The Summer Clearout and Rebuilding the Squad

Strikers... Think Ings will come good, Origi will continue to improve and become a beast of a player. Benteke will be on his way in the summer, and Sturridge, as much as I rate his finishing and ability, I think he's a petulant arrogant b***ard, and I'm not sure Klopp will put up with his attitude for too long.
If he doesn't shape up between now and August, I think he may be shipped out.
Just my opinion though.....

As the topic starter I've had a look at my opening post to review my thoughts from February. 

My view then was to strip the squad, that currently stands at 53 players, back to 15-18 senior regulars and use the best of our youth to make up the rest but with the injuries we've suffered and the fact that we've more or less had 2 games every week all season maybe that's a bit too much.

There will be natural wastage as quite a few are out of contract this summer and some that I thought could go have become mainstays in Jurgens regular starting 11.  I still believe there will be many more that leave than come in but we have such a bloated squad, numbers wise, that most of them haven't featured much, if at all, even on the bench.

These are my definites to go

Bogdan
Ilori
Enrique
Wisdom
McLaughlin
Caulker
Tex
Alberto
Balotelli
Dunn
Yesil
Sinclair

These are my possibles

Toure
Skrtel
Lucas
Allen
Benteke

Debs I believe that you would have to add Ibe to the List of  definites to go and remove Allen from the my possibles

Debs I believe that you would have to add Ibe to the List of  definites to go and remove Allen from the my possibles

I don't think any of the u21s will go mate apart from some that haven't featured with the seniors yet.  They all have plenty of time to improve.

Seems like a pointless exercise to sell Benteke and Sturridge to somehow discover a 20+ goal a season player in the transfer market.

Seems like a pointless exercise to sell Benteke and Sturridge to somehow discover a 20+ goal a season player in the transfer market.

not if they aren't klopp's kind of strikers. wouldn't it be a pointless exercise to keep players he doesn't want to keep? just because someone can score 20 goals in a certain team with certain teammates under a certain manager doesn't mean they will just keep rolling and growing and scoring more and more regardless of the system you put them in.

i love the fact that sturridge seems to not be assured a place. i love how fans are panicking. we are growing out of our old way of thinking. for far too F***ing long this footy club has put players above the club, klopp is stomping this dirty mentality out and i couldn't be happier. if sturridge has to leave then three words - big F***ing deal. we will not fold as a club. he is not the best striker in the world. if klopp sees sturridge as a man unable or unwilling to lead the line for a premier league club then so be it. if he wants to sell my favorite player because he isn't good enough for the system then so be it. i am not bigger than the club and neither is my favorite player. my idea of my favorite player is very different to a coaches knowledge and that is why we back our man.

i've always thought sturridge couldn't lead the line, for what it's worth. the last european tie is a prime example. he sent benteke on instead of sturridge - why? because benteke is better at performing in klopp's system as klopp wanted it that match. forget what you think you know about what it takes to win a game, we really know nothing about the game or how to win a european semi final first leg do we? we know absolutely nothing, even after our experience watching our club in these ties, we know nothing compared to our manager which is why we put our trust in him.

sturridge has always been a luxury, a goalscorer you build around to score goals. but when it comes to playing like an intelligent cohesive unit for 90 minutes does he have the bottle? can he LEAD THE LINE in every sense of the word or does he just have the ability to win a game off his own boot? i say that like it's nothing, we know it is, but next to a complete striker that can lead the line it isn't enough. this is no slight on sturridge, i loved him when he played for chelsea and i was hoping we would "save" him. but i love klopp more and if klopp doesn't like him then we have to say thanks for the memories and good luck in the future.

Loving and sharing the optimism so genuine question:

What is it that makes 'you' believe that the transfer committee [scouts, analysts and digital based info] will get it right under Jürgen, when they didn't before?

Loving and sharing the optimism so genuine question:

What is it that makes 'you' believe that the transfer committee [scouts, analysts and digital based info] will get it right under Jürgen, when they didn't before?

Firstly, I don't think a lot of the transfer committee signings were ever given a proper chance under Rodgers. I think they're much better than they were made to look and Emre Can, Sakho, Moreno, etc. are all good examples of this. Secondly, I think Klopp will have much more influence on the transfer committee. Thirdly, I think Klopp and the transfer committee will work in tandem rather than act as opposing forces which is what it felt like at times under Rodgers.

Firstly, I don't think a lot of the transfer committee signings were ever given a proper chance under Rodgers. I think they're much better than they were made to look and Emre Can, Sakho, Moreno, etc. are all good examples of this. Secondly, I think Klopp will have much more influence on the transfer committee. Thirdly, I think Klopp and the transfer committee will work in tandem rather than act as opposing forces which is what it felt like at times under Rodgers.

Thanks for the reply Barney - definitely food for thought there and I'm pretty much in agreement with all you've 'said'.

There was (to my mind anyhow) a definite rift between what the Committee provided and what Brendan wanted. That rift highlighted by the fact Brendan didn't play [give "a proper chance"] quite a few new signings as much as he could have - the thought I suppose being 'if I didn't want them, why should I play them' - although to be fair; all managers, Jürgen included, do exactly the same thing. I totally agree however that they definitely appeared to be "opposing forces".

But is that the fault of 'the committee' or the manager Barney? Should he have trusted them more or should they have listened to him more? I don't know mate - although I do know who (without them giving the subject much thought) people will blame. . Think of it like this...

It could be argued that, by doing just that [refusing to start players], Brendan Rodgers was trying to have more influence on transfers and the committee - something you say, in your second point, Jürgen will have. So, while I agree that he may have more influence, I'm just not sure how it will manifest itself...

It would be nice to think that Jürgen has "first call" on players [something, I suppose, Brendan Rodgers wanted] because, let's face it - "last call" is F***ing irrelevant without it. However...

Ayre is adamant that the Committee will operate just as it did before; with, just as he did before, the manager [now Jürgen] having the "final say". Here's how that read:

Ayre continued to explain, this is a forward-thinking, modern approach to recruitment.

“There’s only one person that has the final say over what players [we sign] at Liverpool Football Club and that’s Jürgen Klopp right now,” ... “That’s always been the case for as long as I’ve been here.”

“The point that has been made about the committee, and I don’t think we did anything any different to most football clubs, is that the manager will say we are looking for somebody in this position and a bunch of people – a mix of traditional scouts and more recently analytical and digital-based information – bring all of that together as was always the case,” he said.

“Then we look at two, three, four players, the best players for that position, show them to the manager and the manager can go watch or have the scouts go watch those players and narrow it down.

“At that point I’ll become more involved and start talking to clubs, agents, players on a negotiations basis and then the manager will choose.”

http://www.thisisanfield.com/2015/11/Jürgen-klopp-has-final-say-despite-liverpools-transfer-committee-approach-ian-ayre/

I've read that a few times now and cutting to the chase - it's clear that the manager's "final say" is on a very limited selection, picked for him by scouts and program analysts ... Aye is convinced "that’s always been the case".

The point I'm trying to make is: If the ["last call"] status quo remains - Jürgen might, very well, find himself at loggerheads with the Committee - just as Brendan did.

Finally, one last thing - Jürgen initially made a point that 'development is working with what you have'. After, very nearly, one full season of working with and 'developing' the transfer committee's players; it will be interesting to see how he rates the players and therefore the committee's record, to date. 

The Summer window will be interesting.


 

They're actually naive enough to think that their baseball sh*t can apply to football in the same exact way. Moneyball? Ye right. They've never really worked off that theory. They offer ridiculous contracts to their baseball players and they offer stupid money for average players here too. I thought moneyball was about buying undervalued players on the cheap and selling them on when they become overvalued by other teams? Carroll, Downing, Benteke, Balotelli, Allen and Lovren are certainly not undervalued based on their transfer fees or some of their contracts.

I'd love to know what the analytics were for the signings off Moreno, Mignolet, Balotelli, Carroll, Downing etc. They're full of sh*t.

It might help somewhat if the scouts weren't from the likes of Huddersfield and other lower level teams.

I don't think any of the u21s will go mate apart from some that haven't featured with the seniors yet.  They all have plenty of time to improve.

I don't know deb, he is not really progress and I believe Klopp is on record as say that there are too many average players at Liverpool and not enough quality players... But I could be wrong 

They're actually naive enough to think that their baseball sh*t can apply to football in the same exact way. Moneyball? Ye right. They've never really worked off that theory. They offer ridiculous contracts to their baseball players and they offer stupid money for average players here too. I thought moneyball was about buying undervalued players on the cheap and selling them on when they become overvalued by other teams? Carroll, Downing, Benteke, Balotelli, Allen and Lovren are certainly not undervalued based on their transfer fees or some of their contracts.

I'd love to know what the analytics were for the signings off Moreno, Mignolet, Balotelli, Carroll, Downing etc. They're full of sh*t.

It might help somewhat if the scouts weren't from the likes of Huddersfield and other lower level teams.

sorry but i feel like this post is straight out of 2012, who mentioned moneyball recently? when have we ever operated like that?

Moreno, Mignolet, Balotelli, Carroll, Downing etc. They're full of sh*

The concept of moneyball is greatly misunderstood..not that it works but Carroll, Downing & guys like Benteke could never be consider moneyball signings.

You could look to a Danny Ings, Sturridge, Coutinho....high upside players that for some reason have hit a roadblock and are not valued at what they're true worth is. Guy's like Lovren, Lallana, Joe Allen were bought at a premium over and above high performance..this is the exact opposite of the "moneyball concept"

No matter the metrics to purchase a player there are always hits/misses....Two players with perceived "attitude" at the time of purchase were Studge and Balotelli..this perceived attitude drove they're value down..but again there one big hit/one big miss

We can all speculate about how things do or don't work in regard to transfers but it doesn't always follow.

Look at the Grujic transfer a young Serbian lad recommended by Buvac to Jürgen who got his man. Obviously the club would have gone through the usual checks but there was no role of any scouts.
The lad Zielinski being mentioned at the moment suggests again a big influence from Jürgen and his staff.

When Brendan was here we were linked to a lot of PL players because that's what Brendan knew.

Point being the managers have a much bigger say than a lot on here like to assume.

We can all speculate about how things do or don't work in regard to transfers but it doesn't always follow.

Look at the Grujic transfer a young Serbian lad recommended by Buvac to Jürgen who got his man. Obviously the club would have gone through the usual checks but there was no role of any scouts.
The lad Zielinski being mentioned at the moment suggests again a big influence from Jürgen and his staff.

When Brendan was here we were linked to a lot of PL players because that's what Brendan knew.

Point being the managers have a much bigger say than a lot on here like to assume.

I'm not so sure mate. More than half the players signed under Brendan came from clubs abroad while many of the players he signed from clubs in England were also foreign (Lovren, Mignolet, Benteke etc). Whether that is more of a comment on the state of English football than on a transfer policy, again I am not sure.

As with Brendan they seem to have given Jürgen a couple of "first picks", on his arrival Brendan brought in Borini and Allen as his "first picks." 

I don't think we will ever "know for sure" but I am hoping Jürgen will have a better relationship with the TC than Brendan did and hopefully more influence a well.

Certainly the players we have signed under Jürgen so far seem to fit in well with the TC's frame of reference.

Just my thoughts, I wouldn't sell any of the strikers that we have. Stur gives us the goals if he could stay fit as we keep saying, Ings and origi definitely has got something to offer while Benteke gives us different options upfront. Next season like any other season is gonna be a long one and keeping more striker at our disposal would help.

I'd believe a DM and a quality CB would add real value to the squad.

I believe what we really need to look at who are the players that have been "consistently inconsistent" over the whole season and these are the players that we really need to move them on, however good they may be. These are the players that will hold us back in the long season. Migs, Lallana, Hendo, Firmino and Moreno springs to mind. I'm not going on a debate about these players but I really like them but they are not the answer for the future of the club. The truth always hurts as the saying goes.

More than half the players signed under Brendan came from clubs abroad while many of the players he signed from clubs in England were also foreign (Lovren, Mignolet, Benteke etc).

100% s@int - it's quite simply a blatant lie (possibly born out of ignorance) to say otherwise.

But... to be blunt - Just as it's common knowledge as to how the committee works , as it's well enough documented, it's also not the first time the truth has been pointed out (re: where our signing come from).

Ignorant or feigning ignorance  - either way it doesn't read well. It's frightening to think people can be that daft.

Quality, rather than quantity is what the Reds need, in the Summer transfer window, to my mind.

I'm not so sure mate. More than half the players signed under Brendan came from clubs abroad while many of the players he signed from clubs in England were also foreign (Lovren, Mignolet, Benteke etc). Whether that is more of a comment on the state of English football than on a transfer policy, again I am not sure.

As with Brendan they seem to have given Jürgen a couple of "first picks", on his arrival Brendan brought in Borini and Allen as his "first picks." 

I don't think we will ever "know for sure" but I am hoping Jürgen will have a better relationship with the TC than Brendan did and hopefully more influence a well.

Certainly the players we have signed under Jürgen so far seem to fit in well with the TC's frame of reference.

Were Benteke, Lovren, Lallana, Lambert and Milner not Brendan's first choice picks?

Were Benteke, Lovren, Lallana, Lambert and Milner not Brendan's first choice picks?

Probably mate, but by that time the working relationship between Brendan and the TC had failed almost completely to the extent that they were supposedly taking turns to pick players.

I was meaning when the transfer system was supposedly working under Brendan...as it is supposedly working now. 

Now that the season I would be disappointed if the following left

Clyne
Can
Firmino
Coutinho
Sturridge
Origi

Couldn't care less about the rest.

I'm not so sure mate. More than half the players signed under Brendan came from clubs abroad while many of the players he signed from clubs in England were also foreign (Lovren, Mignolet, Benteke etc). Whether that is more of a comment on the state of English football than on a transfer policy, again I am not sure.

As with Brendan they seem to have given Jürgen a couple of "first picks", on his arrival Brendan brought in Borini and Allen as his "first picks." 

I don't think we will ever "know for sure" but I am hoping Jürgen will have a better relationship with the TC than Brendan did and hopefully more influence a well.

Certainly the players we have signed under Jürgen so far seem to fit in well with the TC's frame of reference.

Which players did Jürgen sign so far? only Caulker...

We will not need a huge squad next season and if we play the kids in the League cup we are looking at players having a season of 40 odd games.
Clyne,Sakho and Lovren stay for me Migs and Moreno should go. Midfield is the place were the work needs doing we have to have a bit of steel in it and at present we do not.
Lucas has been great but his pace is his down fall now so him and Lallana for me should go leaving Milner,Can,henderson.
Obviously Firmino and Couthino stay as would Sturridge,Origi and yes Benteke who given a full pre season with Klopp might just prove us all wrong.
So foe me it would be 3 or 4 players but experienced top class players even if they are 30 years old or more we need a better balance in the squad.

Which players did Jürgen sign so far? only Caulker...

Matip and Grujic. Freebie and prospect