Brave Players?

In a recent interview Brendan said he's looking for "brave players" to come into the team in January and goes on to explain what he means by 'brave'.

'I think my history as a coach shows I like players who are gifted technically and have courage when it comes to being in possession of a football,' he said.

'That is a key quality for me; can you be brave on the pitch, not in terms of 50-50 tackles but having the ball and looking to play in areas others wouldn't?'

So who in our current squad would you call "brave"?  For me it would be

Toure
Agger
Johnson
Lucas
Stevie
Coutinho
Suarez
Sturridge
Alberto
Sterling
Allen

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2487901/Brendan-Rodgers-I-want-brave-players-Liverpool.html

Its true that we do have a team of brave players, which is probably the reason why we're doing so well. We have a squad that actually want to play for Liverpool fc (well, except for Suarez ;-/ ), everyone is doing their best, and there is no sulking about not being in the first team.

Suarez would be the bravest player we have, he has complete confidence in his own ability, and always wants to be involved. The same could be said of Sturridge, his confidence means he wants to be on the end of every attack.

We have a squad that actually want to play for Liverpool fc

what exactly are you basing that on?

what exactly are you basing that on?

F***ing hell, want to be any more of a negative git? 

what exactly are you basing that on?

Have a glance at the Premier League table, then ask yourself if your consistent negativity is justified.
More to the point if there is any basis to your claimed support, studying League tables should never quantify that support, it should be total. 

F***ing hell, want to be any more of a negative git? 

I'm just curious as to how anyone can "know" that all the members of the squad "want" to play for Liverpool. 

For example, if player X was offered to play for Liverpool without pay, or play for, say Crystal Palace, on £50k a week, which do you think he would take?

They are football players first and foremost, and they want to be paid. 

Beyond that I don't really see how anyone can "know" that our squad want to play for us.  There are only a handful you can be absolutely certain about; Carra for example, clearly wanted to play for us, no matter what.  Stevie, not quite as much, remember how close he was to joining Chelsea?  But in our current squad I really don't see how to know that for sure.  They may say "ohhh wow, I'm so lucky to be at Liverpool"---is that enough for you?  Stewart Downing gushed about how much he loved our club, then he proceeded, week in and week out, to do a £80,000 a week, 90 minute disappearing act for two years.

So when I see some of our players shitting out of challenges and jogging about the pitch, it makes me think they don't really care about playing for Liverpool that much.  I could care less what they say, I care more about what they do.  The most bizarre thing about this is that the one who works the hardest (Suarez) and puts in a 100% shift every single game is the one who openly said he doesn't want to be here.     Weird how that works.

Even super loyal Agger said a few weeks ago that if he didn't get playing time, he might consider leaving in January.  This was just after he professed his love for our club for the umpteenth time and was awarded vice-captain.  Gets benched for a few weeks and all that is out the window.  Skrtel said last season when he was benched he would consider leaving.

I don't know.  I think the days of Kenny and Rushie and Barnes are gone, there aren't any players anymore who would die to put on the shirt and go out there.  They want to earn good money, first and foremost, if they can do it at a historic club like Liverpool then great, but I think you're deluding yourself if you think half of our players wouldn't bolt to be at a CL club on bigger wages if the opportunity were offered.

I'm just curious as to how anyone can "know" that all the members of the squad "want" to play for Liverpool. 

For example, if player X was offered to play for Liverpool without pay, or play for, say Crystal Palace, on £50k a week, which do you think he would take?

They are football players first and foremost, and they want to be paid. 

Beyond that I don't really see how anyone can "know" that our squad want to play for us.  There are only a handful you can be absolutely certain about; Carra for example, clearly wanted to play for us, no matter what.  Stevie, not quite as much, remember how close he was to joining Chelsea?  But in our current squad I really don't see how to know that for sure.  They may say "ohhh wow, I'm so lucky to be at Liverpool"---is that enough for you?  Stewart Downing gushed about how much he loved our club, then he proceeded, week in and week out, to do a £80,000 a week, 90 minute disappearing act for two years.

So when I see some of our players shitting out of challenges and jogging about the pitch, it makes me think they don't really care about playing for Liverpool that much.  I could care less what they say, I care more about what they do.  The most bizarre thing about this is that the one who works the hardest (Suarez) and puts in a 100% shift every single game is the one who openly said he doesn't want to be here.     Weird how that works.

Even super loyal Agger said a few weeks ago that if he didn't get playing time, he might consider leaving in January.  This was just after he professed his love for our club for the umpteenth time and was awarded vice-captain.  Gets benched for a few weeks and all that is out the window.  Skrtel said last season when he was benched he would consider leaving.

I don't know.  I think the days of Kenny and Rushie and Barnes are gone, there aren't any players anymore who would die to put on the shirt and go out there.  They want to earn good money, first and foremost, if they can do it at a historic club like Liverpool then great, but I think you're deluding yourself if you think half of our players wouldn't bolt to be at a CL club on bigger wages if the opportunity were offered.

And this has to do with 'brave players' how exactly?

If you can't or don't want to comment on the actual topic then please don't comment at all, or do so in the appropriate thread.

Think back a few seasons ago to when the Cowboys were in charge, the players were aware of what was going on, it was destroying the moral of the team, and it was obvious that a few of the players were looking to jump ship.
Towards the end of his time here, it was clear that Torre$ wasn't putting in the effort he used too, Masch could wait to leave, Alonso left and Benayoun jumped first chance he got.

You can probably understand the guys reasons for leaving, the future was not looking rosie!

Now things are different, they can see a brighter future.
The players we have now came to the club knowing there was no champions league football, so clearly playing for Liverpool was a big enough incentive for them, and every player on the team is giving 100%!

The players we have now came to the club knowing there was no champions league football, so clearly playing for Liverpool was a big enough incentive for them

Downing and Carroll and Adam all came to the club knowing there was no CL football and none of them were "brave" during the vast majority of their careers here.

every player on the team is giving 100%!

Did you actually watch the Newcastle game? 

Basically we have a squad full of players who sometimes give 100%, sometimes they don't.  Gerrard for the last two seasons has started to be more and more sporadic, sometimes he has a blinder like against Fulham or at Sunderland, other times he just decides he'll go missing for the entire 90 minutes.  Lucas doesn't always give 100%, how many times does he get blown by and then you watch while he just sits there instead of tracking back?  When Sturridge is on fire he has shown he is top class, but he has also had a few games where he has been sloppy and not working hard.

The only two I can think of that each game give 100% are Suarez and Henderson.  And the dichotomy couldn't be any more stark.  Suarez is not only the best player on our team by far, he is also the hardest working.  How often do you see that in a player?  Henderson, well he may not have much going for him other than his engine, but you know that he'll always put in a shift.  Those two are the ones who work the hardest.

The rest of the squad pick and choose when they want to show up.

Don't think its a simple as that, we're not going to dominate every game, and some times if you're asked to play a certain formation and you're being over run in midfield or down the flanks, it can make you look pretty ineffective (see Lucas)
Gerrards 100% isn't as effective as it used to be, doesn't mean hes not trying.

Don't think its a simple as that, we're not going to dominate every game, and some times if you're asked to play a certain formation and you're being over run in midfield or down the flanks, it can make you look pretty ineffective (see Lucas)
Gerrards 100% isn't as effective as it used to be, doesn't mean hes not trying.

Would refrain replying to Fed if I were you. Keep on replying and the thread will derail.

In regards to the OP, I am not sure if Allen is a brave player. Also not seen much of Alberto to consider him brave.

Suarez by a long mile is the bravest player followed by Cou and Stevie.

Anyway to the subject of brave players - I'm glad he's brought that up. It's reassuring to know that he has intentions of improving the creative aspect of our football. Clearly implies he's looking for a creative/attacking midfielder.

Can't wait to see who we land!

I'd add Aspas in there, even if he isn't very good he seems to want the ball and try to make things happen. Skrtel perhaps too, though watching him I get the feeing he seems forced to pass from the back at times rather than it being a natural trait to his game.

I would also add Enrique and Skrtel.

Good thread Debs but and certainly a massive factor in what I consider a vital ingredient in a top player. I think we may have got more interesting answers though if you'd have asked the opposite.

Toure
Agger
Johnson
Lucas
Stevie
Coutinho
Suarez
Sturridge
Alberto
Sterling
Allen

Absolutely agree with all those, but it's easy to see why this is such a quality that every manager should look for, because those that scream out at you are:

Gerrard
Suarez
Sturridge
Coutinho
Lucas
Johnson
Agger

There's no coincidence in that list that these are, in my opinion, our best players.

Good thread Debs but and certainly a massive factor in what I consider a vital ingredient in a top player. I think we may have got more interesting answers though if you'd have asked the opposite.

Absolutely agree with all those, but it's easy to see why this is such a quality that every manager should look for, because those that scream out at you are:

Gerrard
Suarez
Sturridge
Coutinho
Lucas
Johnson
Agger

There's no coincidence in that list that these are, in my opinion, our best players.

It isn't a surprise nor a coincidence Luke.

I brought the topic up because I was surprised how many players we already have that fit the description.  There's such a huge difference of opinion on all forums about the quality, or lack of, we have that I thought it gave a different perspective when assessing our weaknesses.  It also opens up a different discussion about Brendans main targets, positionally wise,for January and the summer.

 

It isn't a surprise nor a coincidence Luke.

I brought the topic up because I was surprised how many players we already have that fit the description.  There's such a huge difference of opinion on all forums about the quality, or lack of, we have that I thought it gave a different perspective when assessing our weaknesses.  It also opens up a different discussion about Brendans main targets, positionally wise,for January and the summer.

 

One good thing about your initial list and what backs Brendan's statement up strongly is that he's provided 5 of the 11 and that is something to take some encouragement out of for sure.

Needs to add a couple more names to that list in January if we are to truly progress in my opinion though and after an unconvincing summer spending the importance on getting this window spot on is paramount.

One good thing about your initial list and what backs Brendan's statement up strongly is that he's provided 5 of the 11 and that is something to take some encouragement out of for sure.

Needs to add a couple more names to that list in January if we are to truly progress in my opinion though and after an unconvincing summer spending the importance on getting this window spot on is paramount.

1st team starters is what he wants whether he finds them is another matter.

I think in that statement from Brendan Rodgers was a little kick up the backside to Toure.  I think he is a brave a player.  But the way he turned his back on Ramsey was a mistake.  If he would have stood up and been brave it would have been a tense finish to the game.   I agree we have brave players on the main.

I think in that statement from Brendan Rodgers was a little kick up the backside to Toure.  I think he is a brave a player.  But the way he turned his back on Ramsey was a mistake.  If he would have stood up and been brave it would have been a tense finish to the game. 

Toure.... Toure?  are you serious?  you must be trolling, you think that when Rodgers is talking about being more brave he's talking about one time when Toure turned his back? 

If that makes Toure not "brave," then what the hell are Lucas and Gerrard and Henderson who constantly shat out of tackles, who pulled up right when they had the option to go to ground, Lucas the Untouchable one who let player after player blow by him and then instead of running his arse off to track back he sits there pitying himself as the play moves beyond him...

And you go after Toure?!

F***ing hell now I've heard everything, there really are some blind "supporters" here.

"oh, Stevie pulled out of that 50/50, oh gee, he's just back from international break you see.... oh Lucas didn't go in for that tackle and pulled up like a little girl.... well he's recovering from an injury.... well take a look at that Henderson re-straightened his hair instead of going up to challenge that header, well he's just short of confidence, doncha' know..... OH MY GOD KOLO TOURE TURNED HIS BACK ON THAT SHOT WHAT A F***ing COWARD!!!!"

ffs....

I've read my post again to clarify nowhere have I stated he is coward.  In fact, I have said to make sure no one misinterprets the post and thinks that.  He made a mistake.  And I think he Brendan was talking about players being brave and it playing in an important part in his ideology.

I've read my post again to clarify nowhere have I stated he is coward.  In fact, I have said to make sure no one misinterprets the post and thinks that.  He made a mistake.  And I think he Brendan was talking about players being brave and it playing in an important part in his ideology.

well which is it, did he make a mistake or was he not "brave"?

you make a mistake at work, does that mean you're not "brave"?

words have meanings you know.  "bravery" and "mistake" are two different things.

Toure.... Toure?  are you serious?  you must be trolling, you think that when Rodgers is talking about being more brave he's talking about one time when Toure turned his back? 

If that makes Toure not "brave," then what the hell are Lucas and Gerrard and Henderson who constantly shat out of tackles, who pulled up right when they had the option to go to ground, Lucas the Untouchable one who let player after player blow by him and then instead of running his arse off to track back he sits there pitying himself as the play moves beyond him...

And you go after Toure?!

f**king hell now I've heard everything, there really are some blind "supporters" here.

"oh, Stevie pulled out of that 50/50, oh gee, he's just back from international break you see.... oh Lucas didn't go in for that tackle and pulled up like a little girl.... well he's recovering from an injury.... well take a look at that Henderson re-straightened his hair instead of going up to challenge that header, well he's just short of confidence, doncha' know..... OH MY GOD KOLO TOURE TURNED HIS BACK ON THAT SHOT WHAT A F***ing COWARD!!!!"

ffs....

wow man like chill out and calm down,it's Sunday relax.

Putting it this way turning his back on Ramsey wasn't brave.  But yes it was a mistake not an act of cowardliness.   

Out of our current squad I would put Lucas at the top of the list.Now I know I ramble on a bit of players of yesteryear but the bravest ever has to be Gerry Byrne in the 1965 F.A.Cup Final against Leeds.Gerry is a true description of the meaning of the word brave.

'That is a key quality for me; can you be brave on the pitch, not in terms of 50-50 tackles but having the ball and looking to play in areas others wouldn't?'

I think BR meant creativity and the willingness to risk playing killer balls.
Being brave in a 50-50 tackle, only to end up sitting out for the rest of the season is stupidity

Out of our current squad I would put Lucas at the top of the list.Now I know I ramble on a bit of players of yesteryear but the bravest ever has to be Gerry Byrne in the 1965 F.A.Cup Final against Leeds.Gerry is a true description of the meaning of the word brave.

Didn't he play on with a broken leg Billy?

In a recent interview Brendan said he's looking for "brave players" to come into the team in January and goes on to explain what he means by 'brave'.

'I think my history as a coach shows I like players who are gifted technically and have courage when it comes to being in possession of a football,' he said.

'That is a key quality for me; can you be brave on the pitch, not in terms of 50-50 tackles but having the ball and looking to play in areas others wouldn't?'

Going by that definition of 'brave' 'debs - I'd say that players who fit the description, without dispute, are: Agger, Johnson, Stevie, Suarez and Coutinho. There are others who may, arguably, be added to the list and may be comfortable in their own right but (in my opinion) these five are undeniable.

All comfortable on the ball; all prepared to play in "other areas". Brendan, going by his quote, will be looking to bring in players like these - recent transfer history shows it won't be an easy task tho'.

Going by that definition of 'brave' 'debs - I'd say that players who fit the description, without dispute, are: Agger, Johnson, Stevie, Suarez and Coutinho. There are others who may, arguably, be added to the list and may be comfortable in their own right but (in my opinion) these five are undeniable.

All comfortable on the ball; all prepared to play in "other areas". Brendan, going by his quote, will be looking to bring in players like these - recent transfer history shows it won't be an easy task tho'.

Thanks Bubby at least you read "his definition" of 'brave' before posting.  I agree it won't be easy finding this type of player but at least we can agree he's looking for the right qualities.

Going by that definition of 'brave' 'debs - I'd say that players who fit the description, without dispute, are: Agger, Johnson, Stevie, Suarez and Coutinho. There are others who may, arguably, be added to the list and may be comfortable in their own right but (in my opinion) these five are undeniable.

All comfortable on the ball; all prepared to play in "other areas". Brendan, going by his quote, will be looking to bring in players like these - recent transfer history shows it won't be an easy task tho'.

I'd agree with your five if we're going with that definition - which leads me to ask, how does Lucas make the list (for some). 

I agree it won't be easy finding this type of player but at least we can agree he's looking for the right qualities.

I get what you are saying 'debs [about looking for the right qualities] but maybe we've got it wrong in our assessment of the type of player he's referring to and that leads to further questions.

For example: Is the pursuit of 'brave' players something new? If so why?
Does Brendan believe that Toure, Sakho, Alberto and Aspas, for example, are 'brave'? Or, indeed, did he believe the same of Assaidi, Borini and Allen? If so; will Brendan be on the look out for more of the same? If not; why didn't he sign that [brave] type of player in the Summer?

Whilst it's nice to hear, the reality is; going by our earlier assessment and judgement of players and speaking statistically, those questions, are why I believe it's easier said than done. 

Going by that definition of 'brave' 'debs - I'd say that players who fit the description, without dispute, are: Agger, Johnson, Stevie, Suarez and Coutinho. There are others who may, arguably, be added to the list and may be comfortable in their own right but (in my opinion) these five are undeniable.

All comfortable on the ball; all prepared to play in "other areas". Brendan, going by his quote, will be looking to bring in players like these - recent transfer history shows it won't be an easy task tho'.

I would add Sakho, Enrique and Sturridge as for me it's undeniable that they fit the definition.

I get what you are saying 'debs [about looking for the right qualities] but maybe we've got it wrong in our assessment of the type of player he's referring to and that leads to further questions.

For example: Is the pursuit of 'brave' players something new? If so why?
Does Brendan believe that Toure, Sakho, Alberto and Aspas, for example, are 'brave'? Or, indeed, did he believe the same of Assaidi, Borini and Allen? If so; will Brendan be on the look out for more of the same? If not; why didn't he sign that [brave] type of player in the Summer?

Whilst it's nice to hear, the reality is; going by our earlier assessment and judgement of players and speaking statistically, those questions, are why I believe it's easier said than done. 

See mate I think all those players you mentioned with the exception of Assaidi and possibly Borini do fall into that remit.  They're all comfortable on/with the ball and are technically sound, they may lack that killer ball like Cou or Suarez but they're exceptional talents that don't come around every day.

I'd agree with your five if we're going with that definition - which leads me to ask, how does Lucas make the list (for some). 

I suppose I should explain the reason as to why I'm a little perplexed at Lucas being chosen in some people's list, it's their prerogative but I'd like to explain why he wouldn't make my list. And by Christ I don't want to turn this into a Lucas/midfield thread that isn't the point of my explanation which is to give a genuine reason because I'm genuinely unsure why he has made some lists and it isn't criticism of him either.

Rodgers, when he terms the word "brave" talks about technically gifted players who have courage on the ball. Lucas does have some technical ability, as do most footballers, he also has some courage on the ball, like many footballers do. In comparison to Suarez, Coutinho, Gerrard, Johnson and Agger, he doesn't have as much. These players have it abundance in comparison to Lucas, in a different league so to speak. As we're often reminded Lucas's role in the team is very specific and when questioned whether he should be doing, or could be doing more, it is often nonchalantly dismissed out of hand that 'he's not in the team to do that!'. People who think they can appreciate his work better than the others will use this as a way to deflect any constraints his game/ability has, which is fair enough, he is after all our only proper DM.

With that said, Lucas's game when in possession is like German manufacturing - efficient, he's there to do that specific job of putting fires out around defense, winning the ball back and then laying it off, simply and efficiently, to players who are "brave". His game, nor does his ability allow him to be as "brave" as Suarez, Coutinho, Gerrard, Johnson, or even Agger who is a genuine ball playing center half. His role has been made so specific (by some) that the "brave" we're talking about here excludes his a) ability (in comparison to aforementioned players) and b) his game (which is specific and when in possession efficient/simple & effective are the order of the day). That's no slight on the player, he's there to do a role, but being "brave" in this sense isn't it.

I would add Sakho, Enrique and Sturridge as for me it's undeniable that they fit the definition.

S..hit, can't believe I forgot Sturridge, he would definitely go into that category for me. Not sure about the other two.

I would add Sakho, Enrique and Sturridge as for me it's undeniable that they fit the definition.

See mate I think all those players you mentioned with the exception of Assaidi and possibly Borini do fall into that remit.

That's fair enough FL & 'debs and the reason why I only listed players who I believe are "undeniable". If that is the case, with your additional seven, we can't be that far off having a 'complete' team. Good times. 

he's there to do that specific job of putting fires out around defense, winning the ball back and then to laying it off, simply and efficiently, to players who are "brave".

That's exactly what he's meant to do mate but in this instance the 'brave' is having the ability to recieve/win the ball and give/pass it to a team mate whilst under pressure.  He rarely get's rid for the sake of it, he always looks for the easy outlet ie a team mate with time/space. 

Compare this to players who pass to the player nearest regardless of being surrounded by the opposition, or doesn't carry the ball when they have the time or space to do so.  These players are scared witless of having the ball at their feet and just want to get rid asap.

Hope that helps mate.

That's fair enough FL & 'debs and the reason why I only listed players who I believe are "undeniable". If that is the case, with your additional seven, we can't be that far off having a 'complete' team. Good times. 

That's a reason for starting the topic mate, I was surprised at how many 'brave' players we already had and where the glaring 'holes' are within the squad 

That's exactly what he's meant to do mate but in this instance the 'brave' is having the ability to recieve/win the ball and give/pass it to a team mate whilst under pressure.  He rarely get's rid for the sake of it, he always looks for the easy outlet ie a team mate with time/space. 

Compare this to players who pass to the player nearest regardless of being surrounded by the opposition, or doesn't carry the ball when they have the time or space to do so.  These players are scared witless of having the ball at their feet and just want to get rid asap.

Hope that helps mate.

Good point.

Although it does sound to me you are describing a player who is comfortable in possession.

Didn't he play on with a broken leg Billy?

I am not sure if you are taking the piss out of me stuey but to put the record straight Gerry Byrne played the whole match (Bar the first couple of minutes) with a broken collarbone.Sad to say some of the so called stars today would come off if they suffered a broken fingernail.

Sad to say some of the so called stars today would come off if they suffered a broken fingernail.

Funny because it's true unfortunately.

Talking of players who were "brave" in possesion, I was really disappointed when Sahin went. There was something incredibly elegant about his passing. Especially the way he'd get the trajectory of a pass, just dropping down perfectly for the forward player.

Obviously Rodgers had his views on how many players he could have for different positions. But, Sahin looked a really classy performer..

I wonder if he would go for a destroyer who is also a playmaker. That sort of player would most likely be very expensive - maybe 30m or so (or have to be very "up and coming"). A pure ballwinner eg a Mascherano of highish level could be picked up for 20m avg I reckon.

I also wonder if he is on the look out for a top winger or a Diego Costa type strike. Its unlikely we're gonna see a mega splurge and lots of signings in January. I'd personally prefer fewer player, but of top, top quality.

You also have to wonder whether the "brave" comment is a reference to the safety first approach of Lucas. And also the slightly "un-overconfident" Henderson.

These 2 look a lot like "able lieutenants" rather than lynchpins. Much like Wark, Lee and Whelan after Souness went. Able lieutenant isn't meant as condemnation. More than these players flourished when led by someone like Souness. But none of them ever looked to emulate the type of lynchpin qualities Souness had.

I am not sure if you are taking the piss out of me stuey but to put the record straight Gerry Byrne played the whole match (Bar the first couple of minutes) with a broken collarbone.Sad to say some of the so called stars today would come off if
they suffered a broken fingernail.

That was it Billy, having had a broken collarbone meself and me arm in a sling for3 weeks, its unimaginable that anyone could play anything but draughts for over an hour with that injury.
A broken leg would sting a bit as well.

That was it Billy, having had a broken collarbone meself and me arm in a sling for3 weeks, its unimaginable that anyone could play anything but draughts for over an hour with that injury.
A broken leg would sting a bit as well.

Cheers stuey,with the extra time Gerry Byrne played close to 2 hours with that injury.And he still had the strength to walk around Anfield with Gordon Milne and the F.A.Cup prior to the Inter Milan match on the following Wednesday.Never have I witnessed so much atmosphere as at Anfield that night.

Cheers stuey,with the extra time Gerry Byrne played close to 2 hours with that injury.And he still had the strength to walk around Anfield with Gordon Milne and the F.A.Cup prior to the Inter Milan match on the following Wednesday.Never have I witnessed so much atmosphere as at Anfield that night.

Billy, I know I'm spinning off topic a little. But how would you rate that era's team vs the top in Europe.
I understood we had great players, but that Shanks was a bit too cavalier in those days for European football. I mean, do you think we could have become really, really successful in Europe then?

That was when players were men not pampered celebrities!

That was when players were men not pampered celebrities!

Is true but you can't put all the blame on the players now as they are multimillion pound assets of the Club and therefore have to be protected as such.

I'd have Lucas on my list, too. Never shirks his responsibilities, backs himself in a challenge, plays smart and always uses the ball effectively for what his role in the team dictates. He'll never put his team mate under pressure with a pass and happy to keep the ball himself until other players are ready to receive it.

Don't know if I've worded that right because I'm not trying to praise his ability but his mentality for the role. His role requires being brave and he is.

Great to see BR going for this quality. It adds character and determination to succeed to our squad.

I'd have Lucas on my list, too. Never shirks his responsibilities, backs himself in a challenge, plays smart and always uses the ball effectively for what his role in the team dictates. He'll never put his team mate under pressure with a pass and happy to keep the ball himself until other players are ready to receive it.

Don't know if I've worded that right because I'm not trying to praise his ability but his mentality for the role. His role requires being brave and he is.

Great to see BR going for this quality. It adds character and determination to succeed to our squad.

100% agree on that Crouchy.

Billy, I know I'm spinning off topic a little. But how would you rate that era's team vs the top in Europe.
I understood we had great players, but that Shanks was a bit too cavalier in those days for European football. I mean, do you think we could have become really, really successful in Europe then?

We were/should of been successfull in Europe in 1965 but for 2 dubious referreing decisions at Inter Milan in the SEMI FINAL,we won the first leg at Anfield 3-1and lost the return leg at Inter 3-0.Bill Shankly was certainly never cavalier as he gradually replaced players season by season from 1959 onwards till 1964/5/6 when we won the league twice and the cup for the first time.Now if our manager was cavalier I sincerely hope that Brendan Rodgers gets cavalier and brings us the same success in the EPL,the F.A. Cup and Europe
 To get back on topic I regard most of our players in that ere as brave bearing in mind we had no subs in those days,in fact for Bill Shankly to go through a full season and only use 14 players indicates just how brave those lads were.     

I'd have Lucas on my list, too. Never shirks his responsibilities, backs himself in a challenge, plays smart and always uses the ball effectively for what his role in the team dictates. He'll never put his team mate under pressure with a pass and happy to keep the ball himself until other players are ready to receive it.

Don't know if I've worded that right because I'm not trying to praise his ability but his mentality for the role. His role requires being brave and he is.

Great to see BR going for this quality. It adds character and determination to succeed to our squad.

I don't think what you describe in Lucas's game is necessarily what BR is talking about. The attributes you describe are pretty spot on re Lucas though. But BR talks of technical ability and using the ball in other areas where players normally wouldn't - nothing that comes under your description, that's not to say BR doesn't rate Lucas's game and require a player like Lucas in his side. I don't think Lucas fits into the taxonomy alongside players like Suarez, Coutinho, Gerrard, Johnson, Strurridge, & Agger. He'd be in the next category for me alongside the likes of Allen (who I think is technically superior to Lucas), Henderson and Enrique.

Using phrases like "efficient" aren't synonymous with 'using the ball in areas where others wouldn't', one's 'simple' and the other is 'risky-er', I remember (I think it was after a Skertel back-pass where Citeh scored?? IIRC) Rodgers refused to critisise Skertel for taking this option because many CB's could have just hoofed it clear to safety, he liked Skertel's intention and said he wouldn't critisise a player for trying to play a ball like that because possession would have been kept, I think BR is alluding to this kind of play where courage and risk are needed in a pass. Lucas's game is more about the percentage passes, as you say "efficiency". I really don't think people can have it both ways, whereby they say Lucas is in the side to do a "specific" job, one that is no thrills, yet are happy to try and place him alongside said players where using the ball to create or play less percentage passes IS required.

I'd say that if Lucas falls into this category then so do three quarters of the squad, as we try to re-define Rodgers's term to accommodate Lucas.

I don't think what you describe in Lucas's game is necessarily what BR is talking about. The attributes you describe are pretty spot on re Lucas though. But BR talks of technical ability and using the ball in other areas where players normally wouldn't - nothing that comes under your description, that's not to say BR doesn't rate Lucas's game and require a player like Lucas in his side. I don't think Lucas fits into the taxonomy alongside players like Suarez, Coutinho, Gerrard, Johnson, Strurridge, & Agger. He'd be in the next category for me alongside the likes of Allen (who I think is technically superior to Lucas), Henderson and Enrique.

Using phrases like "efficient" aren't synonymous with 'using the ball in areas where others wouldn't', one's 'simple' and the other is 'risky-er', I remember (I think it was after a Skertel back-pass where Citeh scored?? IIRC) Rodgers refused to critisise Skertel for taking this option because many CB's could have just hoofed it clear to safety, he liked Skertel's intention and said he wouldn't critisise a player for trying to play a ball like that because possession would have been kept, I think BR is alluding to this kind of play where courage and risk are needed in a pass. Lucas's game is more about the percentage passes, as you say "efficiency". I really don't think people can have it both ways, whereby they say Lucas is in the side to do a "specific" job, one that is no thrills, yet are happy to try and place him alongside said players where using the ball to create or play less percentage passes IS required.

I'd say that if Lucas falls into this category then so do three quarters of the squad, as we try to re-define Rodgers's term to accommodate Lucas.

I think you just proved my point.

Lucas could easily play a more safe style whereby when he gets pressed or when he receives the ball on the edge of our area he could look long and hoof it, but he never does. He'll spray it around our midfield and defence on the ground.

You say BR's definition of brave was when Skrtel cocked up for a goal by trying to play out from the back, and that's exactly what Lucas does. He plays it out of defence and moves the ball forward, trying to maintain possession even though him misplacing one pass will lead to a opposition attacker being through on our goal.

You see my point? Again, i did say i may not of worded it right but i clearly stated i wasn't intending to make it sound like his technical ability and skill is my definition of brave, but his mentality to perform his role in the side requires being brave in itself because of the decisions he makes both in dispossessing an opposition player on the edge of our box with no fuss, and by being able to maintain possession in tight spaces in midfield.

Lucas could easily play a more safe style whereby when he gets pressed or when he receives the ball on the edge of our area he could look long and hoof it, but he never does. He'll spray it around our midfield and defence on the ground. 

In fairness Lucas is surrounded 360 degrees by team mates, so a pass is probably on more. Most DM's will retain possession, not many will hoof it.

I'd compare Mascha, Alonso and Lucas to highlight my point furthermore, I don't think Mascha was 'that' technically gifted perhaps a bit more than Lucas, and I don't think the Argie would use the ball in areas where others wouldn't, so I think Lucas and Mascha are pretty similar. Alonso would definitely fit into the catergory with Suarez, Coutinho et al because his technical ability was something else and he also had the ability to use the ball where others wouldn't.

Apologies, just read your last paragraph, (I would agree with you about Lucas's mentality BTW), in that you've used a different definition of 'brave' to what Rodgers said, which Lucas would fall into but perhaps not Rodgers's definition.

"I think my history as a coach shows I like players who are gifted technically and have courage when it comes to being in possession of a football".

Lucas has both. Courage doesn't translate to creativity and flair solely. His courage is portrayed through his ability to maintain possession under pressure and distribute it efficiently without being rash and keeping up the tempo of the team.

I know where you're coming from but I don't think I'm explaining it properly.

Lucas not technically gifted or skillful?

Just because he doesn't do it, it doesn't mean he can't.

Lucas Leiva managed zidane turn against villa player

If another player had done the above, people would be creaming their pants.

My fault. Another Lucas thread. Apologies.

Moving on....

For me personally, a good meassurement of a brave player, or whether a player is comfortable on the ball, and confident in his ability, is whether they think forward or not. I think the real brave players are always trying to look for a forward solution instead of a pass back or sideways. And I think Brendan also likes players who always want the ball, and can recieve the ball even when they're marked by a defender in their back.

Cheers stuey,with the extra time Gerry Byrne played close to 2 hours with that injury.And he still had the strength to walk around Anfield with Gordon Milne and the F.A.Cup prior to the Inter Milan match on the following Wednesday.Never have I witnessed so much atmosphere as at Anfield that night.

I'm jealous.  I would love to have been there, but it would have been a rather difficult proposition given that I was born three years later.

Anyway, I don't see anything like that happening again today in any sport with the way teams have the extensive medical teams and will yank a player off the field at the drop of a hat.  Then again, there was a football (the other football we play over here) player a few weeks ago who had part of his finger broken off and didn't know it until he took his gloves off on the sideline and part of his finger apparently stayed in the glove.

Guarantee you, we bring in a top quality central midfielder then we'll be winning the games that we are currently drawing.

Today was a fantastic game for the neutral, and even for myself as a Liverpool fan. There were a couple periods in the game where Everton had us on the back foot and we just needed one of those players to slow it down a bit. Someone like Xabi Alonso would've been perfect. Great vision, great composure, and always a step ahead.

Anyone who has to face Sakho is a brave man.