It's the end of the beginning, so where are we at?

fighting chance (at 4th place).

What is it with everyone and looking at 4th place? Sorry but I want us to be looking higher than 4th!

Every player in the team doesn't have to be world class to be successful (look at UTDs squad last season  )

Not just last season mate, they have had a very average squad since Tevez and Ronaldo left, they just seemed to have a fear factor about them that meant teams accepted defeat before they had even kicked off, something they have lost and wont get back now Fergie has left.

 The problem here is we've been missing our 2 best players one after another, and we've yet to play our strongest XI. This can also be said for the other teams, but remember our bench is a lot weaker than theirs. Look at Arsenal for example, they've been without Cazorla, Podolski, Walcott and Arteta recently, yet they have had a really strong team on the field. Anyway, I'm more than happy with our points and position in the table right now.

In my opinion, where we are at, is 3rd on points. Probably 7th on quality/standard of performances. Only my opinion though.

We're exactly where lack of investment, lack of ambition gets you, in the pack behind those that actually want to win, well done FSG.

We cannot continue blaming FSG for every little fault. Out of the "big six" - Chelsea, United, City, Spurs, Arsenal and ourselves, we have the largest number of defenders and fewest amount of midfielders. Whether or not FSG provided suffficent funds, it's the manager's job to get the most out of his budget and in the Summer, Brendan Rodgers just did not spend wisely, pursuing an extroidinary number of central defenders rather than strengthening the areas that needed strengthening, i.e. the midfield and full backs. There is still no real competition for Johnson and if you look at our midfield, only Courthinio and arguably Gerrard (arguably due to his age) would walk in to any of the "big six" teams midfield. Henderson, Allen, Alberto, Lucas and Sterling are all ordinary players, players good enough for the bench but not really players good enough to take us forward.

We are where we are due to Suzrez and Sturridge being in a rich vien of form but our performances have been what they have been due to the players we have who are, quite frankly, just not good enough and that's not down to FSG, that's down to Brendan Rodgers. All that said, this time last year we where 13 points off the top of the table, this year we're 2 so I'd sooner play badly and be where we are than play badly and be where we where last year.

We cannot continue blaming FSG for every little fault. Out of the "big six" - Chelsea, United, City, Spurs, Arsenal and ourselves, we have the largest number of defenders and fewest amount of midfielders. Whether or not FSG provided suffficent funds, it's the manager's job to get the most out of his budget and in the Summer, Brendan Rodgers just did not spend wisely, pursuing an extroidinary number of central defenders rather than strengthening the areas that needed strengthening, i.e. the midfield and full backs. There is still no real competition for Johnson and if you look at our midfield, only Courthinio and arguably Gerrard (arguably due to his age) would walk in to any of the "big six" teams midfield. Henderson, Allen, Alberto, Lucas and Sterling are all ordinary players, players good enough for the bench but not really players good enough to take us forward.

We are where we are due to Suzrez and Sturridge being in a rich vien of form but our performances have been what they have been due to the players we have who are, quite frankly, just not good enough and that's not down to FSG, that's down to Brendan Rodgers. All that said, this time last year we where 13 points off the top of the table, this year we're 2 so I'd sooner play badly and be where we are than play badly and be where we where last year.

First rule of building a team is get the defence sorted out.

Were we are is were we should be considering the teams we have played. Come the end of the year if we are in the same place then progress will have been made.

We cannot continue blaming FSG for every little fault. Out of the "big six" - Chelsea, United, City, Spurs, Arsenal and ourselves, we have the largest number of defenders and fewest amount of midfielders. Whether or not FSG provided suffficent funds, it's the manager's job to get the most out of his budget and in the Summer, Brendan Rodgers just did not spend wisely, pursuing an extroidinary number of central defenders rather than strengthening the areas that needed strengthening, i.e. the midfield and full backs. There is still no real competition for Johnson and if you look at our midfield, only Courthinio and arguably Gerrard (arguably due to his age) would walk in to any of the "big six" teams midfield. Henderson, Allen, Alberto, Lucas and Sterling are all ordinary players, players good enough for the bench but not really players good enough to take us forward.

We are where we are due to Suzrez and Sturridge being in a rich vien of form but our performances have been what they have been due to the players we have who are, quite frankly, just not good enough and that's not down to FSG, that's down to Brendan Rodgers. All that said, this time last year we where 13 points off the top of the table, this year we're 2 so I'd sooner play badly and be where we are than play badly and be where we where last year.

So its up to the manager to get the best out of his budget? What, do you mean the huge £16 million or whatever budget he was given?
Bottom line mate if BR was given more money he wouldn't have to search for "bargains" like Aspas and Alberto, ( Not knocking these guys, just making a point)

I'm not blaming FSG for every little fault, just the glaringly obvious lack of depth that could end up costing us Champions League football.

First rule of building a team is get the defence sorted out.

exactly, and we've now done that. I think our defence is head and shoulders above the standard we've seen over the past 3-4 years and it will only improve as they get better acquainted with our style. Let's also not forget we've got a new pair of gloves between the sticks too.
 
Personally, I'm not reading too much into the league table and won't start taking it seriously until January. That said, I think we've done well. What's more, I think we're still riding in 2nd gear and yet to hit our stride...
I expect to see our formation and play improve over the coming months and one or two new faces in January to help us push on for that top 4 place. 

I think a lot of people on here saw our first few results and got a little bit ahead of themselves in terms of our squad, the signings we made, and what is actually possible to achieve this season.

So this day last year we sat in 12th with 9 points, now we are 3rd with 17. 

We have a really nasty December coming up, but before that we have a pretty decent next 5 games in November....

WBA (H)
Arse (A)
Fulham (H)
Everton (A)
Hull (H)

I'm happy getting 11 points from 15 out of those games.

After them comes December, 21 points up for grabs,

Hull (A)
Norwich (H)
West Ham (H)
Spuds (A)
Cardiff (A)
City (A)
Chelsea (A)

Be interesting to know what people expect out of those games....  I'd be more than happy with 13-15 out of 21.

If we can get 24 points out of the 36 available then for me, that is a great outcome. 

I think a lot of people forget that it's impossible to win the league getting 3 points every game, the average points tally for a title winning team over the past 5 years is an average of 2.2 points throughout the season.

We are currently on 2.12 points per game and even if we only manage 24 points in our next 12 matches that takes us to 2.05 points per game... More than enough for a top 4 finish.
 
We have to look at the season in stages, and if we have 40 points by December 31st 2013 that keeps us right in the mix.

We have a better squad than last year, and if we can be up there come Jan, I have no doubt at all that BR will deliver some sort of ultimatum to FSG for funds.

I think a lot of people on here saw our first few results and got a little bit ahead of themselves in terms of our squad, the signings we made, and what is actually possible to achieve this season.

So this day last year we sat in 12th with 9 points, now we are 3rd with 17. 

We have a really nasty December coming up, but before that we have a pretty decent next 5 games in November....

WBA (H)
Arse (A)
Fulham (H)
Everton (A)
Hull (H)

I'm happy getting 11 points from 15 out of those games.

After them comes December, 21 points up for grabs,

Hull (A)
Norwich (H)
West Ham (H)
Spuds (A)
Cardiff (A)
City (A)
Chelsea (A)

Be interesting to know what people expect out of those games....  I'd be more than happy with 13-15 out of 21.

If we can get 24 points out of the 36 available then for me, that is a great outcome. 

I think a lot of people forget that it's impossible to win the league getting 3 points every game, the average points tally for a title winning team over the past 5 years is an average of 2.2 points throughout the season.

We are currently on 2.12 points per game and even if we only manage 24 points in our next 12 matches that takes us to 2.05 points per game... More than enough for a top 4 finish.
 
We have to look at the season in stages, and if we have 40 points by December 31st 2013 that keeps us right in the mix.

We have a better squad than last year, and if we can be up there come Jan, I have no doubt at all that BR will deliver some sort of ultimatum to FSG for funds.

don't get carried away with all this, this season more than others is pretty unpredictable so far

Nothing we didn't know.
 
Three at the back is asking for trouble against any decent team, especially if the clumsy duo of Cissokho and Sakho both play.
 
We rely very heavily on Coutinho who has only been here less than a season, and don't have a natural replacement.
 
We rely very heavily on Lucas who isn't very good and playing poorly, and don't have a natural replacement.
 
Suarez and Sturridge are very, very good. Gerrard is still our best player. Agger is our best CB. Moses should only ever play on the wing. Aspas, Allen and Alberto have done nothing, which is a bot concerning given that we invested £30m in them. Henderson has lots of energy and little else.
 
We need a CM player in January, and the Top 4 looks like it will be very hotly contested indeed.

First rule of building a team is get the defence sorted out.

First rule of building a team is get the defence sorted out not bring in an over abundance of players for a single position and ignore what is without doubt the least talented area of the team with the least competition for places.

First rule of building a team is get the defence sorted out not bring in an over abundance of players for a single position and ignore what is without doubt the least talented area of the team with the least competition for places.

That's what was so weird. Rodgers was frantically trying to sign expensive attacking players like Willian, Miktwhatsisface and Costa, and then all of a sudden we bring in Sakho.
 
Who made that call?

That's what was so weird. Rodgers was frantically trying to sign expensive attacking players like Willian, Miktwhatsisface and Costa, and then all of a sudden we bring in Sakho.
 
Who made that call?

I imagine BR did. We've been crying out for a commanding centre back for years and an extra player in that position was just what we needed.  I expect to see something more creative come in for January, otherwise prices will rocket in the summer with the World Cup.

Gerrard is still our best player.

No he isn't.

Suarez is both the best player we have and the best player in the league.

Our results and relative position of those teams:


1-0 Win v Stoke (15th in the league)
1-0 Win v Villa (13th if they lose today, which they currently are)
1-0 Win v United (8th in the league)
2-2 Draw v Swansea (11th in the league)
0-1 Loss v Southampton (6th in the league)
3-1 Win v Sunderland (Bottom of the league)
3-1 Win v Palace (19th in the league)
2-2 Draw v Newcastle (10th in the league)

If you look at it that way, Arsenal have also only played against teams that are currently in the bottom half of the table, with the exception of Spurs, whom they beat, but they also lost to the 13th Aston Villa. Same goes for Spurs, with the exception of 2 games (Arsenal and Chelsea) from which they took only 1 point; their campaign also includes a defeat at home against the 14th. But Spurs are the example to be followed (they got so many options!) and I'm afraid there aren't many bad things to be said about Arsenal so far. So you can over analyze as much as you want for all teams involved, we're doing quite well so far.

If you look at it that way, Arsenal have also only played against teams that are currently in the bottom half of the table, with the exception of Spurs, whom they beat, but they also lost to the 13th Aston Villa. Same goes for Spurs, with the exception of 2 games (Arsenal and Chelsea) from which they took only 1 point; their campaign also includes a defeat at home against the 14th. But Spurs are the example to be followed (they got so many options!) and I'm afraid there aren't many bad things to be said about Arsenal so far. So you can over analyze as much as you want for all teams involved, we're doing quite well so far.

That actually has been thrown at Arsenal and is absolutely fair. The difference is, every man and his dog can see they're also playing well while producing the results, we're not.

The difference is, every man and his dog can see they're also playing well while producing the results, we're not.

Could be seen as a positive for us Luke?

That actually has been thrown at Arsenal and is absolutely fair. The difference is, every man and his dog can see they're also playing well while producing the results, we're not playing anywhere as well but WE ARE GETTING THE RESULTS

Fixed it up for you Luke.

I imagine BR did. We've been crying out for a commanding centre back for years and an extra player in that position was just what we needed.  I expect to see something more creative come in for January, otherwise prices will rocket in the summer with the World Cup.

As most would know, I'm firmly in the managers corner and credit him with making some great signings. He is the manager, so therefore he gets credit when we do it right, but it's his fault if it goes wrong. Kenny signed Suarez not Comolli, but he also signed Downing. Rafa signed Alonso amongst others, but he also signed Robbie Keane (I never did buy any of that "It was Parry" nonsense).

As such, the paucity of our midfield options while we spent/spunked money on the likes of Aspas is absolutely the managers fault. We should have bought someone, and I suspect he was hoping that Lucas was going to rediscover his form of a couple of years ago. On that one mistake our season could hinge.

We've played some F***ing beautiful football over the past 2 1/2 years and got jack sh*t from those matches too.

So on the basis of a w*nk away performance, I'm quietly pleased with a point.

If you look at it that way, Arsenal have also only played against teams that are currently in the bottom half of the table, with the exception of Spurs, whom they beat, but they also lost to the 13th Aston Villa. Same goes for Spurs, with the exception of 2 games (Arsenal and Chelsea) from which they took only 1 point; their campaign also includes a defeat at home against the 14th. But Spurs are the example to be followed (they got so many options!) and I'm afraid there aren't many bad things to be said about Arsenal so far. So you can over analyze as much as you want for all teams involved, we're doing quite well so far.

It is  a strange league this year as many of us predicted and it will possibly take longer than normal for the contenders to properly assert themselves.
Its usually the last 10 games that determine who finishes where not the first 10

Fixed it up for you Luke.

I don't know if you struggle to read Mick but my post stated that we were getting results but not playing well and the difference between us and Arsenal is they are getting results while playing well.

Perhaps you have heard the phrase, don't fix what isn't broken?

The bone of contention is, as Si alludes to, can we keep producing results while playing badly or do you expect our performances to improve to maintain the "form". I'm far from convinced, if we play as we are I think we'll get beaten against better sides, disagree if you would, that's simply my opinion.

Will our performances improve? Well considering we're having to chop and change system to suit our lack of squad depth it doesn't give me much confidence. Coutinho coming back will be a massive boost, of that I have no doubt but so will the level of our opposition rise pretty damn sharply in the coming 2 months. My expectations, based on our level of performance is that we will possibly progress to 6th this year, 5th at a push. So therein lies my frustration and why most of us appear to have our gaze fixed firmly on the January window because we're in desperate need of help and that's the only place it appears it can come from.

I care not for all this "we're 2 points from the top, so all is well" attitude, it's naive and even Brendan has alluded to 6th place recently. Not because he thinks we'll definitely fall from where we are, he's simply tempering expectations, because he's not a fool and can see what is obvious while others choose to ignore it.