All things considered, where should we be?

Before the season started I predicted 1st with the worst being 3rd place.

Boy was I optimistic.

I think we do have enough quality in the team to have finished in the top 4, particularly considering the start to the season that United had. I think BR failed to do the trick of getting the best out of the players he had at his disposal this term. No, he didn't have Suarez and Studge was injured for most of the season, but we still had two strikers (Balo and Lambert) who are capable of scoring 15+ goals a season  in the right setup and with the right service. Unfortunately, BR was unwilling to change his approach and instead tried to get our target strikers to play in a team that was set-up to play quick one-two's and create goals from slick passing moves and pace up front.

In my opinion, we don't have the quality to have been really title contenders, but we should still have finished in the top 4 and I see our inability to do so as a failure by our manager.

We are where we are because of how we have performed over the course of the Season. We have failed every single acid test, every single one. It all went wrong during the United game, we got bossed and showed no fight, no passion and no desire. After that game we have shown we have a weak mentality and other times have gone for us. Villa steamrollered us on Sunday and that is embarrassing, steamrollered by potential relegation fodder.

We can keep believing that FSG will get us what we need in the Summer window but they have proven time and time again that they are not prepared to pay the wages that winners require. There is also the worry of losing Sterling, Coutinho, Henderson and maybe Can.

I truly believe that Brendan needs another Season but unless he gets top quality players to add to our potential then i fear this is as far as he can take us. This is not a slight on Brendan by the way, it's just all he can do with the constraints in place. It's all well and good saying that FSG have spent money, which they actually have, it's how they have chosen to spend that money that has been the problem.

We have lost big players, they have to be replaced with big players. We can't keep diluting the Squad and expecting to see progression, it will never happen.

To replace Carra we needed a £30 million defender, to replace Suarez we needed a £50 million striker, to replace Gerrard we need a £40 million midfielder.

Instead that money has been spread out on 10-12 players instead of three. How can this be seen as improvement?

I've read the Tomkins article on where we should expect to be based on financial statistics, while it is a very good and balanced read it also seems like an admittance of acceptance. Do we accept we will never win the League again? I won't.

Anyone who thought that we would hit the heights of last season with so many new players is frankly living in a dream world.

It's been shown quite clearly in some excellent analysis by Tomkins that very few players have a big impact in their first season, and amongst the "big" stars the figure is still only 26% of big transfers that can be said to have hit the ground running, which pretty much negates the argument about spending on "proven" big names, like  Falcao and Di Maria.
In fact the hysteria from some when they went to utd well over the top.
http://tomkinstimes.com/2014/11/a-decade-of-big-club-transfer-spending/

Add to that the fact we were only just compliant with FFP, yet some still say that the owners didn't spend enough which is patently nonsensical.

There are problems with recruitment in my view, but I've seen dozens of posters, many of whom should know better repeatedly throw around the claim that player X is sh*te, that we over paid for player Y (which seems odd when they also say we never spend) or other bullshit.

I understand the need to vent that some have, but it's misplaced.

There are no quick fixes, throwing money at the problem won't help, not least because of FFP, slagging off BR won't help and slagging the players won't help.

Moores and Parry left us needing to make up nearly 20 years of commercial expansion, a new ground and needing to bring many aspects of the club up to date, not to mention the players we missed out on because Parry didn't think they were worth it (Ronaldo and Vidic to name just 2).
Then we had the h&g "era" which very nearly fu**ed us over.

It's not what people want to hear, but it takes time to fix these problems.
Even city with their billionaire oil owners took a few years to build a team, chelsea for all their money have had "droughts".

We are where we are because we deserve to be.
That's down to everyone at the club: manager, owners, committee, players.

The difference is that many of the players being slagged off will come good, and perhaps people should take a step back and look at what has happened since we last won the league before rushing to judge and condemn.

Swab all valid points mate.

I acually got bored couple of years ago reading tomkins, too busy with real life stuff to read them all. .

I think the big gripe is hwo we have failed to replace a top striker with another top striker, instead we bought a journeyman striker for £4mill and took a chance on a boy who can be good, but too often is very very poor for £16 mill.

Money down the drain, Im sure some would have preffered keeping money in pockets till January and give some youth a chance. Which tbf is what happened moving sterling up top. Balo & Lambo have hardly kicked a ball.

If we had forced borini out, we could have spend £35mill on a top striker, and then had origi coming thsi summer, and now yong yesil fit, our striking options woudl look better.

Swab all valid points mate.

I acually got bored couple of years ago reading tomkins, too busy with real life stuff to read them all. .

I think the big gripe is hwo we have failed to replace a top striker with another top striker, instead we bought a journeyman striker for £4mill and took a chance on a boy who can be good, but too often is very very poor for £16 mill.

Money down the drain, Im sure some would have preffered keeping money in pockets till January and give some youth a chance. Which tbf is what happened moving sterling up top. Balo & Lambo have hardly kicked a ball.

If we had forced borini out, we could have spend £35mill on a top striker, and then had origi coming thsi summer, and now yong yesil fit, our striking options woudl look better.

I keep asking people which striker we could have bought, but I never get a realistic answer.
People like to think we can just go out and bat our eyes at a player and they'll immediately sign for us, but sadly that's just not the case.
We got stuck, resorted to Balotelli and it hasn't worked out.
Well, neither has Falcao, and this place nearly went into meltdown when it came out utd were getting him on loan, and might I add for a combined fee (loan fee and wages) that is completely ridiculous.
Neither Bony nor Remy have set the world alight.
Sanchez didn't want to come here.

Which top strikers are left and why would they F**k off madrid or bayern etc etc to come here?

I agree with you mate, and said just as much plenty times on twitter etc.

But if we broke the bank for sanchez would he have came, or did our wage structure stop it?

Im not one of these folk who knows all the players all over the world, but there must have been better options than balo & Lambo. 

I keep asking people which striker we could have bought, but I never get a realistic answer.
People like to think we can just go out and bat our eyes at a player and they'll immediately sign for us, but sadly that's just not the case.
We got stuck, resorted to Balotelli and it hasn't worked out.

Enner Valencia was our replacement after Remy fell through, according to the man himself he was going to be a Liverpool player then heard nothing more from us. 

Strange that it coincided with the late Balotelli link and subsequent transfer and all the high fiving going on within the Boardroom about getting our "marquee" player and bragging how we'd sold of the letter "l" within hours of him signing   Perfect moneyball but F**k all use to Brendan or the team.

I agree with you mate, and said just as much plenty times on twitter etc.

But if we broke the bank for sanchez would he have came, or did our wage structure stop it?

Im not one of these folk who knows all the players all over the world, but there must have been better options than balo & Lambo.

We reportedly offered more wages than Arsenal, but who really knows?

Enner Valencia was our replacement after Remy fell through, according to the man himself he was going to be a Liverpool player then heard nothing more from us. 

Strange that it coincided with the late Balotelli link and subsequent transfer and all the high fiving going on within the Boardroom about getting our "marquee" player and bragging how we'd sold of the letter "l" within hours of him signing   Perfect moneyball but F**k all use to Brendan or the team.

The Balotelli signing smacked of desperation at the time, and still does plus Enner Valencia could hardly be described as a "top" striker.

I keep asking people which striker we could have bought, but I never get a realistic answer.
People like to think we can just go out and bat our eyes at a player and they'll immediately sign for us, but sadly that's just not the case.
We got stuck, resorted to Balotelli and it hasn't worked out.
Well, neither has Falcao, and this place nearly went into meltdown when it came out utd were getting him on loan, and might I add for a combined fee (loan fee and wages) that is completely ridiculous.
Neither Bony nor Remy have set the world alight.
Sanchez didn't want to come here.

Which top strikers are left and why would they f**k off madrid or bayern etc etc to come here?

Mate are you trying to say that if your job is scouting players that you can't come up with a few names that would fit us?

Torres/Suarez weren't stars when we signed them but they had bags of potential.

Are you saying that there isn't any strikers in world football that we could have signed last summer? I'm not asking you to name names and neither am I going to but are you going to say in the whole of the world game we give up after 4 strikers that were linked with other clubs that we didn't get and the only other player we turn up is Balotelli?

How can anyone's scouts be that poor.

I don't and never buy that there is t better out there.. There are thousands of footballers out there.. 
You name Sanchez, Remy,Bony and Falcao.. And we end up with Balotelli

I'm sorry mate but there are hundreds of other strikers around and my heads fu**ed if the people involved in this football club can't come up with more names than just those 5

I keep asking people which striker we could have bought, but I never get a realistic answer.
People like to think we can just go out and bat our eyes at a player and they'll immediately sign for us, but sadly that's just not the case.
We got stuck, resorted to Balotelli and it hasn't worked out.
Well, neither has Falcao, and this place nearly went into meltdown when it came out utd were getting him on loan, and might I add for a combined fee (loan fee and wages) that is completely ridiculous.
Neither Bony nor Remy have set the world alight.
Sanchez didn't want to come here.

Which top strikers are left and why would they f**k off madrid or bayern etc etc to come here?

You are starting to depress me now.

The Balotelli signing smacked of desperation at the time, and still does plus Enner Valencia could hardly be described as a "top" striker.

I didn't say he was but he was a better fit than Balotelli in how we play. 

So after losing out on our prime target of Sanchez, we move to Remy who failed a medical then we moved onto Valencia - at least there's some joined up thinking there. 

So which idiot on the tc overruled the "best player available to fit the managers plans" and replaced him with the "big name, high profile player to show intent but actually was totally useless to the managers plans". 

It stinks of the numbers men ruling the recruitment rather than the football men.

Mate are you trying to say that if your job is scouting players that you can't come up with a few names that would fit us?

Torres/Suarez weren't stars when we signed them but they had bags of potential.

Are you saying that there isn't any strikers in world football that we could have signed last summer? I'm not asking you to name names and neither am I going to but are you going to say in the whole of the world game we give up after 4 strikers that were linked with other clubs that we didn't get and the only other player we turn up is Balotelli?

How can anyone's scouts be that poor.

I don't and never buy that there is t better out there.. There are thousands of footballers out there.. 
You name Sanchez, Remy,Bony and Falcao.. And we end up with Balotelli

I'm sorry mate but there are hundreds of other strikers around and my heads fu**ed if the people involved in this football club can't come up with more names than just those 5

No, I'm saying that the top names people kept throwing out were unrealistic.
If we'd bought an unknown who didn't hit the ground running (and few do), the hysteria would have been the same as we saw last summer. The whole Origi fallout was bad enough.
People seem to think it's just a case of us throwing money around, but that's just not true.

Torres was hardly an unknown, but we were the only ones who were prepared to take a chance on him, and I suspect that if Rafa hadn't been here, he wouldn't have been the success he was.
Suarez was also hardly an unknown, he was an established international renowned as a F***ing headcase. Again, we took a chance on him that others weren't prepared to and he rewarded us with more vile behaviour and 1 summer of complete disrespect, before biting someone else at a WC to get his dream move to Barca.

So, we gambled on those 2.
Just like we gambled on Balotelli.
The only difference is that 2 worked out and one didn't.

No, I'm saying that the top names people kept throwing out were unrealistic.
If we'd bought an unknown who didn't hit the ground running (and few do), the hysteria would have been the same as we saw last summer. The whole Origi fallout was bad enough.
People seem to think it's just a case of us throwing money around, but that's just not true.

Torres was hardly an unknown, but we were the only ones who were prepared to take a chance on him, and I suspect that if Rafa hadn't been here, he wouldn't have been the success he was.
Suarez was also hardly an unknown, he was an established international renowned as a f**king headcase. Again, we took a chance on him that others weren't prepared to and he rewarded us with more vile behaviour and 1 summer of complete disrespect, before biting someone else at a WC to get his dream move to Barca.

So, we gambled on those 2.
Just like we gambled on Balotelli.
The only difference is that 2 worked out and one didn't.

Gambles for the sake of gambles don't always work out.. Signing people simply on value doesn't either

The lack of joined up thinking on what would work best against what offers best value is frankly ridiculous

Mate are you trying to say that if your job is scouting players that you can't come up with a few names that would fit us?

Torres/Suarez weren't stars when we signed them but they had bags of potential.

Are you saying that there isn't any strikers in world football that we could have signed last summer? I'm not asking you to name names and neither am I going to but are you going to say in the whole of the world game we give up after 4 strikers that were linked with other clubs that we didn't get and the only other player we turn up is Balotelli?

How can anyone's scouts be that poor.

I don't and never buy that there is t better out there.. There are thousands of footballers out there.. 
You name Sanchez, Remy,Bony and Falcao.. And we end up with Balotelli

I'm sorry mate but there are hundreds of other strikers around and my heads fu**ed if the people involved in this football club can't come up with more names than just those 5

Indeed.

The fact that we seemed all our of ideas once the Sanchez deal fell through says it all.

Add this to the probability we knew Luis was leaving a full year before he did and its a shocking indictment of all involved.

I keep asking people which striker we could have bought, but I never get a realistic answer.
People like to think we can just go out and bat our eyes at a player and they'll immediately sign for us, but sadly that's just not the case.
We got stuck, resorted to Balotelli and it hasn't worked out.
Well, neither has Falcao, and this place nearly went into meltdown when it came out utd were getting him on loan, and might I add for a combined fee (loan fee and wages) that is completely ridiculous.
Neither Bony nor Remy have set the world alight.
Sanchez didn't want to come here.

I keep asking people which striker we could have bought, but I never get a realistic answer.
People like to think we can just go out and bat our eyes at a player and they'll immediately sign for us, but sadly that's just not the case.
We got stuck, resorted to Balotelli and it hasn't worked out.
Well, neither has Falcao, and this place nearly went into meltdown when it came out utd were getting him on loan, and might I add for a combined fee (loan fee and wages) that is completely ridiculous.
Neither Bony nor Remy have set the world alight.
Sanchez didn't want to come here.

Which top strikers are left and why would they F**k off madrid or bayern etc etc to come here?

I agree with quite a lot of what you say but we held the ace card last summer in Luis we just rolled over as usual , I think im right in saying somebody asked Thommo on tv the same question his answer was lfc should have played hard ball and told Barca no Sanches no deal end of story  if he still didnt want to come tough sh*t we keep Luis at least until we find a suitable replacement , and before anyone says he was banned yes he was , but he would have done more damage in six months on his fckin own than the rubbish we pulled in in desperation  , it stinks mate and the owners are ultimately culpable because they let it happen  thats a big part of the reason we are where we are .

Dont know how that post ended up like that  my phone may have something to do with it .

Dont know how that post ended up like that  my phone may have something to do with it .

 

I got the gist if it and actually, I agree up to a point.
One of the things I don't like about modern football is players holding clubs to ransom.
However, we would have been asking Barca to hold Sanchez to ransom, and I don't much like that either.

I got the gist if it and actually, I agree up to a point.
One of the things I don't like about modern football is players holding clubs to ransom.
However, we would have been asking Barca to hold Sanchez to ransom, and I don't much like that either.

Only difference mate I love this club couldnt give too fvks for Barca and we held the ace .

Anyone who thought that we would hit the heights of last season with so many new players is frankly living in a dream world.

It's been shown quite clearly in some excellent analysis by Tomkins that very few players have a big impact in their first season, and amongst the "big" stars the figure is still only 26% of big transfers that can be said to have hit the ground running, which pretty much negates the argument about spending on "proven" big names, like  Falcao and Di Maria.
In fact the hysteria from some when they went to utd well over the top.
http://tomkinstimes.com/2014/11/a-decade-of-big-club-transfer-spending/

Add to that the fact we were only just compliant with FFP, yet some still say that the owners didn't spend enough which is patently nonsensical.

There are problems with recruitment in my view, but I've seen dozens of posters, many of whom should know better repeatedly throw around the claim that player X is sh*te, that we over paid for player Y (which seems odd when they also say we never spend) or other bullshit.

I understand the need to vent that some have, but it's misplaced.

There are no quick fixes, throwing money at the problem won't help, not least because of FFP, slagging off BR won't help and slagging the players won't help.

Moores and Parry left us needing to make up nearly 20 years of commercial expansion, a new ground and needing to bring many aspects of the club up to date, not to mention the players we missed out on because Parry didn't think they were worth it (Ronaldo and Vidic to name just 2).
Then we had the h&g "era" which very nearly fu**ed us over.

It's not what people want to hear, but it takes time to fix these problems.
Even city with their billionaire oil owners took a few years to build a team, chelsea for all their money have had "droughts".

We are where we are because we deserve to be.
That's down to everyone at the club: manager, owners, committee, players.

The difference is that many of the players being slagged off will come good, and perhaps people should take a step back and look at what has happened since we last won the league before rushing to judge and condemn.

With all due respect Swab, nobody is saying that FSG don't spend money, the figures back that up.

It is how the money has been spent that supporters have taken issue with. Dilution will nearly always stifle progression.

I have to agree with andy that we never utilised the Suarez deal to our benefit. We held the power in that deal and we just let ourselves get done over.

With all due respect Swab, nobody is saying that FSG don't spend money, the figures back that up.

It is how the money has been spent that supporters have taken issue with. Dilution will nearly always stifle progression.

I have to agree with andy that we never utilised the Suarez deal to our benefit. We held the power in that deal and we just let ourselves get done over.

Plenty are saying that though mate, along with spending it on the wrong players, something I also don't really believe.

It was pretty simple for me before the start of this season.
We weren't going to hit the heights of last year, and I reckoned 4th place would be a good target for this year.
You simply can't bring that many new players into a squad and think that they will all hit the ground running.

I think the Suarez money could have been used better as well, but I've yet to see anyone put up the name of a player we could realistically have bought that would have improved our chances.
I've asked and I've asked but no-one has the answer, so maybe there isn't one.
If we'd bought on potential there would have been ructions.
It seems that people think we can just click our fingers and get who we want, and I'd love for that to be true but the sad fact is that it's not.

In short, there's lots of people pointing the finger and banging on about what is wrong, but very, very few posts about how to fix our problems.
That's how I look at things. I already know what's wrong, I want to know how it gets fixed instead of all the hysterical nonsense seen in here over the past couple of days.

I already know what's wrong, I want to know how it gets fixed instead of all the hysterical nonsense seen in here over the past couple of days.

I may have missed it mate but what is your thoughts on what is wrong?