What would you deem as satisfactory progress come the end of the 2013/14 Season?

Okay, no long drawn out post, we've all got our views and I'm sure we'll be talking about what's gone on since FSG took us over whilst discussing our hopes for the next year.

FSG have been here since October 2010 now although they started to run things on the pitch in January 2011 when they brought Kenny in for Hodgson and raised eyebrows in the transfer window.

All in all this is their sixth transfer window and their second manager. They had a plan and they have said a lot. Come the end of the next window they will have been here for near enough three years.

Its time to start seeing some real progress now as another year without Champion's League could be catastrophic for us in terms of being able to keep up.

Me? I expect to see some real action in this transfer window with money spent on the squad depth (that seems to have started) and serious money spent on improving the first team for us to kick on. I really don't want to be hearing any excuses and dumbing down of expectations come the 1st September.

To summarise, I expect us to finish no lower than 4th in the league and although I'm not going to demand cup wins I do not want to see us going out anything like last year.

That may seem like pressure on the manager but he knew what he was taking on when he came and it is now time for him to start walking the walk.

This club cannot wait for any manager or ownership to learn their trade. We need to be back in that Champion's League and we need to be back in it very soon.

I'd be interested to see what other forum members would be expecting next season when taking into account what stage of FSG and Rodgers' tenure at the club we are at.

 For me as I've said many times I like the manager, what he's trying to do and the way he's going about it. Clearly when you keep finishing 7th (as we have more or less for four seasons now) under four different managers, some of the players aren't up to it. Given that, there's a significant overhaul of the playing staff going on and it's long overdue in my opinion. There are still some which remain which also need to be moved on in my view, but I won't go into it here as it will derail the thread.

 Part of the problem Brendan has however is that not only are some of our players not good enough, but they are on bumper contracts. We've all caught ourselves (me too) saying "FFS Pepe's a 10 million pound goalkeeper" over the last few days, but in reality he isn't because nobody wants to buy him (we'd obviously sell him at that price). Skrtel will be next, and again there'll be a chorus of disapproval despite for me the fact that he is only an average player who wouldn't get a game in any of the other top teams (bar possibly Arsenal).

 Another part of the problem Brendan has are the owners. Contrary to what they said when they first came in, they don't actually want to spend any money. Yes they are better than Hicks and Gillette, but then so would I be if I were the new owner. Unfortunately, they also share with me the fact that they seemingly don't have a pot to p!ss in.

 The final part of Brendans problems are the fans. They/we place unrealistic aspirations upon the club while it's not spending any money relatively, and on the manager who happens to be in charge at the time. Allied to that is the fact that a large proportion of fans simply don't rate Brendan because he isn't a big enough name, or that his name doesn't start with either an R or a K.


 So it sounds like I'm making a bunch of excuses, and I am. But, and it's a big BUT, I rate the manager very highly and I rate some of the players he's brought in very highly. Coutinho is our best signing for many a year, Danny Sturridge isn't far behind him, I really like Joe Allen and have lots of faith in Fabio Borini. I really think the pick up of Kolo Toure on a free could be the masterstroke of the summer, and although I am (as of yet) unimpressed by either Aspas or Alberto, I'm sure they'll come good. I expect Suarez to go, and I should think we'll pick up another couple of players with the money.

 So where will we finish? I think we'll challenge for the title for a time, but our relatively small squad will see us fall away. Will we get in the top four? I think we might, but I'm sure we'll have a bloody good go at it. The Cups? Can't predict really, could get the Mancs away in the 3rd round of the FA Cup and you're a Howard Webb penalty away from being out.


 So in summary I think we'll go really well. I'll be glad when these owners f*ck off, but I hope that by the time we do the manager has impressed enough fans to make us hope that he doesn't get replaced with a "big name". Put a gun to my head and I think we'll finish 4th, Chelsea champions, Man City second and the Mancs third.   

I think this year Rodgers will definitely have to start proving to the fans that the team is going in the right direction, he's had a season now to bring in his own players (albeit not an awful amount of money to spend on top-class players) and had enough time to adapt his style onto the team. I don't believe we'll quite manage to make 4th this coming season without a few quality additions to the squad. As our squad stands now I can see us being in the mix for the top spots and be a lot closer than last season, but like I said, I think we definitely need some class players coming in if we are to get back in the Champion's League.

I expect us to land at least top 3.

If we are out of the top 4, changes need to be looked at depending on where the blame lies.

An obvious increase on last seasons points total. For me the goal is 70+ points and I really do think its possible. I wish it was as easy as saying 'Champions League or bust' but it isn't and that's a very simplistic approach. 70+ points in the league would see us right in that fight and would be clear evidence of the team moving in the right direction. It would be a disaster if we tallied less than we got but I have absolutely no doubt that this will not happen. Brendan has started to turn the team back into a team that is tough to beat and most importantly tough to put down. It was good seeing us comeback from deficits last season and learning that trait is just so important on a mental level. I think he is an incredibly talented manager and I think he's a better manager now than he was last year and I have no doubt he will be even better this time next year. I remain more convinced that he is the right man for us than when he signed in June 2012. He offends people because he's not Rafa and he's not Kenny. People should realise it is a great thing that. He's his own man.

Its difficult to say Dave as we stand right now to be honest..

If we take the question two different ways to an extent.

What do i deem at the end of 13/14 as satifactory progress after them being here over 3 years?

Honestly after they took us over in 2010 i didnt expect it to take as long as it has to get us back to where we belong, and in hindsight the longer you stay away from the top 4 the harder it is to get back there.. Had we managed to get back in immediately with a touch of luck, which again looking back was never going to happen with that arl owl c**t ruining the hard work of  the previous 4-5 years, but had we struck back straight away when we had that spine of the squad at that point of Reina, Carra, Agger, Macherano, Gerrard, Torres etc when they were at the peak of their powers and then added to those riches then as ive said a million times, their way of running the club may well have been seen, by myself included as brilliant, having the ability to add to that squad with what we generate, including CL revenue and not starting over with a squad, we may not have slipped back as far as we have.. Imagine that squad without servicing debt and having the ability to throw 35-40m a season on 1-2 players who would walk over hot coals to come to a side with that quality ofplayer that had been in 2 CL finals in the previous 5 seasons.. F**k it makes me dizzy wondering where we could have gone.. Alas we didnt and we have slipped back..

Missed out in getting back straight away we then started to lose the depth of that squad to already well established CL teams and we then found out that replacing those without the pull of the CL difficult and our squad quality in comparison to those above us has slipped season on season to us now finding ourselves where we currently are, looking up enviously.

The mistakes made in the early days by FSG added to the issues, we lacked them having the knowledge to get us back straight away, we lacked a real football man at the top of the club to make the right decisions and we had a bumbling idiot picking the side..

So here we are 3 and a bit years on.. What 4 seasons out of the CL, the prospect of losing our star player for those reasons.. So what do i expect from next season? What is acceptable at theend of four and a half years of their ownership?
We must be challenging for that top 4 place again, its an absolute must, we have to give it a real go, and if im honest there is one place open in that top four as we stand right now towards the end of July.. City/Chelsea/Utd have the top 3 places for me, leaving us Arsenal and Spurs to be pushing for that last spot which is why whatever we do, whatever they offer we cannot sell Luis Suarez to Arsenal, if we do that we could be kissing goodbye to the chance to get it, he is a wonderful player, if maybe a bit of a cock at times and if they get him they will almost certainly improve, and we will, even if we spend the money, may well go the other way with the new signings having needing time to replace Suarez and his impact on the side..

Its that important to me that Arsenal dont get Suarez.. I think Wenger knows this as well, he could have had Higuain for less money who im sure would score goals in the premier league but he knows if he nabs Suarez he immediately weakens a rival for top4..

For me we still need to spend this summer anyway, no matter what happens with Suarez, we still need to get the Chequebook out on 4-5 players, and if Luis goes another on top of that..

Look at our options, bearing in mind we have no Europe this season so dont need as deep a squad.

For me our starting line up looks something like this



There will be slight alterations with tactics and formations but essentially that..

So if we look at depth



Obviously there can be slight alterations to that but if you look at the "second 11" then i think Hendo will be used deeper, as will Alberto from the bits ive seen of him, which is why i dont think the gaffer is looking for a new holding midfielder, i think he wants to see if Lucas can get back to his pre injury best before deciding, and i think he will use Hendo as his rotation in parts of the season..
I also think that Skrtel will still leave and that a new CB will come in and depending on his level he may go into the starting team with Toure dropping into the rotation.. With Cissokho looking like coming in he will be rotation with Enrique for Left back, Kelly i think will cover Rb and Wisdom as the 4th cb..

Going further forward i actually think that Sterling and Ibe will share minutes rather than both be certain rotations.. Downing will still be in there as a wide option..

So still to bring in
Cissokho
Cb to replace Skrtel
A wide man option
Id like a new ressie keeper
Striker if Luis leaves

The Cb and the wide man could well be "marque" signings knocking Toure and Aspas to rotation if we think and hold true to the "improve the starting 11" comments.

So a squad resembling this..



Do i think that can get us in the top 4? It will have us challenging if we play like the second part of last season, we would have genuine depth, still maybe not of the quality of those above us but the better players dont guarentee anything, we need to get on a roll and stick together..

But we cannot sell Luis to Arsenal.


In answer to your question Dave? What do i expect? We are below my expectations where we are right now.. But frm where we are, forget any expectations fr cups within this, they are a bonus.. I expect us to be right in the fight for 4th and i hope and expect us to be back in it. But that will mean we need a strong end to the window as well to hit the ground running with additional quality..

CL seems like a must, but I think we are the weakest team in the running for it so I expect 5th or 6th. For next season I would accept that, but what I will NOT accept is keep getting beaten or drawing with sh*t teams...we all know the games I am talking about and frankly (and fck disrespect) we should be hammering the likes of WBA, Sunderland, Stoke, Reading, Southampton and the newly promoted teams...cause we didn't last term and for me that's nowhere near good enough for LFC.

And ffs I dont want to hear the word transitions any more....the owners and manager have had long enough...sort it out fellas.

As currently constructed, and with a chance that Suarez might leave.  I'd say 5th would be a step forward for us.  However If we keep Suarez than I'd expect 4th.  Keep Suarez and also use the usual Net spend of 20 mill, deffo 4th and maybe even a bit of a race for the title.  I think the top 6 will be really tight this coming season, hence the smaller window for error as to expectations.  I'd likely have a different response on September 1st.

City/Chelsea/Utd have the top 3 places for me, leaving us Arsenal and Spurs to be pushing for that last spot which is why whatever we do, whatever they offer we cannot sell Luis Suarez to Arsenal, if we do that we could be kissing goodbye to the chance to get it, he is a wonderful player, if maybe a bit of a cock at times and if they get him they will almost certainly improve, and we will, even if we spend the money, may well go the other way with the new signings having needing time to replace Suarez and his impact on the side..

Tough question to be honest and i have to agree with much of PD's post which pretty much echoes my thoughts. Uou have to look at City/Chelsea/mancs and figure the top 3 is sown up so that leaves us in a battle with Arsenal and Spurs for the top 4. Even as things stand at the moment that will be a battle but if we were to sell Suarez to Arsenal I personally believe that we will turn them into contenders (providing they start fast and gain some belief). So where would that leave us? Pretty much locked out of the top 4 (atleast on paper).

For me i'd like to see us match the sort of effort Spurs have managed over the past 4-5 years. They have finished int he top 4 twice in that time and are always there and thereabouts. They play good football and despite not being regulars in the Champions League there is enough of a buzz about the club to enable them to sign and develop good players each year.

There is a really good article on ESPN (below) that details how difficult it is for us having now been out of the Champions League for the 4 years. With the changing landscape in mind I wonder if it is almost as important for the club to finally start on the redevelopment of Anfied by the close of the coming season?

http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/liverpool/id/1251?cc=5739

Tough question to be honest and i have to agree with much of PD's post which pretty much echoes my thoughts. Uou have to look at City/Chelsea/mancs and figure the top 3 is sown up so that leaves us in a battle with Arsenal and Spurs for the top 4. Even as things stand at the moment that will be a battle but if we were to sell Suarez to Arsenal I personally believe that we will turn them into contenders (providing they start fast and gain some belief). So where would that leave us? Pretty much locked out of the top 4 (atleast on paper).

For me i'd like to see us match the sort of effort Spurs have managed over the past 4-5 years. They have finished int he top 4 twice in that time and are always there and thereabouts. They play good football and despite not being regulars in the Champions League there is enough of a buzz about the club to enable them to sign and develop good players each year.

There is a really good article on ESPN (below) that details how difficult it is for us having now been out of the Champions League for the 4 years. With the changing landscape in mind I wonder if it is almost as important for the club to finally start on the redevelopment of Anfied by the close of the coming season?

http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/liverpool/id/1251?cc=5739

Hard to argue anything in that article, well written piece.

Can't make any worthwhile prediction until the transfer window shuts and we see who we sell and who we buy.

Right now, after losing Carra, Reina, Shelvey and Suso and gaining Toure, Mignolet, Alberto and Aspas, I would say we'll still finish behind Spurs into 6th. If Moyes was still at Everton it might have been a fight for 6th, but I don't see Martinez finishing above us in his first season at Everton unless we have a very poor season.

Can't make any worthwhile prediction until the transfer window shuts and we see who we sell and who we buy.

Right now, after losing Carra, Reina, Shelvey and Suso and gaining Toure, Mignolet, Alberto and Aspas, I would say we'll still finish behind Spurs into 6th. If Moyes was still at Everton it might have been a fight for 6th, but I don't see Martinez finishing above us in his first season at Everton unless we have a very poor season.

Not asked for a prediction mate more what would you deem as acceptable progress at this stage of FSGs ownership and Rodgers' management?

Not asked for a prediction mate more what would you deem as acceptable progress at this stage of FSGs ownership and Rodgers' management?

Progress for FSG after nearly 3 years in charge should be getting a Champions League spot. Anything less and they're failing.

Progress for Rodgers this season would be fighting for the top 4 until the end of the season and lifting a cup, or just reaching a final. He needs to prove at some point he can win things.

An obvious increase on last seasons points total. For me the goal is 70+ points and I really do think its possible. I wish it was as easy as saying 'Champions League or bust' but it isn't and that's a very simplistic approach. 70+ points in the league would see us right in that fight and would be clear evidence of the team moving in the right direction. It would be a disaster if we tallied less than we got but I have absolutely no doubt that this will not happen. Brendan has started to turn the team back into a team that is tough to beat and most importantly tough to put down. It was good seeing us comeback from deficits last season and learning that trait is just so important on a mental level. I think he is an incredibly talented manager and I think he's a better manager now than he was last year and I have no doubt he will be even better this time next year. I remain more convinced that he is the right man for us than when he signed in June 2012. He offends people because he's not Rafa and he's not Kenny. People should realise it is a great thing that. He's his own man.

70+ will more than likely get you a top four spot if the past five seasons are anything to go by.

08/09
4th) Arsenal 72 pts
5th) Everton 63 pts

09/10
4th) Spurs 70 pts
5th) Man City 67 pts

10/11
4th) Arsenal 68 pts
5th) Spurs 62 pts

11/12
4th) Spurs 69 pts
5th)Newcastle 65pts

12/13
4th) Arsenal 73pts
5th) Spurs 73pts

Either way, we need an increase of 9/15 points next year to get there. To do that we need to significantly spend more and whilst keeping our squad depth. That could give us that final push and increase of nine points from last year's 61.

Very possible if the right things are done in this window. We need to kick on.

For me 'satisfactory progress' would be to challenge for the top 4 right the way till the end of the season, obviously if we made the champions league then I and millions of others would be very happy, but we have to look at things realistically, we have finished 7th, 6th, 8th and 7th in our past 4 seasons, whilst teams like Man City and Tottenham have overtook us, not only in the league table but as a bigger spending power.

For us to make this step forward in the league table it wouldnt be anything out of the ordinary, I just feel we're missing that one extra game-changer, Mkhitaryan was potentially that player but we missed out on him, maybe it could be Eriksen or Soldado? But if we lose Suarez this task becomes considerably harder, so thats why I think its only right to get your estimates on 'satisfactory progress' once the transfer window has closed and we can see what assets we have for this campaign.

Top 4 is the only satisfactory situation for me.  All the posturing and waffle about them wanting us back competing with the best has, so far produced nothing. 

If it doesn't happen this season, it never will.

I want 4th. If we don't finish there then the owners will have a lot of flak because as far as I can see Brendan can do the job but he needs backing give him 40m plus sales and we can seriously push on.

I wasn't taken by BR when he came but I have to say he's turning into a fine manager. I just wish he'd talk less.

70+ will more than likely get you a top four spot if the past five seasons are anything to go by.

08/09
4th) Arsenal 72 pts
5th) Everton 63 pts

09/10
4th) Spurs 70 pts
5th) Man City 67 pts

10/11
4th) Arsenal 68 pts
5th) Spurs 62 pts

11/12
4th) Spurs 69 pts
5th)Newcastle 65pts

12/13
4th) Arsenal 73pts
5th) Spurs 73pts

Either way, we need an increase of 9/15 points next year to get there. To do that we need to significantly spend more and whilst keeping our squad depth. That could give us that final push and increase of nine points from last year's 61.

Very possible if the right things are done in this window. We need to kick on.

Put it like that, and all we need from this season is a few more wins under our belt to be in contention, so very possible when you put it like that. That is definitely possible and definitely what we should be aiming at.

I guess my expectations are linked to the net spend the club have invested this year. If we have spent little overall after taking away income then an improvement of 1 or 2 places is progress, therefore 5/6 is acceptable. If we have spent over 20 mill or more net then top 4 really should be our expectation in my opinion. Anyone know what where our current net spend stands?

TOP 4.

Silverware of some description.

I'd say at least a Europa League place, so that's 5th or 6th or maybe a league cup win. I would see that as an improvement because the latter half of the season we played so much better. I know everyone expects top 4 but we have to be realistic here.The Mancs, City, Chelsea and Arsenal were so much better than us last season and that's with the squads last season and they all will improve. If Arsenal get Suarez then its "kiss the baby" time for us for the top 4. Its exactly what Brendan is saying that he's improved the squad but not the first 11 and that's our downfall I'm afraid. How can we replace Suarez ?

Mignolet has come in and I'm not doubting his ability at all but what happens now if Toure plays, we sell Skrtle and get in Papa. Well the whole balance of communication between the back line gets altered. Toure is an experienced defender but that would of improved us if Riena was still here and playing. Anyone who's played in defence knows that you have to have that communication between the back four and keeper and it does take a while to get that going especially if we have a new look back 4 and keeper.. I've been worried about this ever since Carra said he was going to retire. It may come together very quickly but if it doesn't then our improved attack will be great but we may leak goals and that's a problem if we want to improve on last seasons place. You have to win games to gets the points people.

Suarez scored 23 goals in the EPL last season and that's a fantastic return. Sturridge was a breath of fresh air when he came in and scored around 11 goals (I think ). Coutinho looked really special when he came in and our attack and defence looked the part BUT we still were still 12 points off the top 4 and that's the battle, how do we make up that deficit this season if :

We loose Suarez and his 20+ goals, where will they come from.
We have lost Reina and his experience and replaced him with a good keeper but not as experienced.
We have lost Carra and his experience but replaced him with a good defender but we have a not so experienced keeper so communication and performance may suffer.
We may sell Skrtel and bring in another CB that may be an improvement but back 4 may suffer with lack of experience and performance.

Its a tough one but that's where we are, yes we have improved our playing style and attack but we still will not have a settled 11. So I'm expecting a 5th place or league cup win to get us back into Europe but don't be surprised if its 6th or 7th.

A Champions League spot. To be the best you need to compete with the best..