Who leads LFC, now?....

The club goes on.... but at what level?

The past few years have seen us lose names like Carra, Agger, Kuyt and Reina.
Now, when Gerrard is gone, where/who is the spine? We have all agreed he was losing pace, but Its not just those that play on the pitch week in week out that are the basis of the spine.... the dressing room needs characters, senior words, arms around shoulders and COURAGE.

Who are the Senior players? Whose picking us up when we are 2-1 down at half time against the Mancs or bitters... someone that knows what the essence of those matches are all about.

Henderson, imo, has yet to develop into a leader...but he could be the one?
Skrtel.... Jesus could he be the most important player at the squad now?
Lucas.... senior, gives his all... does he have the ability?

Are we in a pickle? Its all well known that young squads struggle when put to the Kosh.... Leadership is key. Arsenal have gone through similar changes... but survived.

Imagine what the difference a Sami (at his peak) would make with regards leadership, within this current squad?

Where do we go from here? Bring senior players in? They wont be senior at LFC and understand the ethos....

Is the last vertebrae of the LFC spine leaving us in May?

On what players do we rebuild....

It doesn't need a senior player it needs the right player. We are devoid of leaders around our captain and now he's going it will create an even bigger void.

If it's not addressed we could really suffer, a team without true leaders is not a team that will succeed.

I see it so often in all walks of life not just football, where the leader is deemed to need to have seniority to get the respect from his peers to lead them. In reality you need the right man taking you into battle, if you get this right regards of age leaders will be formed around the catalyst and create a true unstoppable force.

I think we'll see leaders step up, it'll be a natural thing hopefully. Gerrard was so strong so it's only natural to think no one can fill the captains shoes, and they don't have to, they only have to fill their own shoes and that's all we can ask.

I think Sakho looks like the player who could step up and become a leader out of anyone in our squad.

I think we'll see leaders step up, it'll be a natural thing hopefully. Gerrard was so strong so it's only natural to think no one can fill the captains shoes, and they don't have to, they only have to fill their own shoes and that's all we can ask.

Ah ye Im not asking or expecting anyone to fill his shoes. No chance. Just struggling to see who we have left that will lead us well going forward.

I think Sakho looks like the player who could step up and become a leader out of anyone in our squad.

Thought about mentioning him. Could be a future captain, maybe not under Rodgers though.

I actually think it's a natural evolution of modern day football that teams are no longer defined by certain players alone. SG has been Mr Liverpool for over a decade now, that it's difficult to imagine us without him.

But that's not to say we need a direct replacement, or even an iconic, senior figure to be a leader of the club. I think the team needs to evolve to have several leaders on the field. I look at all modern day great football teams and this is true in all cases.

Barca is rarely talked about without Messi, but what they have strong characters all over the pitch including Xavi, Iniesta, Mascha and Pique...all of whom are leaders in their own right but work together to control games. Real and Munich are very much the same.

I'm an optimist, so I'm hoping SG's departure will allow players like Hendo, Can, Sakho and possibly Lovren (if he can get his arse into gear and start performing) to lead in every area of the pitch. They may find they can step out of SG's considerable shadow.

That said, I'm a little worried about the lack of leadership being displayed by any of them at the moment, though must be said, they haven't exactly had many opportunities to do so with Stevie always being the leader.

In terms of potential "leadership level" players, I think Lovren and Sakho COULD reach that level at some pt in the future.
Sterling perhaps. Maybe the Manquillo and Moreno... albeit differently. Can.. its guesswork at this stage. Likewise with Markovic.

But so many of the players - just have also-ran written all over them. I'm thinking Lambert, Balotelli, Mignolet, Lucas(due to cruel injries) amongst oyhers.

Players like Can, Markovic, Manquillo, Moreno, Lovren, Sakho, Sterling are atleast 3 years away from being highly dependable players. Infact some or even MOST of them may never reach the level traditionally expected of Liverpool.

To field a team without experience is as moronic and offensive as fielding a team without a goalkeeper.

I'm not so sure we're as devoid of leaders as is being asserted here…

I've not been amongst those detractors of Gerrard who have lately been especially vocal. I've tried to keep his contribution in perspective even amongst a few sub-standard performances because, like any player, you take the good with the bad and there is a "net" positive with Stevie's influence to say the least.


That said, I've noticed more than one team performance in the past that clearly wasn't going to involve our captain, and the team bucked up and performed. Hendo comes to mind. Stevie will be missed as a true giant of this club, but he will be missed less on the pitch than he would have been in years past. It was always going to come to this and the game against Leicester makes me wish BR had had the assuredness to sacrifice Stevie and keep Hendo in the middle. It utterly changed our style and drained our influence in midfield, allowing them back into the game when we were 2-0 up.

Without Stevie to look to, our team has, in the past, been forced to look within to take it to the next level. It seems that too often in a game, the younger players look to him for inspiration and do things like pass to him when it makes more sense to get it to someone else.

I think it's more psychological than anyone's fault in particular. I have high hopes for this team, even without a true giant of the game like Gerrard.

To be honest I think Gerrard is the last in a dying breed of footballer .
The box to box midfielder capable of grabbing a a game by the throat and running it.
Vieria keane souness gascoine Gerrard  scholes these are just of the top my head .
Footballers now are just becoming super athletes and almost automons devoid of fight spirit passion.:-(

Lallana was given the armband at Southampton at a similar age to when Stevie was given it here. He could potentially be a leader but without being vocal, more of leading by example.

Lallana was given the armband at Southampton at a similar age to when Stevie was given it here. He could potentially be a leader but without being vocal, more of leading by example.

I actually thought about Lallana too, but really would prefer someone more vocal, someone who doesn't mind giving out sh*t to players when they're not tracking back, not organising themselves properly etc.

Having said that, if we had a Carra or Hyppia type at the back, you don't need a vocal captain. Really thought Lovren would be that, so disappointing so far from him.

It's probably a toss-up between Henderson, Lucas and Skrtel, though I'm not sure I'd give the armband to any of them.

Future - Flanagan?

I think some posts are right about the dying breathe of grass routes footballers staying with their boyhood club is well gone. Shame.
So we need the players to step up to the plate in Stevie's absense we could fill the void. Sakho, Skrtel, Lallana, Can (maybe), Lovren (eventually hopefully), Henderson and Lucas will all be key in the coming seasons.

One thought crossed my mind in work today, Hope we are not turning into a sinking ship, the way the side are playing lately.

we'll see in summer who will stand out

It's probably a toss-up between Henderson, Lucas and Skrtel, though I'm not sure I'd give the armband to any of them.

Agree. Henderson being full time captain of my club will depress me. He's been 2nd rate for the majority of his time at Anfield is the harsh reality. Lucas will probably be sold and Skrtel is brainless.

It'll feel like when Massimo Ambrosini became captain of Milan after Maldini - an acceptance of mediocrity had begun.

This should be our new spine following the summer transfer window...

Handanovic

Sakho

Cabaye

Sturridge

And the dots around the spine...

Handanovic

Montoya - Schär - Sakho - Moreno

Schneiderlin

Cabaye - Henderson

Sterling - Sturridge - Shaqiri

Lallana and Sakho have been captains

Reina, Agger, Carragher, Gerrard...they were all proper would-run-through-a-brick-wall captain material.

There's no one is this squad currently who comes close. Henderson is the closest, but he doesn't have the composure necessary to lead by example as a captain.

I wonder if the lack of comparable passion shown for the club is one of the reasons we've fallen so far this year. The only other player who showed that passion was Suarez.

Going off nothing but "vibes" over who I think could be a good captain out of the squad, I'd say Emre Can.

Loads of off topic content, deleted.

Agenda driven bullshit is boring to read.

This is a boss topic if people give it the time of day. The future on the pitch, who's going to pop up from the current squad?

Henderson is the clear favourite for me.

Flanagan bleeds Liverpool, and if he can continue playing with the confidence of last year, then why not?

P.S. When the hell is Flanagan coming back? We need his character desperately.

Lallana was given the armband at Southampton at a similar age to when Stevie was given it here. He could potentially be a leader but without being vocal, more of leading by example.

Good thinking mate, although Couts could also go in the same category, leading by example not so much vocally.

I heard Joe Allen is a great leader. So is Balotelli

Henderson being full time captain of my club will depress me. He's been 2nd rate for the majority of his time at Anfield is the harsh reality.

You're going to get a lot of stick for that but you're bang on.  He's been actually worse than second rate for the majority of his time with us.  But he had a blinder during the second half of last season and so everyone suddenly forgets that he was total rubbish for two entire seasons before that and has gone back to being rubbish this season.  The lowering of standards at our club over the last few years is really shocking, we used to have Xabi, Masch and Stevie in their prime in midfield and now we are apparently supposed to sing the praises of mediocre players like Henderson and Allen.

Although to be fair to Henderson, I think that if he were made permanent captain it would say more about the squad than about him.  It's not his fault he's the only one even remotely qualified. 

I think if Sakho keeps improving and can hold down a starting spot, he could be a good shot for the time being.  He seems to be one of the few who actually cares on the pitch.  If Toure were younger he'd be a good option too. 

in fact the whole issue of who is captain just further shows how idiotic it was to sell Suarez.  Luis was one of the most talented players ever to wear the red shirt, but what made him truly world-class was that he also worked harder than anyone on our team.  He was the most talented by far but also never stopped fighting, he always tracked back, he pressed non-stop etc.  He was our hardest working player and yet because of his talent, that sometimes got overlooked.

Point is, he would have been the perfect captain as his work ethic was infectious; since he was at the top of the pitch, all the players behind him would see how hard he worked for the team, and they would think "if Luis Suarez works that hard and is that passionate, I have to be too" and they would match that intensity.  they would literally be looking up (the pitch) at him, seeing how hard a captain works and how no matter how talented you are, you have to work hard too. 

He would've been perfect.  oh well.

You're going to get a lot of stick for that but you're bang on.  He's been actually worse than second rate for the majority of his time with us.  But he had a blinder during the second half of last season and so everyone suddenly forgets that he was total rubbish for two entire seasons before that and has gone back to being rubbish this season.  The lowering of standards at our club over the last few years is really shocking, we used to have Xabi, Masch and Stevie in their prime in midfield and now we are apparently supposed to sing the praises of mediocre players like Henderson and Allen.

Although to be fair to Henderson, I think that if he were made permanent captain it would say more about the squad than about him.  It's not his fault he's the only one even remotely qualified. 

I think if Sakho keeps improving and can hold down a starting spot, he could be a good shot for the time being.  He seems to be one of the few who actually cares on the pitch.  If Toure were younger he'd be a good option too. 

in fact the whole issue of who is captain just further shows how idiotic it was to sell Suarez.  Luis was one of the most talented players ever to wear the red shirt, but what made him truly world-class was that he also worked harder than anyone on our team.  He was the most talented by far but also never stopped fighting, he always tracked back, he pressed non-stop etc.  He was our hardest working player and yet because of his talent, that sometimes got overlooked.

Point is, he would have been the perfect captain as his work ethic was infectious; since he was at the top of the pitch, all the players behind him would see how hard he worked for the team, and they would think "if Luis Suarez works that hard and is that passionate, I have to be too" and they would match that intensity.  they would literally be looking up (the pitch) at him, seeing how hard a captain works and how no matter how talented you are, you have to work hard too. 

He would've been perfect.  oh well.

+1

The real fighters left in the team for me are Sakho,Coutinho,Lallana,Toure. I never seen these players hiding , even when it is tough they tried to make something happen. For that reason alone Hendo doesn't cut it. He himself need some one else to motivate him when things go tough. He always hides when we face quality sides.

Henderson is the clear favourite for me.

From the current squad it has to be Henderson for me too

The thing is we have a young squad so there aren't that many clear stand outs beyond him.

I don't agree with this hiding thing some are accusing him of, he very rarely hides.. That shouldn't be confused with having poor games but all players do.. He is someone always encouraging his team mates, talking to them, bollocking them when needed.. He is the main one that the manager talks to to get tactical instructions on the pitch.. He has a good understanding of the game, he wears the armband when he has this season with that sense of leadership.
He may not be an obvious choice like a Gerrard was or a Carra, Hyypia in recent times but within this young squad we lack those types.

If you look at the other options.

Sakho. Looks a leader and has at PSG and France but hasn't established himself here fully yet and hasn't cracked the language fully yet

Skrtel. Needs to fully concentrate on his own game to me to be at his best, not a natural leader and the added distraction wouldn't help his game. A possible vice captain within the current squad but for me isn't what we should really be looking at as captain

Lucas. Depends on his future, has respect of the players I think but it depends on his long term future, I don't think his legs means he starts every game either so again for me more a vice captain rather than the main man.

Lallana. Saw him mentioned but not been at the club long enough to be considered. I also think there was more a chance he captained Southampton with the length of his time there and respect he held due to that rather than being such a stand out leader he can become the leader of a club like ours having only been here 6 months

Lovren. Far too much to prove yet

Flanagan. Needs to establish himself longer term yet before he gets into these conversations.

Toure. No long term future at the club where we are so can't be considered.

So for me where we currently stand in this squad

Henderson Captain
Lucas Vice (if he stays)

If Lucas moved on I'd take a punt on Sakho as vice and build the back line round him

From the current squad it has to be Henderson for me too

The thing is we have a young squad so there aren't that many clear stand outs beyond him.

I don't agree with this hiding thing some are accusing him of, he very rarely hides.. That shouldn't be confused with having poor games but all players do.. He is someone always encouraging his team mates, talking to them, bollocking them when needed.. He is the main one that the manager talks to to get tactical instructions on the pitch.. He has a good understanding of the game, he wears the armband when he has this season with that sense of leadership.
He may not be an obvious choice like a Gerrard was or a Carra, Hyypia in recent times but within this young squad we lack those types.

If you look at the other options.

Sakho. Looks a leader and has at PSG and France but hasn't established himself here fully yet and hasn't cracked the language fully yet

Skrtel. Needs to fully concentrate on his own game to me to be at his best, not a natural leader and the added distraction wouldn't help his game. A possible vice captain within the current squad but for me isn't what we should really be looking at as captain

Lucas. Depends on his future, has respect of the players I think but it depends on his long term future, I don't think his legs means he starts every game either so again for me more a vice captain rather than the main man.

Lallana. Saw him mentioned but not been at the club long enough to be considered. I also think there was more a chance he captained Southampton with the length of his time there and respect he held due to that rather than being such a stand out leader he can become the leader of a club like ours having only been here 6 months

Lovren. Far too much to prove yet

Flanagan. Needs to establish himself longer term yet before he gets into these conversations.

Toure. No long term future at the club where we are so can't be considered.

So for me where we currently stand in this squad


Henderson Captain
Lucas Vice (if he stays)

If Lucas moved on I'd take a punt on Sakho as vice and build the back line round him

Pretty much my take - I might be inclined to go Flanno for vice captain....if BR sees him as a starter.

Definitely not Skrtel or Lovren in either. IF we sign an "established" keeper wouldn't be surprised to see him as VC.

Pretty much my take - I might be inclined to go Flanno for vice captain....if BR sees him as a starter.

Definitely not Skrtel or Lovren in either. IF we sign an "established" keeper wouldn't be surprised to see him as VC.

I do tend to agree with Flanno, but like I said for me he needs to really establish himself in the side first.. He had a really good six months but we have seen that type of six months from plenty in the past who level out and don't stay at that level.
The injury for him came at the wrong time but of he gets back and continues at the level of the 6 months last year then he certainly comes into the conversation

I'd love nothing more than in 5 years that he has 200+  apparences under his belt and is one of our leaders
Time will tell

I heard Joe Allen is a great leader.

Think I'd trust Josef Stalin more. 

does Sakho speak English?

I think quite a few leaders will emerge over the coming weeks now that Stevies decision has been made public.  Sometimes having a Club legend as Captain can prevent others stepping up as they don't want to be seen as undermining the hierarchy, this isn't because they aren't confident enough but as a mark of respect which is a good sign of leadership.

I don't necessarily believe that age or seniority makes a better leader either, it's a quality that you either have or don't have but it usually shows at an early age rather than developing later in life.

Hendo is the kind of Captain who will relish the opportunity to lead his troops, he's a proud guy just like Stevie so he understands what an honour it is that he's our Captain.  I think he'll do great and I think he'll raise his game because of it. 

As for VC I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Studge.  He's a leader from the front, well liked by the squad and is great with the younger players.

does Sakho speak English?

Just make the rest of the squad learn French.

I think quite a few leaders will emerge over the coming weeks now that Stevies decision has been made public.  Sometimes having a Club legend as Captain can prevent others stepping up as they don't want to be seen as undermining the hierarchy, this isn't because they aren't confident enough but as a mark of respect which is a good sign of leadership.

I don't necessarily believe that age or seniority makes a better leader either, it's a quality that you either have or don't have but it usually shows at an early age rather than developing later in life.

Hendo is the kind of Captain who will relish the opportunity to lead his troops, he's a proud guy just like Stevie so he understands what an honour it is that he's our Captain.  I think he'll do great and I think he'll raise his game because of it. 

As for VC I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Studge.  He's a leader from the front, well liked by the squad and is great with the younger players.

This.

I ask anyone to look back to when Stevie was out at Christmas 2013, I thought Hendo stepped up to the plate and on performances alone could have kept Stevie out of the team in my opinion had it not been how well Gerrard linked up with Suarez and Sturridge.

Good call for Sturridge for VC if Hendo gets the armband. As I stated in a previous thread, I feel a lot of people are judging Hendo in the same mould as Lucas in his first few seasons here.

You're going to get a lot of stick for that but you're bang on.  He's been actually worse than second rate for the majority of his time with us.  But he had a blinder during the second half of last season and so everyone suddenly forgets that he was total rubbish for two entire seasons before that and has gone back to being rubbish this season.  The lowering of standards at our club over the last few years is really shocking, we used to have Xabi, Masch and Stevie in their prime in midfield and now we are apparently supposed to sing the praises of mediocre players like Henderson and Allen.

Although to be fair to Henderson, I think that if he were made permanent captain it would say more about the squad than about him.  It's not his fault he's the only one even remotely qualified. 

I think if Sakho keeps improving and can hold down a starting spot, he could be a good shot for the time being.  He seems to be one of the few who actually cares on the pitch.  If Toure were younger he'd be a good option too. 

in fact the whole issue of who is captain just further shows how idiotic it was to sell Suarez.  Luis was one of the most talented players ever to wear the red shirt, but what made him truly world-class was that he also worked harder than anyone on our team.  He was the most talented by far but also never stopped fighting, he always tracked back, he pressed non-stop etc.  He was our hardest working player and yet because of his talent, that sometimes got overlooked.

Point is, he would have been the perfect captain as his work ethic was infectious; since he was at the top of the pitch, all the players behind him would see how hard he worked for the team, and they would think "if Luis Suarez works that hard and is that passionate, I have to be too" and they would match that intensity.  they would literally be looking up (the pitch) at him, seeing how hard a captain works and how no matter how talented you are, you have to work hard too. 

He would've been perfect.  oh well.

Yeah he would have been perfect except that when he wasn't suspended he tried to force a move to Arsenal then suceeded in forcing a move to Barcelona.

Of the players who actually want to be at the club, Henderson has been captain of England at U21 level, impressed Capello enough to get an early senior call up and, at 24, has done enough to be given the Vice captaincy by our manager.

Given that he has been shifted around a lot this season and played in an under-performing team i think he has played alright. He has not hit the heights of last season but there is no reason to thik that he won't do since he is clearly intelligent and is, as pointed out before, age 24.

Yeah he would have been perfect except that when he wasn't suspended he tried to force a move to Arsenal then suceeded in forcing a move to Barcelona.

Stevie also openly courted a move to Chelsea of all clubs and was too scared of losing his expensive salary to speak up under H&G even though Carra said the entire squad repeatedly asked him to speak out publicly against them.

but hey ho let's not let facts get in the way of things.

Has to be Henderson for me. I think he has a possible 7/8 seasons ahead of him at his best, he will thrive off off the added responsibility and the trust placed in him will raise his game to a new level.

Also other than him it is very slim pickings really.

Stevie also openly courted a move to Chelsea of all clubs and was too scared of losing his expensive salary to speak up under H&G even though Carra said the entire squad repeatedly asked him to speak out publicly against them.

but hey ho let's not let facts get in the way of things.

Yet if we are talking facts Rafa also asked him to leave the talking out against them to him and not to speak out in public

And also if we are talking facts Steven stayed and Luis didn't ultimately

Neither will be here next season though so aren't in the conversation

Yet if we are talking facts Rafa also asked him to leave the talking out against them to him and not to speak out in public

yea that's convenient isn't it.  Stevie and Rafa never got on and if Rafa told Stevie not to jump off a cliff he would have done just to spite Rafa.  and yet suddenly Rafa tells Stevie not to speak out against H&G and Stevie "reluctantly" goes along with it?  give me a f**king break.  Both Carra and Pepe said the entire squad pushed Stevie to come out and say something not only as captain of the team but as a representative of the club he loved his whole life.  and you're telling me he would have done if Rafa hadn't held him back?  Stevie never gave two shits about what Rafa said anyway.  why would he suddenly say "well I want to, but Rafa told me not to..."

Let's just call a spade a spade.  Stevie was too afraid to speak out against H&G despite every single player in the squad wanting him to do it. 

and he didn't.  End of.

yea that's convenient isn't it.  Stevie and Rafa never got on and if Rafa told Stevie not to jump off a cliff he would have done just to spite Rafa.  and yet suddenly Rafa tells Stevie not to speak out against H&G and Stevie "reluctantly" goes along with it?  give me a f**king break.  Both Carra and Pepe said the entire squad pushed Stevie to come out and say something not only as captain of the team but as a representative of the club he loved his whole life.  and you're telling me he would have done if Rafa hadn't held him back?  Stevie never gave two shits about what Rafa said anyway.  why would he suddenly say "well I want to, but Rafa told me not to..."

Let's just call a spade a spade.  Stevie was too afraid to speak out against H&G despite every single player in the squad wanting him to do it. 

and he didn't.  End of.

I'm not getting into it in this thread as it's not for this conversation

But you said facts

Rafa said he asked Steven not to speak out. That's a fact

I don't know what went on behind the scenes and neither do you.. That's just conjecture

It was a horrible time and we don't know what went on behind the scenes.

I don't know what your issue is with driving every single thread currently into slagging off Gerrard

So please give us all a break








Henderson skipper for me in the current squad

I don't know what your issue is with driving every single thread currently into slagging off Gerrard

I'm not slagging him off.  He is a club legend.  But I just find the whole idea that Stevie is some kind of martyr to be patently absurd.  He's leaving because he wants more money, that's what it comes down to.  And yet everyone pretends that isn't an issue.  And he isn't some kind of saint.  He flirted like a prostitute with Chelsea of all clubs, and he was too scared to come out and give voice to the players' concerns in a time where we came within an inch of going out of existence. 

He is one of the all time greats at the club but in terms of both quality and integrity he will always be number two to Dalglish. 

Anyway.  You're right, he's not going to be here next season he's not relevant in this thread.  The point is that he is not the leader everyone plays him up to be, either on the pitch or off of it.

Henderson is only one that can do it in this current squad so he's got to be the choice for me (don't want a new summer signing getting the job straight away). He's not afraid of speaking up (do remember him tearing into Gerrard a few weeks ago when he decided to go for something clever rather than seeing out a one goal lead) and his work rate in midfield could inspire the players around him.

The situation we're in now is a direct result of our recruitment policy, bringing in potential after potential without proven talent to guide their development. It's what I was pointing to in the Summer. There are no leaders because the majority of our players are inexperienced and the ones that aren't, are frankly sh*t. We lack a single player who would walk in to the United, City or Chelsea side and arguably only two players who would walk in any other team in last year's top seven and out of this motley crew of mediocrity we're looking for a new Gerrard, new Hyypia, new Hansen, new Souness? Henderson will most likely be made Captain and he's probably the best choice from a bad lot but the idea fills me with sadness and fear for our future.

He's leaving because he wants more money, that's what it comes down to. 

He's leaving because he wants more game time and after sounding out other top European clubs and having no takers, it leaves him with the Middle East, Australia or the States.

I do tend to agree with Flanno, but like I said for me he needs to really establish himself in the side first.. He had a really good six months but we have seen that type of six months from plenty in the past who level out and don't stay at that level.
The injury for him came at the wrong time but of he gets back and continues at the level of the 6 months last year then he certainly comes into the conversation

I'd love nothing more than in 5 years that he has 200+  apparences under his belt and is one of our leaders
Time will tell

In fairness I think you're probably right PD in practical terms. The misty eyed romantic in me just likes the idea of replacing Stevie with another kid who'll bleed red.

 

I'm here all week.....

I would think that at a bare minimum the next captain should prove that he is undroppable and essential to the starting XI.  That rules out Flanagan.  And it rules out Henderson who goes missing and hides more often than not.  The only undroppable ones are Sterling and Coutinho really.  Neither of them seems to be good captain material in my eyes.

Maybe Lallana could be a good shout. 

Slightly gone off topic, into whom should be captain..... And struggling to see past hendo. So does he have enough leadership to lift the team when we are struggling? Toure could be the main part of the spine, playing or not. Characters and experience are key when you have such a young squad.

So players with experience, leadership and characters as I see it are;

Chelsea; terry, ivanovich, Cahill, fabregas, magic?, drogba.
Scum; Carrick, Evans, Rooney.
Arsenal; mertesacker, arteta,
City; Kompany, yaya, Lampard,Zabaletta, milner?
Liverpool; skrtel, toure, Henderson, Lucas, Sakho.

I would like to see Lucas given a go tbh, only thing is, could he hold his place down in the side, depending on the opposition and formation of the side.

It'll be Henderson due to him being the vice captain and he captained the England U-21s for a while. He's the obvious choice to becoming captain. Quite a turnaround for somebody who Rodgers was showing the door to not so long ago.

After that, the options are limited. I've suggested Lallana due to him formerly captaining the Saints. I wouldn't be surprised to see Skrtel get the vice-captaincy. Rodgers obviously rates him as there isn't a game that goes by where he doesn't play. He's been with the club for years. Once Stevie leaves, Skrtel will have played more games for the club than other member of the current squad. And I think there's been the odd game where he has taken the armband previously.

I see some suggesting Sakho, he doesn't scream leader to me. He screams liability. Also do you want a captain who walked out on his team ahead of the biggest game of the season? I don't see Lucas being here past the summer if I'm honest which kinda rules him out, same with Toure. Lovren needs to establish himself as a solid centre half before even thinking about being considered a leader. Emre Can looks captain material but he needs to establish himself in the team first and show his leadership qualities.

Coutinho is an interesting suggestion, maybe in the same sort of mould as Modric. The creative spark who links everything together. While he's no Souness in terms of obvious captain material, he could be the one to lead by example. He's also good for getting stuck in when need be, been a few times where he's squared up to the opposition.

I would think that at a bare minimum the next captain should prove that he is undroppable and essential to the starting XI.  That rules out Flanagan.  And it rules out Henderson who goes missing and hides more often than not.  The only undroppable ones are Sterling and Coutinho really.  Neither of them seems to be good captain material in my eyes.

Maybe Lallana could be a good shout.

Undroppable players are GJ and Skrtel according to our team sheets. But are they essential to starting XI? 

Slightly gone off topic, into whom should be captain..... And struggling to see past hendo. So does he have enough leadership to lift the team when we are struggling? Toure could be the main part of the spine, playing or not. Characters and experience are key when you have such a young squad.

So players with experience, leadership and characters as I see it are;

Chelsea; terry, ivanovich, Cahill, fabregas, magic?, drogba.
Scum; Carrick, Evans, Rooney.
Arsenal; mertesacker, arteta,
City; Kompany, yaya, Lampard,Zabaletta, milner?
Liverpool; skrtel, toure, Henderson, Lucas, Sakho.

Coutinho provides plenty of that.

Coutinho provides plenty of that.

Experience, leadership? Not sure mate. Hes the dogs bollix on the pitch, and our best player right now but is he one to speak up in the dressing room before or during a match to lift the team?

Maybe Im making too much of the need for the spine, but I'm concerned. Think we have missed a trick here. Gerrard going is like our last big name, our last true scouse, our last player who bleeds liverpool. Carra and him were so vital to the squad.

Slightly going off on a tangent here but, who is the player who will attract big names to the club now? Ye I know the club is bigger than anyone player... but we have NO big names, studge could (maybe is already) be world class and needs a consistent run to get that notoriety. Gerrard is a god of football, bigger name than Suarez, up there with Messi.

Looking at the team post Gerrard, I just dont see a great team - Purely based on status/names, if you know what I mean?

Coutinho provides plenty of that.

Oh I see what you were referring to. Ha Damn autocorrect. "Matic"..... He is Magic for them now though. Ha

yea that's convenient isn't it.  Stevie and Rafa never got on and if Rafa told Stevie not to jump off a cliff he would have done just to spite Rafa. and yet suddenly Rafa tells Stevie not to speak out against H&G and Stevie "reluctantly" goes along with it?  give me a f**king break.  Both Carra and Pepe said the entire squad pushed Stevie to come out and say something not only as captain of the team but as a representative of the club he loved his whole life.  and you're telling me he would have done if Rafa hadn't held him back?  Stevie never gave two shits about what Rafa said anyway.  why would he suddenly say "well I want to, but Rafa told me not to..."

Let's just call a spade a spade.  Stevie was too afraid to speak out against H&G despite every single player in the squad wanting him to do it. 

and he didn't.  End of.

Didnt look like Gerrard and Rafa were the best pals around but your black and white view of the world fed is ridiculous.

The other motivational force for Gerrard is his manager at Liverpool, Rafael Benitez. It has not always been a comfortable relationship, Gerrard’s tendency to positional indiscipline – a playground footballer is the most common criticism, always chasing the action – at first grated against Benitez’s equally instinctive desire for order.

Over time, they developed mutual respect. Gerrard for Benitez’s meticulous attention to detail and his relentless drive for improvement: Benitez for Gerrard’s match-defining qualities.

'Even after five years with Rafa, I still feel I want to please him, that I want to impress him in every game I play,' Gerrard added.'The great managers are like that. There are a handful operating on a different level and I am lucky enough to play for two of them, Benitez and Fabio Capello.
'It is when you see what they put in, some of the little things they spot, that you realise how hard they work. Rafa will make a point, and you’ll be thinking, "Has this guy not got a life?" because it seems so minor, but it is what sets him apart.
'I can have a good game – tell you what, I’ll be big-headed, say I’ve had a fantastic game – we’ve won 2-1 in the last minute and I’ve scored both. 'I come back into the dressing-room and I’m buzzing, bouncing off the walls, thinking "I feel good today", that is when Rafa comes up and starts talking about a throw-in when they changed the play and I pressed far too late. He’ll say: "If you want, we’ll go out there and I’ll show you".

'Or you’ll have a run of 10 games when you’re in form and flying and he’ll pop you a DVD of your recent play and it’s broken up into sections good and bad. And you’re thinking, "Hang on, bad? I didn’t do anything wrong". But you’ll watch it and you’re out of position in one match, or you pressed late or you let a man go at a set-piece. You wonder when the guy sleeps.

'At first when he did things like that, I’d be asking, "Has he not watched my last 150 games for Liverpool?" There is a danger that you think he has it in for you because he pulls you so much.

'When he arrived, he would keep saying to me "Left foot, left foot" or I’d shoot and he would say "hit the target" and I’m thinking, "Look, mate, I’m trying to hit the f***ing target".
'I would say to people "I'm 26 – if he doesn’t think my left foot’s working now, it’s never going to work" but then a few weeks later I scored with my left and he came up with a little smile and said "lucky goal today, left foot and it hit the target" and then the penny dropped.

'Finally, I realised it was the way he helped push you on and as a player you either recognised it or fought it and, with these guys, if you fight it there is only one winner.
'I think that was why I adapted to Fabio Capello slightly better than some of the England players because his style was similar to what I had experienced with Rafa. He has that same way of keeping your feet on the ground in the moments when you’re thinking you are a bit good."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1216111/STEVEN-GERRARD-EXCLUSIVE-The-trial-changed-It-frightening-I-celebrate-bar--Liverpool-England-star-frank.html

You lost Jamie Carragher a couple of years ago, now Steven is going to leave. How important is that Scouse heart in the team and how do you replace it?

Certainly from a management perspective, not too many managers get to have to manage that situation. Jamie was an incredible player here for the club and has gone on to have a successful career outside of football now. He was pretty much clear in what he wanted to do. Stevie will move on at the end of the season and for us, it's about finding the next one. It's a difficult ask - you've got one of the leading players in world football over the last 10-15 years, but it happens to all the great players and as a football club you've got to look to find the next ones. There is a lot of great work going on in our Academy with a real focus on the players that are on our own doorstep. Now it is easy to look away from your own doorstep and look abroad, but for us we're trying to find the talents - of which I believe there are many - in and around the Merseyside area and Liverpool. That's the challenge now, looking for the next one. There is only one Steven Gerrard, but we have to look for the next talents to come through.

When you took over, you maybe thought the end of Gerrard's Liverpool career would come on your watch. Was there a long-term plan from the beginning in terms of thinking 'in two years' time we're going to have to replace this guy' and a build towards that?

When I came in, I believed Steven had a lot to offer the team in terms of his performance. Working here, I see his great influence in the changing room with the other players and the great work he does throughout the football club. Of course, you always have in the back of your mind there is going to be a time he will move on and you're looking to bring through the next ones - that's something that has had to be looked at from a football perspective. It's neigh on impossible to find a direct replacement for someone of that stature and quality, but we have to continue with our work and continue to find the top players to come in and perform for the club.

Do you think there is one individual out there who could fill that void, or is it going to be a case of filling it with more than one?

It's not something that I've overly thought. Steven Gerrard is unique in his play and in his behaviour, how he has been as a football player. For me coming into here, finding out what he is like as a human being, he is a really unique character. You can't make the direct replacement. As we've seen over many years in football, there is always the opportunity there for the next one to come in. For us it'll always be about the team, but this is a football club that is renowned for having world-class players. It gives an opportunity for the young players to keep pushing on and there's no greater club in the world to be an icon at. This is an incredible football club and if you can perform consistently at a top level here, there is no greater place to be to be held in that esteem by the Liverpool supporters.

BR Interview re: Stevie leaving. Kinda side stepped the questions...

I think quite a few leaders will emerge over the coming weeks now that Stevies decision has been made public.  Sometimes having a Club legend as Captain can prevent others stepping up as they don't want to be seen as undermining the hierarchy, this isn't because they aren't confident enough but as a mark of respect which is a good sign of leadership.

I don't necessarily believe that age or seniority makes a better leader either, it's a quality that you either have or don't have but it usually shows at an early age rather than developing later in life.

Hendo is the kind of Captain who will relish the opportunity to lead his troops, he's a proud guy just like Stevie so he understands what an honour it is that he's our Captain.  I think he'll do great and I think he'll raise his game because of it. 

As for VC I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Studge.  He's a leader from the front, well liked by the squad and is great with the younger players.

Stop it now Debs, your talking far to much sense,

and we can't have that in a cesspit of a forum now can we. 


YNWA

Leaders of all leaders - what on earth are we going to do without characters like these?

The current bunch are a dearth of leadership for the first time in an age. Worrying indeed.

Just make the rest of the squad learn French.

Like Arsebal a few years ago when they weren't playing a single Englishman.

Well...appears it's only a matter of time before Lucas leaves so following on from Kuyt, Reina, Agger and now Stevie it's a massive problem for us. Hendo has a great attitude but is he a leader or a inspiration? Not sure but it's up to him and the likes of Lallana to step up.

Like Arsebal a few years ago when they weren't playing a single Englishman.

Damn it 7KK7 - name this unmarried Englishman don't skirt around the issue!

Wait, oh ah that's awkward.....as you were.

Well Stevie has been a fairly rubbish captain, ALTHOUGH AN OUTSTANDING PLAYER, so whoever we choose will probably be an improvement. I would like to see Brendan pick a new captain immediatly but he probably doesn't want to upset his landlord. I'd go for Henderson.

The fact is that we look a better team without Stevie despite all these fuckwit pundits kissing Stevie's arse at the moment calling him our current best midfielder, give me a break!!

Imagine what the difference a Sami (at his peak) would make with regards leadership, within this current squad?

So let's get him in, in a coaching role. deffo need it at the back anyway, and he would install a level of leadership in the dressing room. He is available at the mo !

Of the current squad - Hendo is the best placed. Think Sahko captained his club as a teenager / early 20's so potential VC

What is being overlooked to a degree is the lack of players - particularly local - who have come through the ranks.

Lets face it - Carra, Owen and Gerrard emerged FIFTEEN years ago - and there has been only odd decent premiership class (no one international or world class) in that time. That worries me greatly.

And before the warriors mention Sterling - we bought him from QPR .

Well Stevie has been a fairly rubbish captain

What you basing that on?

That he has captained the club for 11 years? That 5 different managers kept him as captain, that all those players who have played under him call him an inspiration?
Or just cause you don't see him shouting much at times?

Tis rare nowadays for local youths to develop into 1st team stars, well atleast at the big clubs. Clearly something changed over the years, for the worse.

Tis rare nowadays for local youths to develop into 1st team stars, well atleast at the big clubs. Clearly something changed over the years, for the worse.

Money and the influx of foreign players to the extent they are in numbers nowadays

Money and the influx of foreign players to the extent they are in numbers nowadays

Ah thats the reason alright, but a bit short sighted from the money counters. A young English lad brought through the youths to the 1st team, of any serious standard is sold at a heavy profit + an english tax.

Money and the influx of foreign players to the extent they are in numbers nowadays

I think you could add the demand for instant success now. Any lad who pays well in lower leagues or in youth teams is now expected to do the exact same in the senior team. What Sterling (most recently) has done is so rare in the game now. I don't think football fans as a whole have the patience for young players that they used to.

Ah thats the reason alright, but a bit short sighted from the money counters. A young English lad brought through the youths to the 1st team, of any serious standard is sold at a heavy profit + an english tax.

Managers get less time now as well and the lack of patience makes them think that they don't have time to blood kids and they need a quicker fix and a more established foreign player will do the job.

The more foreign coaches as well are more comfortable in bringing that market in

I think you could add the demand for instant success now. Any lad who pays well in lower leagues or in youth teams is now expected to do the exact same in the senior team. What Sterling (most recently) has done is so rare in the game now. I don't think football fans as a whole have the patience for young players that they used to.

Definitely mate

Managers get less time now as well and the lack of patience makes them think that they don't have time to blood kids and they need a quicker fix and a more established foreign player will do the job.

The more foreign coaches as well are more comfortable in bringing that market in

I think its a lot to do with the fact that Managers cant keep their jobs and each one keeps changing the youth systems when they come in.

Would I be correct in saying, Shelvey, Sterling, Suso and Ibe are all outputs from a very successful youth spell with Rodolfo Borrell at the helm? Always bugged me when he got "promoted"/pushed.

I think its a lot to do with the fact that Managers cant keep their jobs and each one keeps changing the youth systems when they come in.

Would I be correct in saying, Shelvey, Sterling, Suso and Ibe are all outputs from a very successful youth spell with Rodolfo Borrell at the helm? Always bugged me when he got "promoted"/pushed.

It takes a while to bare the fruits of a youth system and really a manager needs a fairly long time in the job to see the benefits.. The exception at times are the outstanding local talents who are so well known within the whole club set up that they come through regardless.

Those you mentioned all really are products of other clubs systems. Shelvey was an Arsenal product who was sold to Charlton before we brought him. Sterling was a QPR product.. Ibe had played first team at Wycombe..Suso from Cadiz I think. We rounded them but didn't develop them really

I loved Rodolfo's work... I think it's as simple as he was tapped up by Man City

Stevie.

Well Stevie has been a fairly rubbish captain, ALTHOUGH AN OUTSTANDING PLAYER, so whoever we choose will probably be an improvement. I would like to see Brendan pick a new captain immediatly but he probably doesn't want to upset his landlord. I'd go for Henderson.

The fact is that we look a better team without Stevie despite all these fuckwit pundits kissing Stevie's arse at the moment calling him our current best midfielder, give me a break!!

F**k me, Now Stevie has been a Rubbish Captain?? I've heard it all now!

It's worrying that we can't name any leaders in our team. Henderson seems to be the majority vote but I wouldn't class him as a leader personally.  I expect more from a captain than to just run around for 90minutes covering ground. I mean no disrespect to Jordan, but I couldn't take him serious if he was giving me a bollocking or trying to rally me up for a game. He is an average premiership midfielder who shys away at times and rarely leads by example himself. In an ideal world Jordan would be a squad player for us. He isn't good enough to play for a side with title and European ambition. But presumably Henderson will be named captain as he is currently vice to Steven...that concerns me. Who will be vice to Jordan too?

The only two candidates for captaincy for me are Lucas and Flanno. Both would put their bodies on the line and both are consistently good. Lucas is experienced and Flanno is local - they are both capable of motivating a team.

Neither are realistic options though, they don't play enough football for us.

The only other player I would consider is Sturridge. He is a world class striker at the end of the day and will lead by example using his quality - his work rate is under rated. I'm just not sure he is vocal enough.

No wonder our back four is in such a mess though when you can't pick a leader out of Mignolet, Johnson, Skrtel, Manquillo, Enrique, Moreno, Lovren & Sakho

Well Stevie has been a fairly rubbish captain, ALTHOUGH AN OUTSTANDING PLAYER, so whoever we choose will probably be an improvement. I would like to see Brendan pick a new captain immediatly but he probably doesn't want to upset his landlord. I'd go for Henderson.

The fact is that we look a better team without Stevie despite all these fuckwit pundits kissing Stevie's arse at the moment calling him our current best midfielder, give me a break!!

 

It's worrying that we can't name any leaders in our team. Henderson seems to be the majority vote but I wouldn't class him as a leader personally.  I expect more from a captain than to just run around for 90minutes covering ground. I mean no disrespect to Jordan, but I couldn't take him serious if he was giving me a bollocking or trying to rally me up for a game. He is an average premiership midfielder who shys away at times and rarely leads by example himself. In an ideal world Jordan would be a squad player for us. He isn't good enough to play for a side with title and European ambition. But presumably Henderson will be named captain as he is currently vice to Steven...that concerns me. Who will be vice to Jordan too?

The only two candidates for captaincy for me are Lucas and Flanno. Both would put their bodies on the line and both are consistently good. Lucas is experienced and Flanno is local - they are both capable of motivating a team.

Neither are realistic options though, they don't play enough football for us.

The only other player I would consider is Sturridge. He is a world class striker at the end of the day and will lead by example using his quality - his work rate is under rated. I'm just not sure he is vocal enough.

No wonder our back four is in such a mess though when you can't pick a leader out of Mignolet, Johnson, Skrtel, Manquillo, Enrique, Moreno, Lovren & Sakho

to be fair to hendo... he was the captain of the U21s for England so not only BR sees leadership qualities.

also, I feel he has massive respect for stevie.  so when SG is on the pitch, he lets SG take all the leadership responsibilities.  However, if you look at the games SG isn't on the pitch.. like that stretch of a few games last year, Hendo displayed quite abit of ability as a player and as a leader.

right now, as of today, I say we should give this lad a chance.  I think he can really be good for us.

to be fair to hendo... he was the captain of the U21s for England so not only BR sees leadership qualities.

also, I feel he has massive respect for stevie.  so when SG is on the pitch, he lets SG take all the leadership responsibilities.  However, if you look at the games SG isn't on the pitch.. like that stretch of a few games last year, Hendo displayed quite abit of ability as a player and as a leader.

right now, as of today, I say we should give this lad a chance.  I think he can really be good for us.

Nah. Not for me.

Compare him to previous players who have captained us and tell me again you think he would be a good captain for us. Henderson isn't fit to lace their boots in all honesty.

Henderson received many plaudits last season for the work he did that went unnoticed. The likes of Danny and Luis stepped up when needed, Stevie did, Raheem and Coutinho both did, Skrtel did at times and flanno went into every tackle that made the crowd roar.

What did Jordan do apart from cover Stevies ground? He was part of a great season last year and certainly played a part don't get me wrong, but half a dozen or so players stood out far more for me than Jordan did.

You can be a type of captain where you let your football do the talking. Messi could captain any team for example. Or you could be a carragher and a Flanno who gets stuck in and organises things. It's why Stevie was a great captain because he had everything.  Jordan has very little to offer us in my opinion being captain.

I also have higher ambition and don't believe he should be starting every game for us either. I've said many times before he reminds me of a james milner type of player. He is no world beater but will do a job for you. He would make a brilliant squad player.

Overall, I like Jordan, he seems an honest lad and does put a shift in when he wants too but shouldn't be captain of Liverpool FC.

Unfortunately for us, he seems the only candidate. 

Nah. Not for me.

Compare him to previous players who have captained us and tell me again you think he would be a good captain for us. Henderson isn't fit to lace their boots in all honesty.

Henderson received many plaudits last season for the work he did that went unnoticed. The likes of Danny and Luis stepped up when needed, Stevie did, Raheem and Coutinho both did, Skrtel did at times and flanno went into every tackle that made the crowd roar.

What did Jordan do apart from cover Stevies ground? He was part of a great season last year and certainly played a part don't get me wrong, but half a dozen or so players stood out far more for me than Jordan did.

You can be a type of captain where you let your football do the talking. Messi could captain any team for example. Or you could be a carragher and a Flanno who gets stuck in and organises things. It's why Stevie was a great captain because he had everything.  Jordan has very little to offer us in my opinion being captain.

I also have higher ambition and don't believe he should be starting every game for us either. I've said many times before he reminds me of a james milner type of player. He is no world beater but will do a job for you. He would make a brilliant squad player.

Overall, I like Jordan, he seems an honest lad and does put a shift in when he wants too but shouldn't be captain of Liverpool FC.

Unfortunately for us, he seems the only candidate.

I guess time will tell if he is good or not.  Like I said, BR is not the only professional manager to see Henderson's leadership abilities.   I personally believe hendo will blossom once SG is no longer with us.   He gets the opportunity to stake his claim.   

to question what he did apart from covering SG's ground is a bit harsh.

what is shocking for me is that say we move Hendo to captain.. I am not sure who can be VC? maybe lallana... but not sure

Going on tonight's display.... I fear for us. Not one of them had a bit of bottle to stand up to Wimbledon.

The more and more I think about it,  the more worried I become. I honestly think next season we will be an average team with little to no recognised quality.

Sturridge, Sterling and Coutinho aside the team is average at best and none of them or the rest are close to being the leader or talent Gerrard is now let alone what he was.

Carra suarez and now stevie is just too much to lose in two seasons.

I seriously think we are in bother.

Why are we so nervous and calamitice? Because the majority of our players are weak minded... We need to seriously address our lack of balls, quality and leadership..... fast

Well Stevie has been a fairly rubbish captain, ALTHOUGH AN OUTSTANDING PLAYER, so whoever we choose will probably be an improvement. I would like to see Brendan pick a new captain immediatly but he probably doesn't want to upset his landlord. I'd go for Henderson.

The fact is that we look a better team without Stevie despite all these fuckwit pundits kissing Stevie's arse at the moment calling him our current best midfielder, give me a break!!

Every now and then one comes along like this , is this the same man who led this club on a journey into Europe which quite possibly won't be equalled in our lifetime a club captain that you never hear bad mouthed   by team mates domestic or foreign a captain who has remained at the top despite turmoil fighting and various managers , give your head a wobble lad  and keep off the drugs .

Every now and then one comes along like this , is this the same man who led this club on a journey into Europe which quite possibly won't be equalled in our lifetime a club captain that you never hear bad mouthed   by team mates domestic or foreign a captain who has remained at the top despite turmoil fighting and various managers , give your head a wobble lad  and keep off the drugs .

Agree with everything you say mate, part from the keep off the drugs part  . Everyone always says that when someone talks sh*t (like this bloke clearly has been)and it bugs me because people dont talk sh*t when they are on the drugs, well I don't anyway. 

Was meant a bit tongue in cheek mate  no offenc  intended to anyone  .

Agree with everything you say mate, part from the keep off the drugs part  . Everyone always says that when someone talks sh*t (like this bloke clearly has been)and it bugs me because people dont talk sh*t when they are on the drugs, well I don't anyway. 

I grew up with a guy who used to drink the neck out of a bottle of cider and fill it with Benylin cough syrup (do you get that down under AR?) - used to say as well as giving him a nice vapour trail for the night it dealt with the hangover head on!

Sound logic till you found him upside down in a hedge sleeping 2 hours later.

What you basing that on?  That he has captained the club for 11 years? That 5 different managers kept him as captain, that all those players who have played under him call him an inspiration?  Or just cause you don't see him shouting much at times?

Absolutely no doubt that if Masch had been born in Liverpool he would have been captain over Stevie.

Absolutely no doubt that if Masch had been born in Liverpool he would have been captain over Stevie.

You talk utter tripe at times , go back slagging Borini it's the only thing you got spot on .

Absolutely no doubt that if Masch had been born in Liverpool he would have been captain over Stevie.

The fact that Masch was born in San Lorenzo, Argentina makes this point irrelevant and pretty pointless Fed.

You talk utter tripe at times , go back slagging Borini it's the only thing you got spot on .

Sorry but it's true.  Masch was much more of a leader on the pitch than Stevie ever dreamt of being.  If they were both Scousers then Masch clearly would have been the better captain.  Doesn't mean he was the better player, but Suarez was our best player and he wasn't captain either. 

So yes,  Masch would have been captain if he hadn't been from Argentina.

Absolutely no doubt that if Masch had been born in Liverpool he would have been captain over Stevie.

Where? In the Peoples Republic of Fed?

Baseless

I grew up with a guy who used to drink the neck out of a bottle of cider and fill it with Benylin cough syrup (do you get that down under AR?) - used to say as well as giving him a nice vapour trail for the night it dealt with the hangover head on!

Sound logic till you found him upside down in a hedge sleeping 2 hours later.

Don't know mate, only ever stuck to Mary Jane. 

Don't know mate, only ever stuck to Mary Jane. 

Nice girl, doesn't half like her grub though