Our second half performances

I don't know about anyone else, but I find the way we are dropping off in the second half of every match is alarming to say the least. So what's happening? we surely can't be tired? or are the opposition changing tactics at half time and we are not seeing it? or is it something else? thoughts please. One thing for sure, we can't carry on like this or we are sitting ducks! Yes we are showing determination and are fighting but we need to be in control more throughout the match. Thought it might make a good debate as we can all see it's happening.

we gave the opposition time and space.  we allowed it to happen.

I personally don't think it is tiredness or the opponents changing tactics. It is alarming though. I said in the match thread yesterday...

Hopefully when Luis is back next week our first half dominance will be showing in the scoreline and we'll be 2 or 3 up. Which should give us a bit more confidence going into the second half.

Also i think the shear prescence of Luis will force teams to at least be a little less offensive through fear of him tearing them a new one if we break quickly.

But yeah it is a worrying trait and we need to cut it out, better teams will destroy us if we do that against them.

It can't be a simultaneous decision by what appears to be the whole team, coincidentally at half time in every game so far.
Somebody is advising the easing of attacking options to strengthen the defence, as we have seen this can be counter-productive in inviting the opposition forward.
Last night Swansea were the perfect illustration of the pitfalls of the tactic. 

I'm not sure what the problem/reason is.  It's not like we make defensive changes to our formation, unless forced through injury, any subs have usually been to the attacking line up.

Maybe it's to do with the opposition riding the storm of our attack in the 1st half, then changing things up with their subs.  De Guzman coming on last night certainly made a difference to their game and we didn't seem to have an answer for it.

It is a worrying trait and we've been lucky that we haven't come unstuck in previous games, something that would have happened over the last few seasons as it did last night.

Hopefully with Luis coming back it won't be so obvious and the opposition will be a bit more cautious when he's playing.

Well sitting back worked for our three 1-0 wins.

Well sitting back worked for our three 1-0 wins.

This is the bit that scares me, I think it is a deliberate tactic, kind of like the Italian teams used to do in the 80's-90's. It is a very very dangerous tactic. Havign said that I'm not sure we did it on purpose yesterday, at the time they scored the secodn goal it was actually fairly even, but the combination of that goal and Coutinhio going off injured changed the entire momentum. Our biggest problem at the moment is the combination of Lucas and Gerrard, they just aren't abel to control the midfield, especially in the second half. Unfortunately I don't see any easy solution to that unless we drop Lucas and move Henderson to play next to Stevie as soon as Suarez is back.

Interesting debate,
It's true we have allowed sides to dominate us in the second half of games, and so far we have gotten away with it, but we cannot continue to allow this to happen,

Last season we lost too many points by not being clinical enough in front of goal, how many times did we have a lead and then chuck it away, we would either lose 2pts or in some cases all 3,

I think Brendan is trying to address this by making sure once gaining a lead then trying keep hold of it by sitting back and getting more bodies behind the ball, a dangerous game IMO,

I believe he sets his stall out to try and have a lead by half time, last night we lead by one but could have lead by two or three had our chances been taken, again not a reliable tactic,

Things may change once Suarez makes his entrance but that is no means a guarantee of any sort of lead is it,

all in all I thnk Brendan is ensuring we don't lose and whatever happens he is happy to gain at least 1pt from every game we play ,

Personally I'd prefer us to be on the offensive throughout the 90 mins with the ability to sub players like for like, maybe he feels we don't yet have that luxury and is fearful of giving away all 3pts,

I thought the changing moment last night was when we lost Coutinho, Aspas just hasn't got it yet do clearly we lost a pivotal part of our attack, maybe Luis Alberto would fair better or dare I say Joe Allen, I don't know, anyhoo,
What we need to do is bag those goals at least 3 before we can afford to sit back, maybe with our loon back we will use the counter attack more often , hope so anyways.

YNWA

The problem I think is that we are essentially carrying a front player (Sturridge) who is a mile away from being fit. When I say "carrying", I mean including really as Danny's goal scoring has been fantastic. Unfortunately though, his current lack of fitness means he can't run the channels as normal, he can't hold it up as normal and we can't play on the counter as normal.

We are desperately missing the influence of Suarez, his inclusion will instantly transform our "desperate defending" into a team who is sucking the opposition in and them hitting them on the counter.

It also has to be said that a holding midfielder with pace who doesn't need to sit on the toe-ends of the centre backs in order not to get found out would help too. I know criticising Lucas is tantamount to putting your bollocks in a vice and inviting the forum to take turns in tightening it, but if you changed him for someone more athletic then the problem would also stop fairly quickly.

The problem I think is that we are essentially carrying a front player (Sturridge) who is a mile away from being fit. When I say "carrying", I mean including really as Danny's goal scoring has been fantastic. Unfortunately though, his current lack of fitness means he can't run the channels as normal, he can't hold it up as normal and we can't play on the counter as normal.

We are desperately missing the influence of Suarez, his inclusion will instantly transform our "desperate defending" into a team who is sucking the opposition in and them hitting them on the counter.

It also has to be said that a holding midfielder with pace who doesn't need to sit on the toe-ends of the centre backs in order not to get found out would help too. I know criticising Lucas is tantamount to putting your bollocks in a vice and inviting the forum to take turns in tightening it, but if you changed him for someone more athletic then the problem would also stop fairly quickly.

i agree about Lucas BigMick, I'd like to see one of our CB's played in that position, perhaps give someone like Johnson, or even Ilori, a go. Someone who's quick, good at passing but can also get back to defend.

Not been remotely impressed with one of our 2nd halfs so far, been totally outplayed and haven't managed to score in the 2nd half in our first 4 games (5 if you include the near embarrasment of Notts County)

i agree about Lucas BigMick, I'd like to see one of our CB's played in that position, perhaps give someone like Johnson, or even Ilori, a go. Someone who's quick, good at passing but can also get back to defend.

Have thought this ever since Lucas came back from injury last year, he just does not have the pace to cope with teams who are breaking quickly hence he sits far too deep.

It's a rot that set in with the owl, 1-0 and shut up shop. Personally I choose to believe that Brendan is trying to build early season confidence by grinding out wins whilst saving his tactical brilliance for the business part of the season.

Well, the first part at least. 

It has to raise questions of the teams conditioning, particularly that of the midfield

Would love to see the combined number of chances weve had in the 2nd half of the 4 games by the way

Against the Mancs it was tactical defending. Against the swans it was headless chicken.  No one picked the run off Shelvey all the way from the half way line for his assist. I think against the Swan's the pressure not to lose had a psychological impact and just couldn't get into the game.  A mixture of new players didn't help too.  Still no excuse to run around like with no positional play or trying to keep hold of the ball.  The throw in was a fooking joke, well pissed me off.  If I had that throw in I would have thrown it as far as I could into that D-Box.

Yeah, think it is tactical/bad habits.
We did it quite a lot last season - not necessarily in the second half - sitting too deep and trying to exploit Sturridge's pace with balls over the top, giving it back to the opposition.

We are good when we play high tempo, press high and go all out attack. But you can't play that way for 90 mins - we need to be able to slow the play down once we get on top, let the ball do the work and be more patient with our build-up. Instead we drop deep and hope to grab something on the break.

It can be effective up to a point, but the teams that win lots of trophies - including us in the past - don't do it. They control the tempo of the game, slow it down when they need to, deny the opposition the ball.
We have a pretty young team and also still developing our system under BR, but its something we need to learn to do.

The problem I think is that we are essentially carrying a front player (Sturridge) who is a mile away from being fit. When I say "carrying", I mean including really as Danny's goal scoring has been fantastic. Unfortunately though, his current lack of fitness means he can't run the channels as normal, he can't hold it up as normal and we can't play on the counter as normal.

We are desperately missing the influence of Suarez, his inclusion will instantly transform our "desperate defending" into a team who is sucking the opposition in and them hitting them on the counter.

It also has to be said that a holding midfielder with pace who doesn't need to sit on the toe-ends of the centre backs in order not to get found out would help too. I know criticising Lucas is tantamount to putting your bollocks in a vice and inviting the forum to take turns in tightening it, but if you changed him for someone more athletic then the problem would also stop fairly quickly.

Interesting debate,
It's true we have allowed sides to dominate us in the second half of games, and so far we have gotten away with it, but we cannot continue to allow this to happen,

Last season we lost too many points by not being clinical enough in front of goal, how many times did we have a lead and then chuck it away, we would either lose 2pts or in some cases all 3,

I think Brendan is trying to address this by making sure once gaining a lead then trying keep hold of it by sitting back and getting more bodies behind the ball, a dangerous game IMO,

I believe he sets his stall out to try and have a lead by half time, last night we lead by one but could have lead by two or three had our chances been taken, again not a reliable tactic,

Things may change once Suarez makes his entrance but that is no means a guarantee of any sort of lead is it,

all in all I thnk Brendan is ensuring we don't lose and whatever happens he is happy to gain at least 1pt from every game we play ,

Personally I'd prefer us to be on the offensive throughout the 90 mins with the ability to sub players like for like, maybe he feels we don't yet have that luxury and is fearful of giving away all 3pts,

I thought the changing moment last night was when we lost Coutinho, Aspas just hasn't got it yet do clearly we lost a pivotal part of our attack, maybe Luis Alberto would fair better or dare I say Joe Allen, I don't know, anyhoo,
What we need to do is bag those goals at least 3 before we can afford to sit back, maybe with our loon back we will use the counter attack more often , hope so anyways.

YNWA

We are hamstringed just now without our goal machine ,Danny has done a remarkable job being half fit yet I cant help thinking if LS is playing in last nights game we would have been more than 2-1 at the interval up say 3,and  its going to be a hell of a different Swansea side that comes out .
If`s and buts we got a point they deserved one move on ,its not long till the wee fella`s back then we should rack up the points .

Gerrard tires. Some of our other players tire. Also, we really lack options from the bench. Either quality or variety.
Finally, I don't think our reconnaissance on other teams is particularly detailed. 2nd half v Swansea was terrible.

I can understand why folks are concerned about this, its not pretty to watch, and its definitely not good for the heart!
How we win, how we win doesn't really bother me, I would gladly take 38 back to the wall 1-0 wins this season.
Already it's making me wonder about our options on the bench, maybe the Boss doesn't have enough faith in these guys to carry out the original game plan. I think everyone agrees we have a decent first team, but a few injuries have highlighted the lack of strength in reserve.

I think Coutinho being out will force BR to change the tactics a little, the only other player who could have stepped-in as a direct replacement was Suso, I said during the window Coutinho was the player Suso could be, and that allowing him to stay and learn from Coutinho would be a better option than loaning him out to another club.

I think Coutinho being out will force BR to change the tactics a little, the only other player who could have stepped-in as a direct replacement was Suso, I said during the window Coutinho was the player Suso could be, and that allowing him to stay and learn from Coutinho would be a better option than loaning him out to another club.

Going off tonights u21's match I'd say Alberto could do a decent job.  He's pretty calm with the ball and can pick a pass.

I don't think its fitness based really, considering it starts almost as soon as we start the 2nd half. If it was something that only happened in the last 15 minutes or so then fair enough but it's happening a lot earlier than that.

I don't really have a clue what is, we just stop passing it and the we drop far too deep which leaves Sturridge with F**k all in terms of support.

We seem content with a lead no matter how we're playing. If we're winning, we'll sit back and not go for the next goal. All our goals have come in the first half and we've taken a lead into every half time. We think the game is won already, shouldn't be happening and it needs to be addressed.

Something that concerned me about the Swansea game was our lack of mobility off the ball. Gerrard and Lucas were very static with only Coutinho actually coming into certain positions to give his team mates an option to pass to. If we're going to succeed playing the football we do, then more mobility off the ball is required.

I don't imagine Lucas, Stevie or Hendo being a natural in this department, but Coutinho and Alberto probably yes.

I would be surprised if it is fitness related though. We should have a couple of dedicated strength and conditioning coaches so would be really surprised if it's a lack of fitness being our 2nd half hindrance.

Really want a +2 goal minimum lead against Southampton on Saturday. A win is a win, but you can't scrape wins all season.

Game finished 5-2, we were boss!

Oh wait....

Bolt on some of that U21 second have and we're sorted.
Sterling and Alberto particularly.

really don't think it's tactical, just a lack of legs and also composure at times, the second half was where we missed Carra to push them out.

I think going into half time in all our league games comfortably being the better side and leading is playing a part in our poor, more defensive second half displays.

Some of it is in the players minds I feel.

Feel sitting back in the second half, only a single goal up, could prove costly and lose us vital league points. Which in turn could affect the side's chances of a Champion's league spot. Also do not think the defence is good enough to defend for 45 minutes against the top sides. Very risky tactics and nerve racking to watch is my honest opinion.

hopeful against Southampton we play for full 90 mins, l don't care how we play 3 points main thing

It must be some kinda record that we haven't scored in the 2nd half of any PL match this season (but still top the table)

BR on our drop in form in the 2nd half of games “We have sat down this week and looked at that. You can want to win too much, but our game has to be about not being fearful and expressing ourselves.
“I will always respect brave, courageous players.
Even if they make a mistake I will always support them if they are trying to do the right thing. I have always done that.
“To continue to get on the ball, to pass, move and open up the pitch is important. We have shown we are a force when we do that.” Rodgers doesn’t believe the drop in performance level is linked to fitness, and added:
“It is more of a mental than physical thing for me. A few weeks ago we were saying how fit all the players looked. Their condition is fine.
“But sitting back is natural sometimes. We just
need to make sure that we take calculated risks in a game because that is what gets us in front in the first place.
“The quality of our football is there, the pitch opens up, we pass and press the ball well, so we have to continue to do that throughout the game.
“Of course there comes a point when you have to close things up and see the game through, and that is something I am sure we can improve on.
“Against Manchester United we dropped too deep, too quickly. Even though we looked comfortable that was not the type of game we want to play.
“And against Swansea we were very good in the
first half but were not how I expected us to be in
the second half. After Coutinho went off we went too deep, too early.”

BR on our drop in form in the 2nd half of games “We have sat down this week and looked at that. You can want to win too much, but our game has to be about not being fearful and expressing ourselves.
“I will always respect brave, courageous players.
Even if they make a mistake I will always support them if they are trying to do the right thing. I have always done that.
“To continue to get on the ball, to pass, move and open up the pitch is important. We have shown we are a force when we do that.” Rodgers doesn’t believe the drop in performance level is linked to fitness, and added:
“It is more of a mental than physical thing for me. A few weeks ago we were saying how fit all the players looked. Their condition is fine.
“But sitting back is natural sometimes. We just
need to make sure that we take calculated risks in a game because that is what gets us in front in the first place.
“The quality of our football is there, the pitch opens up, we pass and press the ball well, so we have to continue to do that throughout the game.
“Of course there comes a point when you have to close things up and see the game through, and that is something I am sure we can improve on.
“Against Manchester United we dropped too deep, too quickly. Even though we looked comfortable that was not the type of game we want to play.
“And against Swansea we were very good in the
first half but were not how I expected us to be in
the second half. After Coutinho went off we went too deep, too early.”

Agree with every single word he says there, of course it's much easier to say how to fix it than actually do it.

Mentality is probably the hardest thing to change in a player because often they're acting on instinct rather than clear thought processes, will be very intrigued if we can start to bring out the brave/courageous side in some of the lads or if in fact they'll need replacing. It's nice to be in the position where we can begin to find out who can develop the winning mentality and who simply falls by the wayside though.

BR on our drop in form in the 2nd half of games “We have sat down this week and looked at that. You can want to win too much, but our game has to be about not being fearful and expressing ourselves.
“I will always respect brave, courageous players.
Even if they make a mistake I will always support them if they are trying to do the right thing. I have always done that.
“To continue to get on the ball, to pass, move and open up the pitch is important. We have shown we are a force when we do that.” Rodgers doesn’t believe the drop in performance level is linked to fitness, and added:
“It is more of a mental than physical thing for me. A few weeks ago we were saying how fit all the players looked. Their condition is fine.
“But sitting back is natural sometimes. We just
need to make sure that we take calculated risks in a game because that is what gets us in front in the first place.
“The quality of our football is there, the pitch opens up, we pass and press the ball well, so we have to continue to do that throughout the game.
“Of course there comes a point when you have to close things up and see the game through, and that is something I am sure we can improve on.
“Against Manchester United we dropped too deep, too quickly. Even though we looked comfortable that was not the type of game we want to play.
“And against Swansea we were very good in the
first half but were not how I expected us to be in
the second half. After Coutinho went off we went too deep, too early.”

Brendan's comments would suggest the drop is tactical rather than physical/tiredness.
So we deliberately dropped off in the second half of both United and Swansea games.

"Too deep, too soon" (Matron)

Hopefully that is the case.
It would be a lot more worrying if it was a case of overtraining and tiring in the second half of games.
I think some of it is tiredness and, in the case of Sturridge and Moses' pressing game, lack of fitness.

We probably tire so much in games because we spend most of the second half chasing shadows.
If we are dropping too deep too soon, why isn't Brendan screaming his lungs out on the touch line getting it sorted.
He seemed happy with the situation during the games, so makes me feel it was a tactic being deployed rather than instinct.

The problem is if we don't score early, we can't score. Reason for that, is that we don't have enough quality in the creative areas. Lucas doesn't provide us any attacking threat, Henderson doesn't provide loads of creativity and there's no options off of the bench that are good enough to crack open opposition defences late in the game.

The problem is if we don't score early, we can't score.

Been a problem for a long long time that one.

West Brom has to be our best 2nd half performance this season, BR said he told his players to push the tempo all game and not just from the beginning and it worked. Lets hope we now continue with this mantra and with a bit of squad rotation we have the legs in the middle to do this for a full 90.

should play second halfs first !

This is working on the basis that each game restarts the scoreline to 0-0 at half time. So if for example we’re winning 3-0 at half time but the match ends 3-2, then it’ll result in the first half winning 3-0 but the second half losing 0-2 – so essentially there’s six points available per match as opposed three.

1st half of matches v 2nd half of matches

First half; Played 28
Second half; Played 28

First half; Won 19
Second half; Won 11

First half; Drew 5
Second half; Drew 9

First half; Lost 4
Second half; Lost 8

First half; Scored 47
Second half; Scored 26

First half; Conceded 16
Second half; Conceded 19

First half; GD +31
Second half; GD +7

First half; Points 62
Second half; Points 42