Great Managers

Who are the great managers and why?

It seems to me this title is losing all meaning in an age where super teams bolstered by unregulated spending are winning everything. Where a win at all cost mentality is pervasive; often resulting in rudimentary tactics executed by a team of the most expensive footballers on the planet. Yet the managers enter the pantheon of the greats.

In short how do you define a great manager and are there any around?

Trophies don't absolutely define a great manager. Philosophy does. Jimmy Hogan, Rinus Michels, Arrigo Sacchi our own Bill Shankly amongst others. These are men that implemented their original and progressive ideas through sheer hard work, determination and faith, the results of which were everlasting for decades, if not, then forever. And their greatness was built on the foundations of those qualities and without the financial 'necessities' that has infected the thought and operation of many of today's football men.
Greatness is projected by the thoughtful, not the wealthy .

Trophies don't absolutely define a great manager. Philosophy does. Jimmy Hogan, Rinus Michels, Arrigo Sacchi our own Bill Shankly amongst others. These are men that implemented their original and progressive ideas through sheer hard work, determination and faith, the results of which were everlasting for decades, if not, then forever. And their greatness was built on the foundations of those qualities and without the financial 'necessities' that has infected the thought and operation of many of today's football men.
Greatness is projected by the thoughtful, not the wealthy .

I agree. We have seen what the 'new' capitalism has done to competition, innovation and freedom. The football field is no different. Managers like Mourinho and Ancellotti clean up in trophies due to an unheard of advantage. THey belong to a small club of CEO managers who go from the wealthiest to the wealthiest clubs. However their charter isn't to win it is more 'not to lose'. They will win a few along the way unless they really f*ck it up. To do this they employ simple tactics and allow the strength of their squads to do the damage. Are these truly great managers?

I agree. We have seen what the 'new' capitalism has done to competition, innovation and freedom. The football field is no different. Managers like Mourinho and Ancellotti clean up in trophies due to an unheard of advantage. THey belong to a small club of CEO managers who go from the wealthiest to the wealthiest clubs. However their charter isn't to win it is more 'not to lose'. They will win a few along the way unless they really f*ck it up. To do this they employ simple tactics and allow the strength of their squads to do the damage. Are these truly great managers?

That's exactly it. I was watching the Bayern v Real match tonight and it struck me how, despite his two European Cups, how little I regarded Ancelotti as a 'great' manager. He's a very good one but I've never once thought of him as great. The fact he's been at the heavyweights of AC Milan (running very much on the beauty designs by previous regimes and influences), Chelsea, PSG and now Real doesn't do his impact on the sport any great justice. Mourinho's very much the same. At Porto he inherited a side with obvious talent, running on a legacy created by others. Since then it's very much been a shameless act of seducing/whoring himself out to the big money men.

What are these men but footballing gold diggers? Think of them as the Heather Mills and Kim Kardashian's of the football management world!

I don't believe it is as easy as buying the best players and sweeping all before you. If it was Chelsea wouldn't have had so many managers over the last 10 years, while  Citeh and R.Madrid would have no need to pay huge sums to attract the best managers, but would just employ a cheap journeyman manager to win the league.

Yes great managers win games with lesser players, but offer ANY manager the chance of a couple of world class players and they would snatch your hand off.

The great managers are the ones that leave a dynasty behind, a blueprint of what is needed to win trophies and leagues. Paisley was for me a great manager, yet he spent big money ( for the time), didn't write books on the tactics and philosophy of successful football,  changed the style, tactics and focus of the team quite frequently, probably depended on his players more than most, but most importantly won a bucketful of trophies.   

Systems come in and go out of fashion, there is no wonder system that is answer. The right system with the right players and the right tactics behind them will prove successful for a while, but eventually it will be superseded by another "wonder" system.

Great managers get the best out of the players at their disposal, bring in the right players and are tactically astute enough to adapt their tactics and style of play as required, and prove it is no fluke by building more than one great team.       

I don't believe it is as easy as buying the best players and sweeping all before you. If it was Chelsea wouldn't have had so many managers over the last 10 years, while  Citeh and R.Madrid would have no need to pay huge sums to attract the best managers, but would just employ a cheap journeyman manager to win the league.

It is that simple. The winners of the trophies correlate directly to the biggest spending teams. Its the reason why Messi and Ronaldo are breaking so many records, why the points records are falling in every league, the goal tallies etc. Paisley was on a far more even footing than the modern equivalent. The UCL and the national leagues are dominated by uber squads and they will win a manager schooled in the basics with experience in managing a big squad of stars.

It is that simple. The winners of the trophies correlate directly to the biggest spending teams. Its the reason why Messi and Ronaldo are breaking so many records, why the points records are falling in every league, the goal tallies etc. Paisley was on a far more even footing than the modern equivalent. The UCL and the national leagues are dominated by uber squads and they will win a manager schooled in the basics with experience in managing a big squad of stars.

No mate, you also need a manager capable of implementing the policy and building a team rather than 11 expensively talented individuals. Which is why for all the money Chelsea and Citeh  have spent they have only won the league on 4 occasions between them since 2003 while the mancs have won the league 6 times in that same period. It is why Chelsea have failed to dominate since Mourinho left and why they have both searched for a better manager. Surely if it was as simple as just pouring more money into the squad they would have just done that and kept whichever manager happened to be there and continued to win titles.

Yes, you need money but without the guidance and team building abilities of a top manager you will win little. Which is the reason that ALL the richest clubs appoint top managers rather than expecting wonders from Alladyce or Pullis.

It is no mystery why Mourinho has won so many titles in so many countries. Yes he needs money (and a lot of it) but others have had just as much and have not succeeded.... certainly not with the consistency he has shown. I don't believe Mourinho is a great manager but a pragmatic manager who will give a level of success in return for the investment. 

If what you believe was true AVB would still be at Chelsea rattling up the titles, Mancini still at Citeh etc etc. The reason they are not is that they failed even with the huge resources available to them, just as when Mourinho failed, even with both the huge finances and his experience at exploiting it he was moved on.

Money only takes you so far, a great manager can only take you so far, combine the two and you will have continued success.   

No mate, you also need a manager capable of implementing the policy and building a team rather than 11 expensively talented individuals. Which is why for all the money Chelsea and Citeh  have spent they have only won the league on 4 occasions between them since 2003 while the mancs have won the league 6 times in that same period. It is why Chelsea have failed to dominate since Mourinho left and why they have both searched for a better manager. Surely if it was as simple as just pouring more money into the squad they would have just done that and kept whichever manager happened to be there and continued to win titles.

Yes, you need money but without the guidance and team building abilities of a top manager you will win little. Which is the reason that ALL the richest clubs appoint top managers rather than expecting wonders from Alladyce or Pullis.

It is no mystery why Mourinho has won so many titles in so many countries. Yes he needs money (and a lot of it) but others have had just as much and have not succeeded.... certainly not with the consistency he has shown. I don't believe Mourinho is a great manager but a pragmatic manager who will give a level of success in return for the investment. 

If what you believe was true AVB would still be at Chelsea rattling up the titles, Mancini still at Citeh etc etc. The reason they are not is that they failed even with the huge resources available to them, just as when Mourinho failed, even with both the huge finances and his experience at exploiting it he was moved on.

Money only takes you so far, a great manager can only take you so far, combine the two and you will have continued success.   

I guarantee you S@int if Pulis and Allardyce managed Chelsea and Citeh next season and Mourinho and Pellegrini managed West Ham and Palace. Citeh and Chelsea would make up the top 3, West Ham and Palace would not get into Europe. As Pulis and Allardyce have no experience in the UCL this may be problem but I think they would probably be 1 of 8 teams capable of winning it.

I guarantee you S@int if Pulis and Allardyce managed Chelsea and Citeh next season and Mourinho and Pellegrini managed West Ham and Palace. Citeh and Chelsea would make up the top 3, West Ham and Palace would not get into Europe. As Pulis and Allardyce have no experience in the UCL this may be problem but I think they would probably be 1 of 8 teams capable of winning it.

No they wouldn't mate. I guarantee if Allardyce and Pullis managed Citeh and Chelsea they would be sacked before Christmas just as AVB was. I have no doubt West ham and Palace would not get into Europe either. As I said before, you need  money (for good players) AND a good manager for success. If you want continued success you need lots of money and a great manager.

Or to put it another way that you might understand.... If we had spent £100million in the summer we would be more than likely already Champions this season, but if we want to win the title on a regular basis we would need even more money and for Brendan to prove himself to be a great manager.

If Ferguson had stayed for another season with the mancs they would have challenged for the title, under Moyes they haven't even challenged for top 4.

But I thought Fat Sam once said if he was called  Allerdici he would have managed Real 

Just love that quote F***ing hilarious.

Or to put it another way that you might understand....

What am I thick?

How about this, myself and my identical twin both manage different teams. My team is bought by an Oligarch and my brothers is bought by Venky's. We both do the scouting and identify the same players, I get the A team he gets the B team. We both play the same tactics and I consistently finish above him in the league. Who is the better manager?

What am I thick?

No mate, I was just meaning that my explanation might have been poor and that perhaps I could make it clearer another way....not that you were thick.

No offence intended.

Sir Bob. And Brian Epstein!

No mate, I was just meaning that my explanation might have been poor and that perhaps I could make it clearer another way....not that you were thick.

No offence intended.

No worries. I agree with a lot of what you say and I am prejudiced by my own views but I really think money is exterting a stronger influence than ever. We see it in all businesses that are on the corporate scale. I think the biggest downside is the removal of innovation and the reliance on both outspending and weakening of the opposition.

Sir Bob. And Brian Epstein!

The one from 'Welcome Back Kotter'?

EL CHOLO

A great manager is one that gets his players to believe they are better than they are and gets them to then perform above their skill level. He is a leader of men that commands respect with simply a look. Maybe a bit romantic but while I can't very well describe the attributes of a great manager in words, I know one when I see one.

At this stage I suppose grade a club managers in terms of reputation include ancellotti, mourinho (he comes with a baggage), klopp, guardiola, simeone and possibly Rudi Garcia and Conte.

In the second pot you'd be looking at Rodgers (although his stock is rising massively), Pellagrini, wenger, Jorge Jesus, blanc, and Benitez.

At this stage I suppose grade a club managers in terms of reputation include ancellotti, mourinho (he comes with a baggage), klopp, guardiola, simeone and possibly Rudi Garcia and Conte.

In the second pot you'd be looking at Rodgers (although his stock is rising massively), Pellagrini, wenger, Jorge Jesus, blanc, and Benitez.

How did you sort that list?

I sorted the list based on opinion on who, if say Psg had a vacancy tomorrow, they would be looking at in terms of club managers.

Trophies don't absolutely define a great manager. Philosophy does. Jimmy Hogan, Rinus Michels, Arrigo Sacchi our own Bill Shankly amongst others. These are men that implemented their original and progressive ideas through sheer hard work, determination and faith, the results of which were everlasting for decades, if not, then forever. And their greatness was built on the foundations of those qualities and without the financial 'necessities' that has infected the thought and operation of many of today's football men.
Greatness is projected by the thoughtful, not the wealthy .

I agree mate, I doubt we'll see many "great" managers emerge in the coming decades, as they rarely get the opportunity to instill their philosophy.  Especially not in the top leagues.  How often do we see managers take over a club in the lower divisions, take them into the EPL after a few seasons, then get fired because they aren't winning? 

It's not because their methods don't work, they just need time to adapt them.  They're up against pre historic relics who prefer thugball to football one game then taking on a team of world class individuals the next.

Some don't even have a philosophy, they just assemble a squad of the best players money can buy and take it from there.  They win wherever they go because they have the best resources to pick from.  They get bored and move on.

I'd just like to add though I believe in Brendan Rodgers we have a future "great" on our hands and if and when he moves on he will have left behind a "great" philosophy for us to follow. 

Just like we did with Shanks, to Paisley, to Fagan, to Dalglish.  It just went a bit pearshaped after that 

I agree mate, I doubt we'll see many "great" managers emerge in the coming decades, as they rarely get the opportunity to instill their philosophy.  Especially not in the top leagues.  How often do we see managers take over a club in the lower divisions, take them into the EPL after a few seasons, then get fired because they aren't winning? 

It's not because their methods don't work, they just need time to adapt them.  They're up against pre historic relics who prefer thugball to football one game then taking on a team of world class individuals the next.

Some don't even have a philosophy, they just assemble a squad of the best players money can buy and take it from there.  They win wherever they go because they have the best resources to pick from.  They get bored and move on.

I'd just like to add though I believe in Brendan Rodgers we have a future "great" on our hands and if and when he moves on he will have left behind a "great" philosophy for us to follow. 

Just like we did with Shanks, to Paisley, to Fagan, to Dalglish.  It just went a bit pearshaped after that 

So true debs. After Dalglish a philosophical "reboot" was probably required but none of us could ever have known. That reboot has arrived, albeit 20 years later, but I'm sure it's a reboot that will hail in a succession of forward thinking and intelligent managers.

It's early days in Brendan's Liverpool career but to be talking of his possible legacy already is testament to the mesmerising and inspired work he has done so far.

I agree mate, I doubt we'll see many "great" managers emerge in the coming decades, as they rarely get the opportunity to instill their philosophy.  Especially not in the top leagues.  How often do we see managers take over a club in the lower divisions, take them into the EPL after a few seasons, then get fired because they aren't winning? 

It's not because their methods don't work, they just need time to adapt them.  They're up against pre historic relics who prefer thugball to football one game then taking on a team of world class individuals the next.

Some don't even have a philosophy, they just assemble a squad of the best players money can buy and take it from there.  They win wherever they go because they have the best resources to pick from.  They get bored and move on.

I'd just like to add though I believe in Brendan Rodgers we have a future "great" on our hands and if and when he moves on he will have left behind a "great" philosophy for us to follow. 

Just like we did with Shanks, to Paisley, to Fagan, to Dalglish.  It just went a bit pearshaped after that  ;

In an era of uber teams you can pretty much guarantee over  a 5 year period which teams will win most of the league titles and UCL; and if a billionaire buys a team in that period and goes on a spending spree then they join the list. The manager is 20% they say, if the other80% is top drawer; especially in a league format where the opposition is generally much weaker with shallower squads; then the manager is less important.

What we are seeing now in terms of managers at the richest clubs is generally experienced managers who can use their superior squads to overwhelm the opposition. They don't have to use 'genius' except against the other privileged clubs. In this respect we have really just seen the counterattack being employed and defensive organisation. The only really great team was Barca and that was a 20 year plan with many many hands on deck. Dortmund have been exceptional in the way the play and with less resources, I think Klopp rises above the pack for that reason. Atletico have done exceptionally well but we will have to wait and see but simeone must get credit. I will always respect a manager like Rafa, Klopp and Rodgers etc for getting results with less resources than a Mourinho, ancellotti or a Mancini for dining at the top table.

Great managers, the greatest football I saw was brazil 82 as a kid. Tele Santana had a lot do with that. Of course if you have zico, falcao, Socrates, junior, cerezo, eder and Leandro in your starting 11 it helps. The midfield movement In that team was crazy.

I know I am biased but I think rafa's masterminding of our UCL campaigns before H&G killed us, was also genius given the squad and having to secure UCL qualification also every year in a league as tough as the EPL. I respect Klopp for this.