good side. Only Arsenal at Home and possibly the Mancs, Spurs and Chelsea Away games for spells have seen us bettered or battered, and all things being equal we ain't a bad football team. When though teams get after us, snap at us a bit, don't let us play it out from the back, load it into the box and generally play with a bit of physicality, we are generally found wanting. From memory when we came from behind against West Ham was the only time we really cracked it, but even then the injury to Diame looked significant.

 So what is the answer, and do we need one? Should we just take the view that there's little point in changing the system and style of play simply because we don't play against teams who try it on with us very often? Perhaps we might just wait until we get to be so good at what we do that teams lumping it into us won't matter? Or do we perhaps look for a plan B, a gameplan which we revert to against the Stokes and the like, where we change our system to accomodate the opposition? Or perhaps it's none of the above, perhaps we just need different players, players who can mix it as well as they can keep it?

 My initial thoughts are that there lies some truth in all of the solutions. Firstly, I am very much of the opinion that you must be able to compete in order to win football matches, and if the team you are playing against is technically inferior you shouldn't be overly surprised when they get a bit physical. Had I been playting for Oldham today (firstly Liverpool would have won but anyway) I would have played exactly as they did. I would have kicked anything that moved, and I would have harried and hastled for my life. So why were we seemingly unprepared for it, why are we always seemingly not ready for Stoke hitting Kenwyn Jones with long balls, or West Ham hitting Carlton Cole with diagonals? My guess here is that we ARE ready, but we don't posess the players who can deal with it. I've for some time been unconvinced our dream centre half pairing of Agger and Skrtel are quite the World beaters that many on here claim, and I still am. Both for me are pretty centre halves who ought to be playing alongside a stopper. Vidic wouldn't have allowed that game to go the way ot did today, and neither would the fella who I'd bring in to give us more presence. Ashley Williams, I'll post more later or it'll turn into a book.

For a long time I have been worried by our inability to win the first header from long balls. A long term solution would be to sign a more rugged centre half as Coates proved today he certainly isn't up for the fight I don't think Ashley Williams is the answer though - I've seen him bullied in the flesh this season against Everton and his recent comments on Suarez show him to be a bit of a tw*t.

For now perhaps it is a case of acknowledging that we have a particular weakness from the long ball and making sure we concentrate on winning the second ball to limit the damage.

The other choice is to have a player like a Sotirios Kyrgiakos of a few seasons back and slot him in along with Agger and Skrtel in a back 3 with wing backs for games that we know will be physical, and have him on the bench for oppositions plan B should we need. He'd have to be willing to be on low wages, have very little game time and try as best he could to pass from the back.

I do like the centre back pairing of Agger and Skrtel and would be begrudged to split it up, and off the top of my head I can't think of many centre backs in world football who are aerially dominant, good on the ground, available and of course, within our price range.

Think we have to adapt against certain teams.

Real Madrid play fast flowing football until they play Barcelona then they go really negative, Chelsea did the same last year in CL.

Great Liverpool teams of the past did it always remember Beardsley getting dropped for matches against Wimbledon and Millwall by KK.

The Manc scum did it against City this season its a tactical game.

Arsenals biggest downfall when they were good was trying to take on the best teams in Europe with there open attacking style.

BR needs to learn quick that probably only Barcelona in worlds football dont change there style as they are that good, horses for courses.

BRING BACK KIRGYAKOS

I worshipped him as the last greek god.

Of course you adapt to each opposition - something we don't seem to do at present.  Can't remember who it was, but one old pro used to say, you bring in your big boys when up against it - like when we had the likes of Sissoko or Masha (ok he's not so big) but guys who are up for a bit of a fight.

Either that of you have to be so good at keeping the ball (like Barca) that it doesn't matter - but I would say, even Barca have players who can put the boot in when they need it. 

Basically what we need is to use common sense and prevent the big burly centre forward to get off the ground and the simple solution to that is throw somebody in front of him and somebody behind him. It's something Lucas actually does quite well and Allen did well against Fellaini in the Derby.

The truth is though, our centre halves don't like the physical side of the game when they're on the recieving end of it. Skrtel likes to get physical when he can do the bullying but when somebody gives it back, he shits himself unfortunately. Agger, has never looked comfortable against players who give it out. Coates is sh*t every time I see him. Carra is past his best now but I think I'd still play him for his organisation skills because Agger, Skrtel and Coates couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery by the looks of things.

One player who I think does open his mouth and organise us is Wisdom. He looks like a natural leader and coincidentally very few players pull off on to our young right back for the aerial battles. They'd rather test themselves against the more experienced international players than young Andre "Norman" Wisdom. I'd be tempted to throw Wisdom into the middle because at least he looks like he'll win a few headers.

When is Kelly fit he may be the answer loads of ability and gets stuck in?

I agree with the points on the centre halfs and you could add most of our full backs and midfield players to a list that doesn't enjoy the physical side of the game.

Unless we get at least one CB and a midfield player who actually enjoy getting stuck in and then playing football we will continue to struggle against the more physical teams.

My honest opinion is that we don't have enough physical players in our team. I think Skrtel and Agger are overrated as you mentioned and we definitely need a centre back. Carragher and Hyypia would attack the ball as if their lives depended on it, I just don't see that with Skrtel and Agger, sometimes they're second to balls and have a lapse in concentration.

Also we don't have a Vieira type player, a ball-winning midfielder who will sit in front of the back four and mop up. Daft example but a player who has the tactician and tackling traits on Fifa that allows them to read the game well, intercept, tackle, pass (short and long). Some say Lucas fits that role but I personally think he doesn't, the only player we have who can play that role effectively is Gerrard.

Lucas, Allen, Henderson, Shelvey are all too weak IMO and better going forward, Spearing out on loan is probably better than all of them in the DM role. We really missed out on signing Moussa Sissoko, he woulda been perfect to sit back and be the rock in front of the back 4.

My solution would be to drop Stevie even deeper, back to where he started as a ferocious tackling midfielder. He can do it all defensively and can spray long passes from deep for us to launch counters and it'd offer us a more solid defensive dimension. Especially if Coutinho signs, then that should free up Gerrard to focus his game purely on the defence side of things.

Gerrard is getting old now, although he's still our best and most influential player, even ahead of Suarez for me. With that in mind, we need a beast of a defensive midfielder and a quality centre back in the summer that will bring a bit of brittle and steal to the spine of the team. As they say, defence is the best form of attack right? Solve these problems then we have the players to defend and attack, and maybe then we can compete for trophies.

 The only answer to physicality would be to clone Tommy Smith,then some of these so called hard cases would get their come uppance.

Hyppia and Mascherano would have got stuck in tonight.
Two players we never replaced properly.

I think that will be where we need to address the squad next.
Get in some fighters who will earn us the right to play football.


Also:
Average age of our outfield players tonight - 22.
It showed. They rattled us early on and we never recovered.

Or perhaps it's none of the above, perhaps we just need different players, players who can mix it as well as they can keep it?

Nice thread starter and clearly it's becoming a bit of an issue for BR and this Liverpool side. For me it comes down to the players. I think it's fair to say we're a bit of a soft touch and for all the pretty football we have played this season there is a genuine lack of nastiness in this squad. Added to this (as Rodges alluded recently) there aren't so many natural leaders in the side.

I think if you look at what has happened to Arsenal over the last ten years as a good example. In 2003 they won the league with a team that played wonderful football BUT they were also a tough and nasty side as well. You had 'elbows' Bergkamp, you had Viera, Sol Campbell and lads like Gilberto and Grimandi who were real grafters. A real blend of power and guille and a million miles from what they have had since that incredible season, the gooners have a soft underbelly nowadays and so do we.

We could definately use a couple of stronger more powerful players, and ideally they would also open their mouth and show a bit of leadership as well. We could do with one at CB and another for the middle of the park. Diame at West Ham would be a great option and I hope he doesn't got to spudz because him and Dembele in the middle of the park would provide a great mixture of power, strength and skill. 

Agree with your thoughts on the Agger/Skrtel partnerhsip. It gets lauded by most of our fan base but they're not consistent enough for me, they look the business one minute and very shaky the next. Whilst both players have improved over the years (Skrtel was fantastic last season) neither player seems to have picked up any of the leadership qualities of Carra despite both of them taking orders from the man himself the past 7-8 years. 

 I think in fairness to the manager as well a player such as Dempsey would make a big difference to our squad, in that he's not only a good player but a bit of a nasty c*nt with it. We distinctly lack such players, and with the greatest respect Sturridge, Coutinho and Ince don't really address the shortfall.

I think in fairness to the manager as well a player such as Dempsey would make a big difference to our squad, in that he's not only a good player but a bit of a nasty c*nt with it. We distinctly lack such players, and with the greatest respect Sturridge, Coutinho and Ince don't really address the shortfall.

Dempsey would have been boss here. I'm always surprised to see so many people say we "dodged a bullet" with him. You need fighters in every side, and right now who do we have? Stevie, Luis, Carragher?

Style of play should adapt with the opposition,if we need to get physical in the game then we should have the mentality to do so.

Get physical with a passing team they seize up,can't think out the box & collapse under the challenge.

Need to set up with a physical intent.

Absolutely agree with the theme of this thread.  Was thinking the while watching the game, that we are actually better suited to going to the Emirates than Boundary Park.  We have no solid spine to the team.  While on their day Agger and Skrtel can be great, I also feel that they are not the magical pairing that some think.  As much as I despise Stoke and the way they play, you also have to admire Pulis for working with what he has got (they are the Wimbledon of today) and making them so tough to beat.  Ryan Shawcross would not have been bullied by Oldham today, and that is the kind of centre half you need alongside the Aggers to combat the physical stuff.

As has been pointed out we are not good enough at what we do/how we are set up to play yet to not have to consider the way we combat teams who get in our face.  Yes we have better players that Stoke, but we first have to compete, win the right for those players to play.

One thing I'm disturbed with this team is the LACK OF FIGHT in many of the players. All players that puts on the shirt must give nothing less than 110%, it doesn't matter whether they are junior or senior players.  50-50 tackles must be won most if not every time, we must outrun the opposing players, we have to pressure the opponents and not the other way round, we have to win all the headers, we have to get to the ball first, we have to move faster than the opponents etc. For a change I would like to see BR team to play like big bullies combine with some pretty football and I'm sure not too many teams would fancy playing against us, starting with Stoke. They would be mentally defeated even before the match.

But, the big question is does BR posseses players of such quality? Such quality and mentality is either you have it or you don't, sadly I could see most of the players don't, hopefully I'm wrong here. I can only identify 4-players with such quality in the team in Stevie, Suarez, Jamie  and Enrique. Feel free to add on.

Gone were the days where we had Smith, Souness, McMahon, Case, Kenny, Rush Toshack, Keegan  etc (too many to mention).....  the thoughts of playing against them were terrifying.  One went off next came another menace eg. Fairclough which will pour greater misery on the opponents. Can't say about the team now, except I suspect opponents only scared of 2-players in our team; Suarez and Stevie.

We need 11-fighters and winners in the team. Stevies and Suarez sounded pretty grumpy and demanding on the pitch but these are the qualities of a winner while Enrique got more complaints on his mistakes than his fighting spirit.

The winning mentality is what BR has to drum into the minds of the younger and average players, until we get better players in, otherwise,  we can expect the Stokes and Oldhams to come round and bully us. Besides that, I believe BR must show the brutal side of him, no sentiments for a poor display. Players will be dropped for a poor display while players with a consistent run of poor display will be on a shorlist for transfer, with that I'm pretty sure they'll be on their toes in every game.

One thing I like about Rafa is after a good display, he was never lavish with his praises but BR is doing the opposite that could breed complacency in players for the next game. Even after a good display, it was never good enough for Rafa.

 

Another good thread Mick - this goes hand in hand with your mentality thread.

Kenwyne Jones, Adebayor, Benteke, Carlton bloody Cole....and add to it 2 young lumps up front at Oldham who battered us all game.

We have no answer - you dont have to be the same size or have the same power but you do have to be clever. Carvalho as Chelsea was excellent at this side of the game disrupting opponents all the time. We need to learn or the way to beat LFC becomes very simple.

I also agree that we need a bit of nastiness on the pitch......we can all see it I just hope BR can.

As others have said - horses for courses.

ive posted this before - sadly - but BR is so up is own ar** he has decided that he only wants to play one style of football, and when his Plan A doesnt work, he hasnt got a plan B, C or D.

Most posters on here could have predicted a lower league club would have gone out yesterday and mixed it up physically - especially in midfield, when if you get more of the ball, you can launch it at the opposition.

So what does he do - selects Sterling, Allen and Hendo as a midfield trio. It was a train wreck waiting to happen. You needed someone with a pair of cojones in that midfield - like Shelvey - or a more battle hardened old pro - like Gary Mac a few years ago - just to stop them running riot.

We have been poor at defending crosses all year . Why ?  It has to come down to a combination of the players available and the style of play being asked of them. I would have stuck Wisdom in the middle with Carragher yesterday, because as slow as Carra is these days (and he was never quick) - he puts his body on the line every time, whereas at times Agger, Skrtel and Coates dont give that impression

 I must confess after seeing Coates yesterday, I personally would now have Wisdom down as our "fourth choice/pick him against the big centre forward" centre half. Coates I'm afraid isn't ever going to have it, while Wisdom very nearly does already.

I don't think lack of a physical presence is a fixable problem with our current strategy.

I think this is what happens when you play younger players who can get bullied by men.

Sterling and Robinson both contributed to a couple of the crosses coming in for their goals yesterday by simply not being strong enough.

Sebastian Coates may be a big b***ard but he is also still a young fella and maybe a lack of match action saw him not strong enough to outjump Matt Smith.

Fenway or the manager have decided on this youth first strategy, and unfortunately we are going to suffer that the players are not going to be as physically strong as many of our opponents.

I don't think lack of a physical presence is a fixable problem with our current strategy.

If it happened once in a while then I would agree but any team with a strong physical forward causes us too many problems. Go back to Kevin Davies at Bolton a few years ago and he was the same always giving us a hard time.

Some valid points JD as always but I think the problem is bigger. Skrtel / Agger / Coates are all internationals and shouldnt be bullied out the game as easy as they have been recently.

Also agree about Wisdom until Kelly is back in contention as being our 4th choice CB.

The amazing thing is we are far from a small team. Yesterday for example they hid long ball to a 6'6 centre forward, yet we had a 6'6 centre half playing and a 6'4 partner. Both allowed him to bully them.

Carra is big and Physical Wisdom is a beast even Robinson has bulked out and looks like he should be well able for it.

My fear is are we coaching them correctly? Central defenders not attacking or winning most crosses into the box is a serious deficency. Full backs affording the time and space for crosses to be made is not helping.

Id scour the globe for a top defensive coach and get him on board. We can have all the Suarez and Gerrards in the world if your bback 4 (and keeper) are dodgy you wont go far 

Against a physical side you have to do one of two things

a) win the first ball (or at the least make sure the attacker has practically no chance of finding a team mate or getting a header away at goal)

or

b) make sure the second ball is yours

Yesterday we weren't equipped to deal with either. Coates and Skrtel lost every header. Allen and Henderson didn't anticipate any knock downs nor did they have to strength to deal with the Oldham players who tried to pick up on the loose balls. If we'd gone with Lucas in the middle, I think we would have won that.

And I would definitely put a top class CB high up on the list for the summer.

Part of the answer needs to be the referees.  Cliff Byrne should have seen red for his elbow/forearm to Sturridge's head after the play was over.  Lucky boy that the ref missed that one.  Also, the build up to their 2nd goal started after a clear foul on Sturridge near the half way line when one of their defenders came through the back of Sturridge. 

Go back to the Stoke game a few months ago when Huth stamped on Suarez's chest.  Should have been off, but didn't even see yellow. 

We clearly need some additional steel in midfield to help us keep from being bullied out of games, but some of the blame needs to be directed at the refs.  Hate to blame the refs as we did not play particularly well, but there is no excuse for some of the missed calls yesterday....

Part of the answer needs to be the referees.  Cliff Byrne should have seen red for his elbow/forearm to Sturridge's head after the play was over.  Lucky boy that the ref missed that one.  Also, the build up to their 2nd goal started after a clear foul on Sturridge near the half way line when one of their defenders came through the back of Sturridge. 

Go back to the Stoke game a few months ago when Huth stamped on Suarez's chest.  Should have been off, but didn't even see yellow. 

We clearly need some additional steel in midfield to help us keep from being bullied out of games, but some of the blame needs to be directed at the refs.  Hate to blame the refs as we did not play particularly well, but their is no excuse for some of the missed calls yesterday....

I think you make an excellent point that kind of aligns with my views on this subject. From a Dutch point of view I''m inclined to say that you can outsmart and outskill physicality. But the fact is that it's different in the Premier League than it is in the Primera Division or Eredivisie as far as refereeing goes, more physicality is allowed in English football and as a result it's harder to outsmart and outskill it I think.

Id scour the globe for a top defensive coach and get him on board. We can have all the Suarez and Gerrards in the world if your bback 4 (and keeper) are dodgy you wont go far 

This years Man United begs to differ.

I would have thought that most people who've watched many of our matches this season would agree that when teams sit off us and turn it into a football match, we're a pretty good side. When though teams get after us, snap at us a bit, don't let us play it out from the back, load it into the box and generally play with a bit of physicality, we are generally found wanting.

 So what is the answer, and do we need one?

Part of the answer is not to change a winning team. Another part is to treat every game the same, whether it's Arsenal or Oldham. How is a team supposed to gel as a unit when there are mass changes made every couple of games? How does losing to a pub side benefit fringe players? It doesn't.

Just go onto the pitch, and let the goals show your superiority.

Look at Lucas in stature. Nothing special. Yet he gives as good as he gets with most big strong players he comes up against. I remember a particular game against City where Yaya Toure, who had been in excellent form, didn't get past him once.

If all our players applied themselves like he does, we'd be unstoppable.

The key is moderation - to use an equine analogy Sundays team was full of colts. The problem was we were competing against fully grown working horses who could pull a bigger load for longer.

That we looked better and could run faster in a straight line without a plough attached didn't matter.

JD is right (I believe) if we are going to really focus on development of an entire young side at the same this is going to happen from time to time.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21266402

Buy Coutinho... as we have done.

@ 5ft 6ins he can run through their legs .

We either need to double mark the physical threat with someone in front and someone behind or have someone behind but make sure we win the second ball. We need to be more aggressive against these physical teams instead of laying down like we have done some many times this season.

Whether we need to bring someone in in the summer to add aggression and physicality or it can be instilled in the players that we have at the moment, I'm not sure. It is something of a worry that we have such an obvious weakness though.

Look at Lucas in stature. Nothing special. Yet he gives as good as he gets with most big strong players he comes up against. I remember a particular game against City where Yaya Toure, who had been in excellent form, didn't get past him once.

If all our players applied themselves like he does, we'd be unstoppable.

Like Mascherano, he isn't massive or very tall yet his aggression really was unmatched. We just need someone with his levels of aggression and want to put a tackle in.

Players just need to roll up their sleeves and grow some balls to be honest.

Take Hendo and Allen against Oldham they were'nt up for a fight, Skrtel got clattered a few times but still contested every single challenge he could and didn't go into hiding.

Yep ye dont have to be 6'6 to be physical. Some of footballs toughest most hardest players were under 6 foot.

Its having a set of balls and knowing how to use your body and strenght at times not all about height and build..

Souness was no giant show me a more physical player then him! 

Players just need to roll up their sleeves and grow some balls to be honest.

To grow them taws they need to feel pain and know it holds no fear. I think you said you done a bit of boxing Blud as did I at a young age. My 'coach' put us in with someone who would let us feel pain; learn us to take a hit, know what it's like and realise pain is fleeting and easily overcome.

Some of these jessies just need to feel pain... a big boot in the ballbag will suffice. 

Yup BBB its in the Irish blood, my grandfather was of pure Irish blood, big boxer back in the day and became a boxing coach running a boxing academy, I had no choice I was frog marched there nearly every night as a young un.

He used to do the same with me maten put me in the ring with much bigger lads than myself and litterally let them knock F**k out of me whilst he called me all the pansy's under the sun.

He was a queer old f**ker ha.

Those who say that Agger and Skrtel are overrated are simply some small b**ches. Many of us thought they were the best partnership of the EPL when Kenny was here and today they're average? Doesn't it seem awkward? They haven't been as good as last season by they are still these good CBs we knpw who are real fighters and I'm never afraid of any striker in this league when I know there's Agger in the team: their form has not always been good but they are still class CBs.

As for the problem of physicality, it's mainly due to Lucas' form. Last season when Lucas was in form we were so solid at the back. Lucas broke whatever came to his way and the CBs just needed to defend less often than actually. At that time we had Spearing playing! *he defends well but he's not a beast. Lucas did the big part. Today we have a new system/formation and Lucas is still not full fit, the solution would have been signing a DM but for now we must just improve our pressing game until THE BOSS returns to full fitness.

until THE BOSS returns to full fitness.

Doesn't matter how fit Springsteen is, can't see Rodgers throwing him into our midfield, he's a tad too old.

Doesn't matter how fit Springsteen is, can't see Rodgers throwing him into our midfield, he's a tad too old.

Maybe it's just me, but I can't stand Springsteen. Think he's such a douchebag, personally. (awaits abuse)

Those who say that Agger and Skrtel are overrated are simply some small b**ches. Many of us thought they were the best partnership of the EPL when Kenny was here and today they're average? Doesn't it seem awkward? They haven't been as good as last season by they are still these good CBs we knpw who are real fighters and I'm never afraid of any striker in this league when I know there's Agger in the team: their form has not always been good but they are still class CBs.

As for the problem of physicality, it's mainly due to Lucas' form. Last season when Lucas was in form we were so solid at the back. Lucas broke whatever came to his way and the CBs just needed to defend less often than actually. At that time we had Spearing playing! *he defends well but he's not a beast. Lucas did the big part. Today we have a new system/formation and Lucas is still not full fit, the solution would have been signing a DM but for now we must just improve our pressing game until THE BOSS returns to full fitness.

Ease up on Sterling please. At least he's got a pair of balls and you'd never see him sh*t out of a tackle. Perhaps if we gave Allen some of his DNA he'd stop filling his nappy every time he was in the vicinity of a 50-50 challenge.

Ease up on Sterling please. At least he's got a pair of balls and you'd never see him sh*t out of a tackle. Perhaps if we gave Allen some of his DNA he'd stop filling his nappy every time he was in the vicinity of a 50-50 challenge.

Could some be passed on to Downing too!!

Could some be passed on to Downing too!!

It would be nice but @hardcoresoldier, I meant that SPEARING who is average was the player alongside Lucas and still our defense was protected very well and I thinkit was mainly due to Lucas. I'm not discrediting Spearo but Lucas was such a Boss at that moment(he is still).

BRING BACK KIRGYAKOS

I worshipped him as the last greek god.

he was sold to accomodate coates, aye. wish we still had him. the big greek. didn't do much at wolfsberg (or was it bremen) or at sunderland when he was taken on loan.. wonder where he is now.

When we get Diakite from Lazio strikers will piss themselves with fear.

Before some criticise the boss for his defensive tactics, look in to his comments and his actions and you'll see he is well aware of what we need.

Just need some time.

Agree we need some bullies though. Mo Diame would be terrific back up. Shame we never tried to get him when he left Wigan. I think Red5man and I wanted that one to happen. However 3.5m release clause is dirt cheap. I'd snap him up tomorrow if I could.

Big Andy coming back will help. BR may not rate him but I think he's a brilliant player and can play many styles. He has a great first touch and movement to fit in with BRs system. Doubt we'll see him back in our red though.

Those 3 could really help us push on and challenge more. Or at least players of the same affect.