Midfield Three

I don't mind Coutinho from the left floating inside (like Silva does for City and Mata for Chelsea) but I think we need a left back who is better on the ball for that to work to its full potential.

And we're definitely one short in the midfield area if we go down that route.

I think this could very well be the main problem we have this season.

I have said in other threads that I think Brendan will play Joe Allen ahead of Henderson in the most advanced role of the 3 in midfield. Given that Gerrard and Lucas pick themselves in our team (and the lack of cover for Lucas is frightening to be honest) then the 3rd role is key. While young Joe did well in getting into positions at the weekend and some people claimed he was MotM, for me he didn't do enough when in those positions and outside of the box carried little threat of being able to crack open a defence. Henderson also doesn't have that key to unlock a defence either, although does balance the side a lot better with his willingness to play box-to-box and that energy will be missed should we choose Joe ahead of Hendo.

Personally I would drop Coutinho into this floating role and play a more 4-2-3-1 as I feel the players we have lend themselves much better to this style of play. In many ways we're trying to accommodate Allen and I don't see the benefits we're getting in return for holding that shape. Granted pre-season has looked successful and you'd be hard to knock it, but we haven't come across anyone able to give us a game. As much as I'd like to think that's us improving, I really haven't seen evidence of that and it's more been down to the poor opposition we've played.

Sticking a front 3 of Sturridge/Suarez/Costa (or whoever) and coutinho behind will get you masses of goals and allow Gerrard and Lucas to mop up from behind without having to focus on getting into the box to support the 4 ahead as much. If we play the 4-3-3 all the 2-1 or 1-2 switching in the world wont escape the fact that you're really just accommodating a player the boss seems fixated with.

Do I back Brendan's judgement on Joe Allen, well I once didn't back the manager's judgement on a certain Lucas Leiva and now I've grown to love him so while I claim you should learn from your mistakes I'm not going to make the same one again. I will say though it is only the manager's judgement that stops me calling this a definite mistake.

Sticking a front 3 of Sturridge/Suarez/Costa (or whoever) and coutinho behind will get you masses of goals and allow Gerrard and Lucas to mop up from behind without having to focus on getting into the box to support the 4 ahead as much. If we play the 4-3-3 all the 2-1 or 1-2 switching in the world wont escape the fact that you're really just accommodating a player the boss seems fixated with.

But there is still a real danger of getting overun in the middle of the park, Lucas will sit very deep to enable the full-backs to get forward and Coutinho doesn't offer much from a defensive point of view (even if you ask him too) so I wonder if Stevie has the legs to play in what would effectively become a two in there (atleast at various times).

It's a fair point on 'accomodating Allen' though, I think Brendan initially bought him to play in the role Stevie occupied last season but the Captain did such a great job in there. As for cover for Lucas, I still think Joe showed enough in there for the first couple months to suggest that he can step in and play there is needs be.

I am actually perplexed as to why some folk think Spearing is better than Allen. No disregard to the lad, Spearing is a red through and through - one of those guys who would do anything for the club, but he was not good enough in my opinion.

I have high hopes for Allen. He's not going to be at attacking player in the Gerrard sense - can't see many match winning goals from him, but its clear if he is in the 'advanced' midfield role, it will be similar to that of Fabregas in Arsenal and Spain, often behind the strikers. He's a player I can see making defence splitting passes, like through the eye of a needle. We've seen him do it at Swansea where he did play in a more advanced role than what he did at the start for Liverpool, but give him attacking license and he can do it. Putting him in a deeper position does him no good though.

Do I think we overpaid? Yes, I think £10 million would have been the max for him, but he can definitely do a job. The only worry for me is that, if played in an advanced role, he will come up against tough defenders. Being of slight build, I hope he isn't bullied off the ball too easily.

I am actually perplexed as to why some folk think Spearing is better than Allen

I wouldn't think Jay is better but like for like would be an accurate description .

But there is still a real danger of getting overun in the middle of the park, Lucas will sit very deep to enable the full-backs to get forward and Coutinho doesn't offer much from a defensive point of view (even if you ask him too) so I wonder if Stevie has the legs to play in what would effectively become a two in there (atleast at various times).

It's a fair point on 'accomodating Allen' though, I think Brendan initially bought him to play in the role Stevie occupied last season but the Captain did such a great job in there. As for cover for Lucas, I still think Joe showed enough in there for the first couple months to suggest that he can step in and play there is needs be.

Gonna have to disagree with you there Scott, I don't think Joe offers an awful lot more than Coutinho in a defensive sense. Now bare with me before you call BS. Joe does not have the strong tackle you'd expect from a player who plays in the 'in between' role of the midfield 3. He was out muscled by all and sundry last season, on occasion being an absolute liability. He also dwells on the ball often and numerous occasions I found him losing it simply by the striker of the opposition coming back from an attack and nicking it off him. So therefore strength on the ball and tackling aren't traits I can give him as yet. In the air he obviously offers very little due to his diminutive stature.

Let's compare that to Coutinho, very often already I've seen him willing to track runners and show the ability to nick it off players rather than obviously tackle them. He doesn't shy out of a tackle and while obviously will never make a defensive midfielder does seem to show all the attributes that Joe Allen has and more. One thing Joe did seem to have in his locker that I haven't noticed in Coutinho's game is the positional sense and many times would intercept passes with his game knowledge and positioning, so he most certainly has that above Coutinho so far. When weighed against each other though and assuming they'll both be the furthest forward of the midfield 3 (therefore less chance for interceptions) I'm going to have to disagree.

With regards your point of being over-run in the middle of the park, in my opinion a 4-2-3-1 has less exposure in the middle of the park due to the narrow 3 you're playing up top. Unless you're extremely high up the pitch, those 5 should be pretty well condensed and the exposure is more likely on the flanks. Thankfully playing with the 2 deep rather than the 2 advanced in the 4-3-3 Lucas and Gerrard should be able to cover whichever side gets a numbers advantage, also having a pacey frontline allows for recovery into the middle should their absence leave gaps. Again though that's just my fondness of a 4-2-3-1 and not relative to the Joe Allen debate.

tell me what Allen does that Spearing cannot. I agree Spearing isn't good enough but I am far from convinced Allen is much better.

Allen CAN play himself out of tight intricate positions. Spearing does not do intricate at all and is merely a hard grafter. I wish Allen had Spearing's graft though. Really would have helped him when his form dipped alarmingly after two brilliant months (far more impressive than anything I've seen from Allen). Recall his match against Man City (where Skrtel fu**ed up). Allen was outstanding. Spearing has never been more than good.

Id play Coutinho at the top of the mid triangle, for 2 reasons;
1) Hes just sheer class and that area of the pitch is the one of the most critical in my opinion.
2) People will be aware of him this season.
If he plays on the wing, the fullback will obviously try to man mark him and either their winger will doubleback for defensive support or the oppositions defensive mid will shuffle across to try to crowd him out. (First half against Olympiakos was a prime example). 
If he plays in the CAM number 10 role, he has a lot more freedom to roam, can become unpredictable in terms of where he will crop up on the pitch and can find the hole between the opposition defense/midfield a lot more easily.
He's one of the best players we have and we should play to his strengths in my opinion, we need to try to get the rest of the team to create him some space in the middle of the park so need to drill into the wingers of the 4-3-3/4-5-1 that they need to hug the touchline or the fullbacks need to overlap once they come inside. (Something Sterling was called out on by McAteer in the last game).

I don't think this is the way Brendan will line the team up though and can definitely see Allen being a starter. I just am still trying to see what makes him deserve that spot as other than "ticking things over" i still don't think he offers too much and would personally prefer Hendos energy on the pitch as removes the reliance on Lucas to mop everything up, which against the top teams he wont be able to do 100% of the time.

not in mine either what has Allen got that Spearing hasn't.

Skill, quickness, eye for a pass and the ability to score.

Not sure, prefer Coutinho more central but having said that think that Henderson should start at the moment and as he's getting better all the time. Starting to add assists and goals to his energetic game too.

So Lucas as the holding player, Jordan then Stevie furthest forward and therefore Coutinho wide.

Therefore, depending on who we are playing etc either

   Lucas     Henderson

           Stevie

(with Coutinho wide)

or

     Lucas   Stevie

       Coutinho

Brendans view on Joe, taken from an interview over the weekend.  I expect to see him start most games this season.

"The first three month of last season Joe was our best player by a mile but he had a problem with his shoulder which curtailed his season," said the Reds boss.

"It meant he could not have that aggressive streak which is part of his game.

"Joe has been terrific over the course of pre-season and he did very well.

"It is important we have a real strong competitive group as we are trying to build the depth of the group so that I can change the team in games and when we go to play against certain teams I can change the team about."

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/brendan-rodgers-hoping-for-more-from-joe-allan-8745268.html

"The first three month of last season Joe was our best player by a mile"

Each to their own but I would have given that particular accolade to Luis Suarez. 

"The first three month of last season Joe was our best player by a mile"

Each to their own but I would have given that particular accolade to Luis Suarez. 

Me too mate.

Skill, quickness, eye for a pass and the ability to score.

ok how many league goals did he score and how many assists did he have. Ha was no better than average last season.

ok how many league goals did he score and how many assists did he have. Ha was no better than average last season.

And he was injured most of the season, your point? He's looked good this pre-season, and he looked good the start of last season. Much better than Jay Spearing.

Me too mate.

It's just such a peculiar statement to have made and other than "he's going to be first choice" I don't know what message it sends out. It can have done the morale of other players much good. Definitely a head-scratcher.

Listen; I've plenty of time for Joe Allen, I've defended/praised him before he signed and during his time here; in my humble he'll be a great asset for the club but to say he was "our best player by a mile" in the first three months is stretching it, to say the least.

 

"The first three month of last season Joe was our best player by a mile but he had a problem with his shoulder which curtailed his season," said the Reds boss.

What has he been smoking?

Maybe the first month he was up there with the best performers and many would even debate that. As for the first 3 months, well that is talking total rubbish.

As BBB says the downside of this is that it does the confidence of others no favours, makes clear the boss' favouritism.

"Well done Raheem, you were great, wee Joe was miles better though"
"What did he do boss?"
"The welsh xavi, he got it, gave it, he's welsh, tempo, power, pace, precision and of course he's my illegitimate son."

It's just such a peculiar statement to have made and other than "he's going to be first choice" I don't know what message it sends out. It can have done the morale of other players much good. Definitely a head-scratcher.

Listen; I've plenty of time for Joe Allen, I've defended/praised him before he signed and during his time here; in my humble he'll be a great asset for the club but to say he was "our best player by a mile" in the first three months is stretching it, to say the least.

What has he been smoking?

Maybe the first month he was up there with the best performers and many would even debate that. As for the first 3 months, well that is talking total rubbish.

As BBB says the downside of this is that it does the confidence of others no favours, makes clear the boss' favouritism.

"Well done Raheem, you were great, wee Joe was miles better though"
"What did he do boss?"
"The welsh xavi, he got it, gave it, he's welsh, tempo, power, pace, precision and of course he's my illegitimate son."

I have no problem with managers bigging up their players but to single out just one player defeats the object of trying to build confidence in the whole squad.  Especially done so publicly too.

"The first three month of last season Joe was our best player by a mile"

Each to their own but I would have given that particular accolade to Luis Suarez. 

Maybe that's why Luis wants to leave...

Allen weren't our best player in the first three months of last season but I think most of us know that. Rodgers saying it though could simply be to give Woody a big boost of confidence and potentially spur the others on. Sort of give them a kick up the arse to raise their game. I think it's something Rodgers does with certain players, he gives that tough love nature with some to get a reaction out of them - most notably Downing. Maybe this is the other end of the spectrum where Allen needs the softer approach and needs to hear how good he is/was.

I don't think it's gonna effect too many of the squad because for the first three months of last season nobody played well, bar Suarez and could you imagine the up roar if Brendan spoke the truth and said it was Suarez after all that's gone on during the summer?

Allen was getting rave reviews on here during the opening months of the year and most (though not meself) would of probably had him as our second or third best player during those months. So maybe Rodgers is right in saying it given the situation regarding Suarez.

I have no problem with managers bigging up their players but to single out just one player defeats the object of trying to build confidence in the whole squad.  Especially done so publicly too.

I don't think the players take his talks seriously. Takes a Dave Whelan to believe his BS now.

You maybe right Billy, who the hell knows. 

Maybe that's why Luis wants to leave...

Well it probably answers the question posed in the OP, if nothing else. I can't see Brendan not starting what he sees as his best player, in the first three months, by a mile (no less); can you?

Not unless he drops him for the best player, in the last three months, by two miles - Coutinho.

I've confused myself here.