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      Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager

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      KopiteLuke
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #14789: Nov 22, 2017 11:44:25 am
      You could have argued the Can sub could have came well before 3-2 and the Moreno one as well

      Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

      In the first half Moreno played well besides the challenge which I thought shouldn't have been a yellow, but admittedly was a little rash. Subbing him based on that wouldn't have made any sense.

      As for subbing him after the first goal, that again would have been a rather odd call. You give a player the chance to react, unfortunately Alby went the wrong way and the boss intervened but to do on the first mistake I think is asking for too much, or actually too little faith in his players. Imagine a game where you sub players on their first mistake, you'd be out of subs in the first 15 minutes.

      Similarly with the Can sub, it was made to steady the ship and clearly did so. We had a good 4 or 5 top chances to finish the game off after that, think the Milner pass to AoC, Mane blazing over when clean through, Can just getting his pass blocked to an unmarked player in the 6 yard box and Salah for some reason taking a touch when on the edge of the box just the keeper to beat. All 4 were big opportunities but instead we give away the sucker punch and every one is consumed by it. It was awful defending for that corner but I think there was a sense of typical Liverpool written about it and we have to do it the harder way by getting a result at home in the final game, which I believe we will.
      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #14790: Nov 22, 2017 11:51:53 am
      Coutinho wanted f**king for that ball back to Moreno that led to the second, yeah Moreno was definitely at blame for the first, but Phil needs to share his part of the blame for that second goal.

      Thought that too. But Coutinho isnt as easy to blame for the majority.
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #14791: Nov 22, 2017 12:25:59 pm
      These damning statistics go to the very heart of our inability to control games:

      Liverpool vs the better sides faced in 17-18 (PL top 8 plus Spartak and Seville)

      p 9 w 1 d 6 l 2. 14 scored, 19 conceded.

      4 goals lost in stoppage time at end of a half.


      Source is Johnathon Northcroft.

      bazspeedman
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #14792: Nov 22, 2017 12:49:37 pm
      These damning statistics go to the very heart of our inability to control games:

      Liverpool vs the better sides faced in 17-18 (PL top 8 plus Spartak and Seville)

      p 9 w 1 d 6 l 2. 14 scored, 19 conceded.

      4 goals lost in stoppage time at end of a half.


      Source is Johnathon Northcroft.



      We need better quality central midfielders to control games who can retain possession and stay calm under pressure due to confidence in their ability.
      Livershrew
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #14793: Nov 22, 2017 12:57:16 pm
      bit of a concern that we had absolutely no idea what to do in that 2nd half? i mean we were getting absolutely battered. and couldnt do a thing ?   in game reactions seem non existent.

      it really shouldnt be the case, that from 3-0 up, to 3-1, and all i can see happening is the opposition getting level at least.
      see bournemouth ffs. happens too often.
      Scottbot
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #14794: Nov 22, 2017 12:58:44 pm
      These damning statistics go to the very heart of our inability to control games:

      Liverpool vs the better sides faced in 17-18 (PL top 8 plus Spartak and Seville)

      p 9 w 1 d 6 l 2. 14 scored, 19 conceded.

      4 goals lost in stoppage time at end of a half.


      Source is Johnathon Northcroft.



      This season seems to be the opposite of last season when we beat most of the top sides and struggled to beat the lesser teams. that'll be put to the test come this weekend with Chelsea coming to town.
      bazspeedman
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #14795: Nov 22, 2017 01:01:22 pm
      bit of a concern that we had absolutely no idea what to do in that 2nd half? i mean we were getting absolutely battered. and couldnt do a thing ?   in game reactions seem non existent.

      it really shouldnt be the case, that from 3-0 up, to 3-1, and all i can see happening is the opposition getting level at least.
      see bournemouth ffs. happens too often.

      It's a mentality issue due to lack of strong leadership.
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #14796: Nov 22, 2017 01:21:53 pm
      It's a mentality issue due to lack of strong leadership.

      It's due to both. We need leadership in the team but we also need more experience and more quality. Replace the spine and get some leaders in there while we're at it.
      Livershrew
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #14797: Nov 22, 2017 01:25:27 pm
      It's due to both. We need leadership in the team but we also need more experience and more quality. Replace the spine and get some leaders in there while we're at it.

      exactly. so how the hell can klopp not see this? when every single fan can.
      interesting listening to honigstein the other day. he thinks itll be 3 more years before hes got the sort of squad he wants. which seems a bit mad. problem is, nobody has any patience anymore.
      Scotia
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #14798: Nov 22, 2017 01:28:17 pm
      exactly. so how the hell can klopp not see this? when every single fan can.
      interesting listening to honigstein the other day. he thinks itll be 3 more years before hes got the sort of squad he wants. which seems a bit mad. problem is, nobody has any patience anymore.

      Hyperbole much? Nobody?

      Only the knee-jerky brain-dead or agenda merchants have run out of patience.

      Life must be a f***in’ trial for them mind.

      « Last Edit: Nov 22, 2017 01:36:03 pm by Scotia »
      Livershrew
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #14799: Nov 22, 2017 01:37:16 pm
      Hyperbole much? Nobody?

      Only the knee-jerky brain-dead or agenda merchants have run out of patience.

      Life must be a f***in’ trial for them mind.



      have you been in anfield this season? our crowd is horrific.
      Scotia
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #14800: Nov 22, 2017 01:41:05 pm
      have you been in anfield this season? our crowd is horrific.

      No I haven’t - which is unusual- but my point stands.

      chats
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #14801: Nov 22, 2017 01:41:48 pm

      Free kick, penalty, Corner. The basics let us down again even though we were overwhelmed in the second half.

      So sh*te when you sum it up like that. We were totally outplayed in the second half but you’ve still got to make your opponents earn their goals.

      This Liverpool side under Klopp simply don’t do that.

      Scottbot
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #14802: Nov 22, 2017 01:52:38 pm
      For me our defensive struggles are about tactics and shape. Less so about mentality and leadership. We're too gung-ho, sometimes we look sublime and like one of the most dangerous outfits in Europe and at others (like the 2nd half last night) we look hopeless defensively. It's easy to pick out a Hendo or a Moreno or a Lovren and point the finger. No doubt we need to upgrade a couple of players but the system we play would make the best defenders in the world look shaky.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #14803: Nov 22, 2017 01:59:41 pm
      For me our defensive struggles are about tactics and shape. Less so about mentality and leadership. We're too gung-ho, sometimes we look sublime and like one of the most dangerous outfits in Europe and at others (like the 2nd half last night) we look hopeless defensively. It's easy to pick out a Hendo or a Moreno or a Lovren and point the finger. No doubt we need to upgrade a couple of players but the system we play would make the best defenders in the world look shaky.

      Generally that's true but there was nothing gung ho about that second half yesterday, we couldn't get out of our half because our midfielders were treating the ball like a hot potato.

      As others have mentioned we sh*t our pants when they came hard and aggressive. That's a clear sign of poor mentality nothing to do with the system last night.
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #14804: Nov 22, 2017 02:41:29 pm
      Generally that's true but there was nothing gung ho about that second half yesterday, we couldn't get out of our half because our midfielders were treating the ball like a hot potato.

      As others have mentioned we sh*t our pants when they came hard and aggressive. That's a clear sign of poor mentality nothing to do with the system last night.

      Agreed. The system doesn't help but it can hardly be blamed for last night's second half performance. That's 100% on the players themselves. But that leads into a wider concern with Klopp. It's getting to a point now that his desire for certain player's personal development is starting to hinder the team's progress. Development has its place but this isn't Germany where you have Winter breaks, one domestic Cup and four less league games per season than you do here, there's only so much time available to devote to development and some of these players need more time than can be afforded.

      No more excuses must be given by Klopp, no more 'name me five' sound bites, his faith in many of these players is undermining his position and things need to change. Just like he does with our style of play, Klopp needs to find a balance between development and transfers and stop being so transfer adverse.

      It's not just him though, the club needs to get its act together on the quality of what we bring in. Of the sixteen players we've brought in since Klopp was manager, two are youth level, one has never kicked a ball, two the jury is still out on and only two have been a success. The general rule of thumb is one in two players bought will be a success. Assuming the jury comes out in favour of the two, we're sitting on a success ratio of one in four players, double the national average. That really isn't good enough for a club of our stature and ambitions and until we get that right, it doesn't matter who the manager is or what his style of play looks like, we're never going to be a success on the field.
      Scottbot
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #14805: Nov 22, 2017 03:01:06 pm
      Agreed. The system doesn't help but it can hardly be blamed for last night's second half performance. That's 100% on the players themselves. But that leads into a wider concern with Klopp. It's getting to a point now that his desire for certain player's personal development is starting to hinder the team's progress. Development has its place but this isn't Germany where you have Winter breaks, one domestic Cup and four less league games per season than you do here, there's only so much time available to devote to development and some of these players need more time than can be afforded.

      When I say system, it's not just about last night. Our players play in a very expansive system. It required that:
      - Full-backs to get very high up the pitch
      - The two wide forwards tuck in and play like auxillary strikers
      - The system does not employ an out an out defensive midfielder
      - Players spend hours practising and then executing pressing and counter-pressing

      It's not in Jürgen's make-up to ask the players to control a game without the ball, he said exactly that last night with his comments about 'needing to control the game with the ball in the 2nd half' BUT you can't always do that in football. Sometimes you have to drop right off, deny space, play the spoiler, sit your back four on the keepers toes, and try to screen everything in front of them. Our players don't know how to do it. If you put the hours in on the training pitch you can execute the gameplan on gameday as and when the situation requires but the players need the repetition and practice at Melwood to give them the confidence to play that way. Yes there's an element of mentality and leadership but tbh it's the first thing that so many posters reach for after a loss but you can't measure it, Hendo gets ripped for not having leadership qualities, I mean what does that actually mean? I see him try his hardest, I see him point and shout and cajole other players. Truth be told he simply isn't quite good enough and you are right about Klopp wanting to develop players and see what he can do on the training pitch first before he dips into the transfer market. Fingers crossed he may have seen the light with a few of our lads and will be pushing for a couple of new players in January and a few more in the summer.

      Scottbot
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #14806: Nov 22, 2017 03:08:33 pm
      Also, despite last night I feel like we're on a good little run at the moment. We'll beat Spartak comfortably at Anfield to qualify and our league form has improved with three wins on the bounce. Big test at the weekend but our record at Anfield has been excellent this season and the strength of our team (scoring lots of goals) seems to have been rediscovered after a shaky period. And also, whilst Jürgen might be guilty of sticking with some of these players for too long he has also brought in arguably the best signing of the past two summers with Mane and Salah respectively. I would argue Kante was the only purchase better than Mane last season and would be put Salah at the top of the list for this year (marginally ahead of Matic).

      I actually fancy us to beat Chelsea at the weekend even though they've only got the mighty Carrier Bag tonight so will be rested.
      Tadders
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #14807: Nov 22, 2017 05:58:02 pm

      If every fan can see we will never achieve anything at all - why would a top top player come & play for us

      Its about trophies for the top players like coutinho Suarez - we dont have home grown talent any more to rely on
      Alfie2510
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #14808: Nov 22, 2017 05:58:57 pm
      we could have scored another 2 or 3 but Jeez we could have easily conceded another 2 or 3. Nothing seems to change, this managers stubborness with certain players and approaches is going to be the end of him at Liverpool.
      redkop63
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #14809: Nov 22, 2017 08:37:52 pm
      we could have scored another 2 or 3 but Jeez we could have easily conceded another 2 or 3. Nothing seems to change, this managers stubborness with certain players and approaches is going to be the end of him at Liverpool.

      Blunt but true and yet the manager feels that he needs to give the usual suspects more time. How much more time??? Procrastination to the point of destruction by non-other than Klopp himself.
      bmck
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #14810: Nov 22, 2017 09:03:20 pm
      At 3-0 up some managers will shut up shop. Even 2-0 maybe.
      But we can't shut up shop - certainly not with the team that went 3-0 up anyway.
      Therein lies the problem.
      Not gonna pretend I wasn't thinking, lets go out here in the 2nd half and get 3 more. Batter the sh*t out of these fuckers, maybe someone grabs a hattrick.
      The Rodgers mentality?
      Should the manager be thinking, let's put the money in the bank and lock the safe?
      Hindsight is a great thing ;)
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Jürgen Klopp - Liverpool FC Manager
      Reply #14811: Nov 24, 2017 02:37:17 pm
      At 3-0 up some managers will shut up shop. Even 2-0 maybe.
      But we can't shut up shop - certainly not with the team that went 3-0 up anyway.
      Therein lies the problem.
      Not gonna pretend I wasn't thinking, lets go out here in the 2nd half and get 3 more. Batter the sh*t out of these fuckers, maybe someone grabs a hattrick.
      The Rodgers mentality?
      Should the manager be thinking, let's put the money in the bank and lock the safe?
      Hindsight is a great thing ;)

      Wherein lies the problem is the fact that shutting up shop at 0-3, especially when you haven't played well enough to deserve a 0-3 lead, does not need hindsight to realise. It's blatantly obvious. All six goals in that match where down to mistakes rather than any dominance by either side, but having been gifted three goals we lacked even the most fundementally basic game management.

      Forgetting even the fact we should have controlled the game much better, something we've shown incapable of doing under Klopp, where was the gamesmanship? When was the last time you saw us time wasting? Where where the substitutions to disrupt the flow of play and give us back control? Why were the substitutions so late?

      There's a collective failure at our club that extends beyond players and straight to the manager's door. Signing talented players is only part of the solution. We need to learn the art of one-upmanship if we're to be a success, an art that's been missing from this side since Suarez put away his red shirt for good.

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