Several things wrong at our club and it starts at the top.

I wasn't talking about how successful the strategy has been.

I was disputing your "fact" that the manager can't sign older player sthat he likes because of the strategy.

If so, the signings of players like the examples I mentioned are either a figment of our imaginations or your "fact" is bollocks.

Just to repeat again, since you missed it the first time, I'm not commenting on how successful the strategy has been.

OK fair enough. But my pt is, no one gives a sh*t if we couldn't sign Lambert and Toure.
The problem is that the types of player who defined us, who turned us from a parochial into a giant club.. we couldn't sign. Because they were "too expensive for their age" or just "too expensive".

I mean you must agree, being told that Dalglish would be too old (bringing 1977 up to date) shows how fu**ed up their principles are.

Do you?

Crap footballers are bought cheaply to turn a profit?

So Markovic was cheap? Moreno? Borini? Lovren? Balotelli?

And look at that amazing profit we made on them all!!!

I don't think you understand much

Well yes, check out Tompkins post on his blog about transfer fee inflation.
Players are going for 80m. David Luis was FIFTY M!
Balotelli, Borini are cheap as F**k now. And yes, crap as F**k. But prob not that crap "value" wise.
They just aren't up to the std of what was a mega club, til Shamway arrived.

Markovich and Moreno are VERY inexperienced. But to suggest 20 odd m 19, 20 yr olds can replace Suarez etc is nothing but obscene, Fenway sptting in the fans faces again.

Whilst I see the reasoning in Red's argument about having a flexible transfer rules, I'm with Hollywood & Pastor on this.

Question to all of you, let's say hypothetically a new manager comes in and works under those guidelines and does a better job in recruiting players and in turn we do better in the league as a result, would you be happy with the way things are going or not?

If a manager fails to do his job through certain guidelines given to him, it doesn't mean the principle is flawed, it means the manager is not capable of doing his job properly. We haven't been recruiting well since 2008.

Whilst I see the reasoning in Red's argument about having a flexible transfer rules, I'm with Hollywood & Pastor on this.

Question to all of you, let's say hypothetically a new manager comes in and works under those guidelines and does a better job in recruiting players and in turn we do better in the league as a result, would you be happy with the way things are going or not?

To be honest mate I think any manager coming in working under the rigidity of the transfer strategy we are working would be destined to fail, we may see the initial up turn in performances but in my opinion we'd sink back to the level of where we are at.

Where are the proven winners in our squad ?

Toure at the end of his career 4th choice center back ?

Milner, who lets be honest is a solid player but nothing spectacular who was basically a squad player at Man City.

I look at our squad whilst its full of potential, its lacking in quality, because quality costs money both in terms of transfer fee and wages.

To be honest mate I think any manager coming in working under the rigidity of the transfer strategy we are working would be destined to fail, we may see the initial up turn in performances but in my opinion we'd sink back to the level of where we are at.

Where are the proven winners in our squad ?

Toure at the end of his career 4th choice center back ?

Milner, who lets be honest is a solid player but nothing spectacular who was basically a squad player at Man City.

I look at our squad whilst its full of potential, its lacking in quality, because quality costs money both in terms of transfer fee and wages.

I agree that it lacks quality mate, this I have no doubts about and if we had better players we would do better.

However, Can we judge that it would destine to fail when another manager hasn't tried it yet? Dalglish didn't have the time, he was sacked after a season and a half, so Rodgers so far has failed with this sort of strategy and I'm willing to see how the new manager (if we get one) will fair before I can form a conclusion, maybe he will recruit better and we will see better players.

Players like Begovic, Song & Cabaye fit perfectly with out strategy (inexpensive and really good players), yet we didn't even look at them.

Are we not trying to buy the next Luis Suarez or Messi or Ronaldo whilst they are young and inexperienced. If Markovich was to reach his full potential in 3 or 4 years he would be at the peak of his value  and be worth £50mil plus. Now if that is the programme it has merit but not when you start playing them as wingbacks or totally out of position. Buy them young but play them or change the stratergy.We are doing the same with IBE he is a winger his potential will be reached by being an attack minded player not confusing him into defending as a WB.

The point that is totally missing on you is, if the current transfer policy and wage structure wasn't being dictated by John Henry and FSG then perhaps the targets we aquired this summer wouldn't have been our targets as there would have been a different criteria/parameters to work with.

I agree to a point Daz but I have a feeling that the manager we have is more content than some iyehr coaches would be with the type of player we go for.

 I'm not saying Brendan doesn't want top quality players but I'm not sure he would push the owners as much as some other manager would.

Manager and owners fit together.

To be honest mate I think any manager coming in working under the rigidity of the transfer strategy we are working would be destined to fail, we may see the initial up turn in performances but in my opinion we'd sink back to the level of where we are at.

Where are the proven winners in our squad ?

I look at our squad whilst its full of potential, its lacking in quality, because quality costs money both in terms of transfer fee and wages.

Proven winners? Balotelli,Toure and Milner are all recent "proven winners" of our own league - it doesn't guarantee anything.

Your answer to "buy quality" doesn't work when the four teams above you can outspend you.

What is the point of City buying Aguero, United buying the 2nd choice version of Aguero, Chelsea buying the 3rd choice version of Aguero, Arsenal buying 4th choice version of Aguero and us being left with the 5th on the list? How will that enable us to beat City?

We need to find a way of improving the hit-rate of our transfers and using the money more efficiently.

Take the case of Borini. He has flopped but, of the 12million we spent, Sunderland have paid us 8 million rising to 10million. Which means it hasn't cost us that much and leaves the manager with more to spend in the next window.

With your method, if we had bought a different player - older, say, and on high wages, we wouldn't be able to move him on and therefore a lot more money would be flushed down the pan which would hamper our other transfer windows.

So the problem is less to do with the "restrictions" and more to do with picking the right player sin the first place.

I agree to a point Daz but I have a feeling that the manager we have is more content than some iyehr coaches would be with the type of player we go for.

 I'm not saying Brendan doesn't want top quality players but I'm not sure he would push the owners as much as some other manager would.

Manager and owners fit together.

I'm not saying Rodgers isn't content mate, he's complicit by agreeing to work under such circumstances.

Doesn't mean we have to be content, are we really so down trodden that were eager to accept such lowering of expectations from FSG ?

I'm not, not long before they took over the club, we had some genuinely world class players and were ranked number 1 in Europe, we look further away from that now than before FSG implemented their transfer strategy and wage restrictions on the club and that is unacceptable regardless of who is manager.

So the problem is less to do with the "restrictions" and more to do with picking the right player sin the first place.

Wrong, proven quality costs money in terms of wages and transfer fee's so the 'Restrictions' that are in place do affect the type of player we go after.

Proven quality doesn't always work, see Torres, Di Maria etc but they to tend to have a higher success rate than gambling on potential, see the academy's all around the world that release players who it was believed to have had 'Potential' every year, the numbers are staggering.

You're right in saying we need to be more efficient with our money and have a higher success rate, the problem with that is when you 'Restrict' yourself through a certain set of parameters (Wages/Age) you considerably lower the pool of talent to choose from that would improve the club and thus the ability to have a higher success rate.

Wrong, proven quality costs money in terms of wages and transfer fee's so the 'Restrictions' that are in place do affect the type of player we go after.

Proven quality doesn't always work, see Torres, Di Maria etc but they to tend to have a higher success rate than gambling on potential, see the academy's all around the world that release players who it was believed to have had 'Potential' every year, the numbers are staggering.

You're right in saying we need to be more efficient with our money and have a higher success rate, the problem with that is when you 'Restrict' yourself through a certain set of parameters (Wages/Age) you considerably lower the pool of talent to choose from that would improve the club and thus the ability to have a higher success rate.

So, according to your point of view, all a club like Southampton have to do to win the league is to buy in "proven quality" without "restrictions", correct?

So, according to your point of view, all a club like Southampton have to do to win the league is to buy in "proven quality" without "restrictions", correct?

Isn't that What Chelsea and City did ?

Game, Set and Match, thank you for playing.

Isn't that What Chelsea and City did ?

Game, Set and Match, thank you for playing.

You didn't answer the question.

You didn't answer the question.

I'm sure I did, if Southampton had the finances to buy proven quality players with no restrictions ala Chelsea and City, yes I believe they could win the league.

The same as I believe if we buy proven quality players without the restrictions, we'd also have a great chance to win the league, now I'm not saying we have the Finances to go toe to toe with City, Arsenal, Chelsea and United, but WE DO HAVE THE FINANCES TO BUY PROVEN QUALITY PLAYERS, especially when we sell the likes of Suarez for £75m and Sterling for £49m.

Not that long ago with a world class manager and some proven quality world class players, we were ranked number 1 in europe.

I'm sure I did, if Southampton had the finances to buy proven quality players with no restrictions ala Chelsea and City, yes I believe they could win the league.

The same as I believe if we buy proven quality players without the restrictions, we'd also have a great chance to win the league, now I'm not saying we have the Finances to go toe to toe with City, Arsenal, Chelsea and United, but WE DO HAVE THE FINANCES TO BUY PROVEN QUALITY PLAYERS, especially when we sell the likes of Suarez for £75m and Sterling for £49m.

But Southampton DON'T have the money to do that and neither do we.


The point is that if Chelsea and City are "buying proven quality without restriction" and we are "buying proven quality without restriction" Chelsea and City will ALWAYS win no matter how many "quality" players we have bought because they have more money and can therefore always buy more and better players than we can.

By your own admission, we do not have the finances to go toe-to-toe with them therefore trying to do exactly that is completely pointless.

If we spent our money on buying two world-class players, City would buy six and win the league. if we bought four world class players, they would buy eight and win the league.

Maybe, if we only had to beat City, the planets would align through tactics and injuries and we might occasionally win however we have to also hope the other three teams go through a dip at exactly the same time as City - in other words - your idea is completely useless for any team that is not financially dominant which is why it workd for City and Chelsea but not us or Southampton.

Thanks for playing. 

But Southampton DON'T have the money to do that and neither do we.


The point is that if Chelsea and City are "buying proven quality without restriction" and we are "buying proven quality without restriction" Chelsea and City will ALWAYS win no matter how many "quality" players we have bought because they have more money and can therefore always buy more and better players than we can.

Bollocks a squad can only be so big, Chelsea City Arsenal and United can't buy all the quality, there's Quality players out there, the reason we don't sign them is because they don't fall in line with FSG's wage structure or transfer strategy or a combination of both.

As I already stated we can Afford Quality Players, FSG just don't want to, simple and its seriously hampering the club and taking the piss out of the fans.

Bollocks a squad can only be so big, Chelsea City Arsenal and United can't buy all the quality, there's Quality players out there, the reason we don't sign them is because they don't fall in line with FSG's wage structure or transfer strategy or a combination of both.

As I already stated we can Afford Quality Players, FSG just don't want to, simple and its seriously hampering the club and taking the piss out of the fans.

Southampton can afford quality players too - the question is whether they can afford more than the likes of City, Chelsea, United etc.

The answer is no.

Which is why they can't win the league using your strategy and neither can we.

Which is why they can't win the league using your strategy and neither can we.

Newsflash...

Were doing a F***ing fantastic job of winning the league this way.

The more quality we've lost, Suarez, Sterling, Gerrard, Agger the worse we look.

I'm sure we were doing ok recruiting Quality Players under Rafa and almost won the league and were competing in Europe regularly.

Anyway, F**k it I'm done arguing with you over this, if you want to support the owners small time mentality, crack on...

P.S drawing comparisons between us and Southampton are irrelevant, we're a much bigger club than them both financially and in global support.

Newsflash...

Were doing a f**king fantastic job of winning the league this way.

The more quality we've lost, Suarez, Sterling, Gerrard, Agger the worse we look.

I'm sure we were doing ok recruiting Quality Players under Rafa and almost won the league and were competing in Europe regularly.

Anyway, f**k it I'm done arguing with you over this, if you want to support the owners small time mentality, crack on...

Newsflash - we "almost won the league" this way too.


Of the players you mentioned Suarez - moneyball signing due to his ban for biting, Sterling £5m youth prospect, Gerrard - academy development, Agger £5m promising young defender we got because we missed out on Vidic.

Non of those examples support your argument of having to buy in established top-quality/world class players without restrictions on wages however ALL of them are certainly quality players.

That's the point I was making - it's a case of picking the right players in the first place not the system which is the issue.

P.S drawing comparisons between us and Southampton are irrelevant, we're a much bigger club than them both financially and in global support.

Global support is irrelevant in terms of winning the league. Man United were the biggest global club in the league in the 26 years they didn't win it.

In terms of "bigger clubs financially", man united, City, Chelsea and Arsenal all have bigger buying power than us therefore the example of Southampton is entirely relevant - just as they can't outspend us, we can't outspend the four clubs mentioned.

Of course we can spend money on quality players FFS we have the 7th most expensive assembled squad in Europe. We spent more than Arsenal and Chelsea this year. £300M during the tenure of Rodgers.
We have just chosen the wrong players, Rodgers identifies the players he wants and definetely got this year, so if you want to blame anyone there is your target.

Quality keeps you competitive.

Reina <  Mignolet
Arbeloa < Clyne
Carragher <Skrtle
Agger < Lovren
Aurelio < Gomez
Alonso < Henderson
Mascherano < Allen
Riera  > Lallana
Gerrard < Coutinho
Kuyt < Ibe
Torres < Benteke

Which again disproves your point - Brendan has received more backing from the owners than Rafa did yet Rafa's team was better despite the "restrictions".

As HScred1 points out, it's a problem of player selection.

Also your arrow heads are the wrong way round.

Newsflash - we "almost won the league" this way too.

And that crumbled the moment we sold one of the top 3 players in world football and spread the money around the squad buying potential, taking calculated gambles and not replacing Quality with Quality, same happened with Alonso.