Loris Karius (End of Contract)

My Live threads should not come into this. I would prefer Ward rather broken and stressed Karius. It was as a back-up plan to us signing a world-class keeper.
Both Mignolet and Karius were given their chance, I would like to see Ward playing in the pre-season and being our no. 2 keeper after a very good signing.

Statistics show that Karius took his. Here is the case for why we shouldn't get rid of him based upon Saturday's game. Why a lot of the accusations being thrown at him right now are an extreme case of overreaction and entirely untrue. Accusation such as "he's a poor goal keeper" or "we don't have as good a Keeper as Chelsea, Spurs or City", or the best of the lot, "He's no better than Mignolet". It's utter crap. In the official Premier League Statistics for 2018, Karius is ranked 7th. On the face of things that doesn't sound too great, does it? I mean who wants the seventh best goalkeeper in the league when we want to challenge for the title and Europe, right? That's fair to say, however, look a bit deeper and you see he was actually ranked joint 4th. I know, I know, who wants the 4th best Keeper in the League when we're trying to challenge for silverware and the league title? Right? Only, let's look even deeper into the stats. Here is the top five goalkeepers in the league.

1) De Gea
2) Ederson
3) Courtois/Lloris
4) Petr Cech/Pope/Foster/Karius/Lössl/Ryan/Pickford
5) Lukasz Fabianski

Well at least we have a better goalkeeper than Arsenal and Everton. I suppose that's something. However, you have to remember that Karius only played from January. First of all what other Keeper played half a season? That's right, Simon 'Glue on my boots' Mignolet. What's his rank? 8th (adjusted for joint rankings). Furthermore, if we consider that he did only play half a season, and halve everyone else's score to reflect that, what is Karius's ranking? 1st. That's right, according to the official Premier League rankings, he's the best goalkeeper in the League, at least statistically.

You know what they say, there are lies, damned lies and statistics, so let's look at this from a head-to-head perspective:

Karius vs Lloris:

Appearances: Karius 19/Lloris 36
Clean sheets (across half a season): Karius 10/Lloris 7.5

Karius vs Ederson:

Appearances: Karius 19/Ederson 36
Clean sheets (across half a season): Karius 10/Ederson 8

Karius vs Courtois:

Appearances: Karius 19/Courtois 35
Clean sheets (across half a season): Karius 10/Courtois 7.5

Karius vs De Gea:

Appearances: Karius 19/De Gea 37
Clean sheets (across half a season): Karius 10/De Gea 9

And finally, the Keepers at our club, Karius vs. Mignolet:

Appearances: Karius 19/Mignolet 19
Clean sheets (across half a season): Karius 10/Mignolet 7

So he's not only an upgrade on what we had at the beginning of the season, but bang goes the myth that we don't have as good a Keeper as Chelsea, Spurs or City. According to the statistics, we even have a better keeper than United, although I would say in terms of skill De Gea is in a league above, but then he doesn't have supporters baying for his blood every time he looks uncomfortable with a catch. In fact statistically, the only keeper better than him is Cech, but he is a veteran Keeper at the end of his career with a huge amount of experience behind him. And supportive supporters.

Look, allow me to be clear. I am not for one moment suggesting he's better than De Gea, despite statistically being so, but the stats do speak for themselves when they demonstrate that the lad is nowhere near as bad as people make out, and that on a skill level, he is one of the best, indeed statistically the best in the league right now. Nor am I suggesting he shouldn't be sold, but if he is sold it should be because we have found a marked improvement for his position, the same way any player should be moved on if an upgrade can be found for them. To stand still in the market is the death of any club. What I am saying is that there has been a massive overreaction to his mistakes at the weekend and we do actually have a very good goalkeeper, albeit one that has been prone to mistakes, but mistakes can be coached out of him.

All keepers make mistakes so personally, if he stays, I'm happy so long as his mistakes are not quite so glaring as throwing the ball on a strikers foot, and we know the club has looked for someone better and available and failed to find one. If he's sold, I'm happy so long as the replacement is a demonstrable upgrade and not the current flavour of the month with supporters. Either way, for now he is a Liverpool player and he is demonstrably a very good one so why don't we take the unusual step of actually getting behind the lad and helping him get past what happened, so he can continue being a very good keeper rather than the broken man he looked on Saturday.

Statistics show that Karius took his. Here is the case for why we shouldn't get rid of him based upon Saturday's game. Why a lot of the accusations being thrown at him right now are an extreme case of overreaction and entirely untrue. Accusation such as "he's a poor goal keeper" or "we don't have as good a Keeper as Chelsea, Spurs or City", or the best of the lot, "He's no better than Mignolet". It's utter crap. In the official Premier League Statistics for 2018, Karius is ranked 7th. On the face of things that doesn't sound too great, does it? I mean who wants the seventh best goalkeeper in the league when we want to challenge for the title and Europe, right? That's fair to say, however, look a bit deeper and you see he was actually ranked joint 4th. I know, I know, who wants the 4th best Keeper in the League when we're trying to challenge for silverware and the league title? Right? Only, let's look even deeper into the stats. Here is the top five goalkeepers in the league.

1) De Gea
2) Ederson
3) Courtois/Lloris
4) Petr Cech/Pope/Foster/Karius/Lössl/Ryan/Pickford
5) Lukasz Fabianski

Well at least we have a better goalkeeper than Arsenal and Everton. I suppose that's something. However, you have to remember that Karius only played from January. First of all what other Keeper played half a season? That's right, Simon 'Glue on my boots' Mignolet. What's his rank? 8th (adjusted for joint rankings). Furthermore, if we consider that he did only play half a season, and halve everyone else's score to reflect that, what is Karius's ranking? 1st. That's right, according to the official Premier League rankings, he's the best goalkeeper in the League, at least statistically.

You know what they say, there are lies, damned lies and statistics, so let's look at this from a head-to-head perspective:

Karius vs Lloris:

Appearances: Karius 19/Lloris 36
Clean sheets (across half a season): Karius 10/Lloris 7.5

Karius vs Ederson:

Appearances: Karius 19/Ederson 36
Clean sheets (across half a season): Karius 10/Ederson 8

Karius vs Courtois:

Appearances: Karius 19/Courtois 35
Clean sheets (across half a season): Karius 10/Courtois 7.5

Karius vs De Gea:

Appearances: Karius 19/De Gea 37
Clean sheets (across half a season): Karius 10/De Gea 9

And finally, the Keepers at our club, Karius vs. Mignolet:

Appearances: Karius 19/Mignolet 19
Clean sheets (across half a season): Karius 10/Mignolet 7

So he's not only an upgrade on what we had at the beginning of the season, but bang goes the myth that we don't have as good a Keeper as Chelsea, Spurs or City. According to the statistics, we even have a better keeper than United, although I would say in terms of skill De Gea is in a league above, but then he doesn't have supporters baying for his blood every time he looks uncomfortable with a catch. In fact statistically, the only keeper better than him is Cech, but he is a veteran Keeper at the end of his career with a huge amount of experience behind him. And supportive supporters.

Look, allow me to be clear. I am not for one moment suggesting he's better than De Gea, despite statistically being so, but the stats do speak for themselves when they demonstrate that the lad is nowhere near as bad as people make out, and that on a skill level, he is one of the best, indeed statistically the best in the league right now. Nor am I suggesting he shouldn't be sold, but if he is sold it should be because we have found a marked improvement for his position, the same way any player should be moved on if an upgrade can be found for them. To stand still in the market is the death of any club. What I am saying is that there has been a massive overreaction to his mistakes at the weekend and we do actually have a very good goalkeeper, albeit one that has been prone to mistakes, but mistakes can be coached out of him.

All keepers make mistakes so personally, if he stays, I'm happy so long as his mistakes are not quite so glaring as throwing the ball on a strikers foot, and we know the club has looked for someone better and available and failed to find one. If he's sold, I'm happy so long as the replacement is a demonstrable upgrade and not the current flavour of the month with supporters. Either way, for now he is a Liverpool player and he is demonstrably a very good one so why don't we take the unusual step of actually getting behind the lad and helping him get past what happened, so he can continue being a very good keeper rather than the broken man he looked on Saturday.

These statistics are misleading, the moment Karius was made first choice we had VVD who massively improved our defense and players like Robertson and TAA improved massively in the 2nd half of the season. we conceded fewer goals with VVD on the side than without.

We all feel for what happened to him on Saturday, but two blunders in the biggest game of the season shows he isn't good enough to stake a claim as a #1 keeper in the club. He's good enough to be #2. This is why a GK should be on the transfer list

Statistics show that Karius took his. Here is the case for why we shouldn't get rid of him based upon Saturday's game. Why a lot of the accusations being thrown at him right now are an extreme case of overreaction and entirely untrue. Accusation such as "he's a poor goal keeper" or "we don't have as good a Keeper as Chelsea, Spurs or City", or the best of the lot, "He's no better than Mignolet". It's utter crap. In the official Premier League Statistics for 2018, Karius is ranked 7th. On the face of things that doesn't sound too great, does it? I mean who wants the seventh best goalkeeper in the league when we want to challenge for the title and Europe, right? That's fair to say, however, look a bit deeper and you see he was actually ranked joint 4th. I know, I know, who wants the 4th best Keeper in the League when we're trying to challenge for silverware and the league title? Right? Only, let's look even deeper into the stats. Here is the top five goalkeepers in the league.

1) De Gea
2) Ederson
3) Courtois/Lloris
4) Petr Cech/Pope/Foster/Karius/Lössl/Ryan/Pickford
5) Lukasz Fabianski

Well at least we have a better goalkeeper than Arsenal and Everton. I suppose that's something. However, you have to remember that Karius only played from January. First of all what other Keeper played half a season? That's right, Simon 'Glue on my boots' Mignolet. What's his rank? 8th (adjusted for joint rankings). Furthermore, if we consider that he did only play half a season, and halve everyone else's score to reflect that, what is Karius's ranking? 1st. That's right, according to the official Premier League rankings, he's the best goalkeeper in the League, at least statistically.

You know what they say, there are lies, damned lies and statistics, so let's look at this from a head-to-head perspective:

Karius vs Lloris:

Appearances: Karius 19/Lloris 36
Clean sheets (across half a season): Karius 10/Lloris 7.5

Karius vs Ederson:

Appearances: Karius 19/Ederson 36
Clean sheets (across half a season): Karius 10/Ederson 8

Karius vs Courtois:

Appearances: Karius 19/Courtois 35
Clean sheets (across half a season): Karius 10/Courtois 7.5

Karius vs De Gea:

Appearances: Karius 19/De Gea 37
Clean sheets (across half a season): Karius 10/De Gea 9

And finally, the Keepers at our club, Karius vs. Mignolet:

Appearances: Karius 19/Mignolet 19
Clean sheets (across half a season): Karius 10/Mignolet 7

So he's not only an upgrade on what we had at the beginning of the season, but bang goes the myth that we don't have as good a Keeper as Chelsea, Spurs or City. According to the statistics, we even have a better keeper than United, although I would say in terms of skill De Gea is in a league above, but then he doesn't have supporters baying for his blood every time he looks uncomfortable with a catch. In fact statistically, the only keeper better than him is Cech, but he is a veteran Keeper at the end of his career with a huge amount of experience behind him. And supportive supporters.

Look, allow me to be clear. I am not for one moment suggesting he's better than De Gea, despite statistically being so, but the stats do speak for themselves when they demonstrate that the lad is nowhere near as bad as people make out, and that on a skill level, he is one of the best, indeed statistically the best in the league right now. Nor am I suggesting he shouldn't be sold, but if he is sold it should be because we have found a marked improvement for his position, the same way any player should be moved on if an upgrade can be found for them. To stand still in the market is the death of any club. What I am saying is that there has been a massive overreaction to his mistakes at the weekend and we do actually have a very good goalkeeper, albeit one that has been prone to mistakes, but mistakes can be coached out of him.

All keepers make mistakes so personally, if he stays, I'm happy so long as his mistakes are not quite so glaring as throwing the ball on a strikers foot, and we know the club has looked for someone better and available and failed to find one. If he's sold, I'm happy so long as the replacement is a demonstrable upgrade and not the current flavour of the month with supporters. Either way, for now he is a Liverpool player and he is demonstrably a very good one so why don't we take the unusual step of actually getting behind the lad and helping him get past what happened, so he can continue being a very good keeper rather than the broken man he looked on Saturday.

If the stats show that Karius is the best keeper in the prem then the stats are wrong because there is no F***ing way he is better than De Gea, Ederson, Lloris, Cech, Courteous, Butland, I could go on but you get the gist.

we were all understandably angry with the lad on Saturday night and whilst Jürgen will be the ultimate decision maker we have to be careful not to make a hasty decisions and just buy someone because of one game.
Yes if we can buy a recognised world class keeper with a "PROVEN" record then we would be mad not to go for them.
However Jürgen likes to take people who are desperate for a second chance or a chance to move upto the next level so I don't expect a big name goalkeeper signing.

we were all understandably angry with the lad on Saturday night and whilst Jürgen will be the ultimate decision maker we have to be careful not to make a hasty decisions and just buy someone because of one game.
Yes if we can buy a recognised world class keeper with a "PROVEN" record then we would be mad not to go for them.
However Jürgen likes to take people who are desperate for a second chance or a chance to move upto the next level so I don't expect a big name goalkeeper signing.

I agree with your post but on reflection I think back to when Bruce Grob first arrived at the club.He made some clanger sand to be honest used to put the fear of christ up us.As history will show he eventually did an excellent job for us.

we were all understandably angry with the lad on Saturday night and whilst Jürgen will be the ultimate decision maker we have to be careful not to make a hasty decisions and just buy someone because of one game.
Yes if we can buy a recognised world class keeper with a "PROVEN" record then we would be mad not to go for them.
However Jürgen likes to take people who are desperate for a second chance or a chance to move upto the next level so I don't expect a big name goalkeeper signing.

One thing I am sure of is Jürgen won't rush out and buy a keeper based on one game.

If we buy a keeper it'll be because he's thought we've needed one all season.

I think we'll definitely buy one but more because Mignolet will be off than what Karius did on Saturday.

we were all understandably angry with the lad on Saturday night and whilst Jürgen will be the ultimate decision maker we have to be careful not to make a hasty decisions and just buy someone because of one game.
Yes if we can buy a recognised world class keeper with a "PROVEN" record then we would be mad not to go for them.
However Jürgen likes to take people who are desperate for a second chance or a chance to move upto the next level so I don't expect a big name goalkeeper signing.

Its not just the one game although that should be enough of a reason, ie he can't cope with high pressure situations. His overall game is simply not good enough, despite what the stats say. Ask yourself this when you look at goalkeepers like De Gea, Courtois, Cech (at his best but even now), Lloris, Neuer, Oblak etc you get a sense that they are 100% confident and have full control of their area and role, I never get that sense from Karius, he always seems a bit nervy and in almost every game there is a brain fart moment, doesn't always lead to a goal but its there and its a worry.
Conclusion we need an upgrade if we are to seriously challenge for honours.

These statistics are misleading, the moment Karius was made first choice we had VVD who massively improved our defense and players like Robertson and TAA improved massively in the 2nd half of the season. we conceded fewer goals with VVD on the side than without.

We all feel for what happened to him on Saturday, but two blunders in the biggest game of the season shows he isn't good enough to stake a claim as a #1 keeper in the club. He's good enough to be #2. This is why a GK should be on the transfer list

So what? The same applies to United, or Spurs, or Chelsea, or City. They have solid Centre backs. That argument holds no more water than "Rodgers was only successful because of Suarez". Under that argument you may as well say De Gea is a pile of sh*t and is only any good because of United's defence, and that any goalkeeper can do a job there because of it.  It's spurious in the extreme.

If the stats show that Karius is the best keeper in the prem then the stats are wrong because there is no f**king way he is better than De Gea, Ederson, Lloris, Cech, Courteous, Butland, I could go on but you get the gist.

Statistically he was and there is no getting away from that. I however, am not suggesting he is, I'm suggesting that the argument that he's not talented is a false one. The point I'm making is he is talented and shouldn't be gotten rid of because of a knee jerk reaction to what happened on Saturday, but only on the basis of us finding someone better.

So what? The same applies to United, or Spurs, or Chelsea, or City. They have solid Centre backs. That argument holds no more water than "Rodgers was only successful because of Suarez". Under that argument you may as well say De Gea is a pile of sh*t and is only any good because of United's defence, and that any goalkeeper can do a job there because of it.  It's spurious in the extreme.

Statistically he was and there is no getting away from that. I however, am not suggesting he is, I'm suggesting that the argument that he's not talented is a false one. The point I'm making is he is talented and shouldn't be gotten rid of because of a knee jerk reaction to what happened on Saturday, but only on the basis of us finding someone better.

Goal keeper stats are probably the most difficult to use to rate a keeper as they don’t take into account things like the difficulty of the save, where was the shot taken from, was the shot directly at the keeper etc.

My fairly crude assessment of Karius is that yes he is better than Mignolet, not difficult I know, he will make saves you expect most keepers to make but has the odd blunder in him.

The odd blunder can be forgiven if he occasionally pulled off saves that he has no right in making, unfortunately I have not seen him do this at all so far and that’s what differentiates the top keepers from the average. Can he get to that level, not so sure he can.

Bearing in mind we seem to have upgraded the defence with VVD and Robertson and the midfield with Keita and Fabinho the keeper remains our weakest position without a upgrade.

Goal keeper stats are probably the most difficult to use to rate a keeper as they don’t take into account things like the difficulty of the save, where was the shot taken from, was the shot directly at the keeper etc.

My fairly crude assessment of Karius is that yes he is better than Mignolet, not difficult I know, he will make saves you expect most keepers to make but has the odd blunder in him.

The odd blunder can be forgiven if he occasionally pulled off saves that he has no right in making, unfortunately I have not seen him do this at all so far and that’s what differentiates the top keepers from the average. Can he get to that level, not so sure he can.

Bearing in mind we seem to have upgraded the defence with VVD and Robertson and the midfield with Keita and Fabinho the keeper remains our weakest position without a upgrade.

I would suggest that he had no business saving Ronaldo's header but he did.

I would suggest that he had no business saving Ronaldo's header but he did.

Come on, that header was right at him and what did he do, push it straight back out to Benzema for a tap in, that is not exactly a great example of goalkeeping brilliance, do you have any more?

I would suggest that he had no business saving Ronaldo's header but he did.

It was pretty much straight at him ? I would expect any decent keeper to save that tbh.

Goal keeper stats are probably the most difficult to use to rate a keeper as they don’t take into account things like the difficulty of the save, where was the shot taken from, was the shot directly at the keeper etc.

My fairly crude assessment of Karius is that yes he is better than Mignolet, not difficult I know, he will make saves you expect most keepers to make but has the odd blunder in him.

The odd blunder can be forgiven if he occasionally pulled off saves that he has no right in making, unfortunately I have not seen him do this at all so far and that’s what differentiates the top keepers from the average. Can he get to that level, not so sure he can.

Bearing in mind we seem to have upgraded the defence with VVD and Robertson and the midfield with Keita and Fabinho the keeper remains our weakest position without a upgrade.

Then you haven't been watching the games. 2 that immediately coming to mind are the save vs. Newcastle right before half time and the save vs. Everton (Bolasie) with a curling shot outside the area he tipped to the side of the post.

Massive, massive f**k up on Saturday that ultimately may not be able to recover from, but to say he has never made those kind of saves is ridiculous.

Add: And those 2 saves against Newcastle/Everton were not in blow out games where a goal would not have really mattered. They were point-saving saves as we were only up 1-0 against Newcastle and a goal there ties it right before halftime, and who knows what Rafa does to steal the point. Against Everton the game ended 0-0 so it saved us a point.

The odd blunder can be forgiven if he occasionally pulled off saves that he has no right in making, unfortunately I have not seen him do this at all so far and that’s what differentiates the top keepers from the average. Can he get to that level, not so sure he can.

His save in the derby at Goodison was a top class save and there have been a few others in the season too.

His save in the derby at Goodison was a top class save and there have been a few others in the season too.

exactly. Here is the video vs. Everton. World-class save and but because it's Karius it's suddenly forgotten by the same people who want us to get a keeper who can make that kind of save 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NJZTHsZYhc

exactly. Here is the video vs. Everton. World-class save and but because it's Karius it's suddenly forgotten by the same people who want us to get a keeper who can make that kind of save 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NJZTHsZYhc

Could not give a flying F**k. Any keeper playing for Liverpool should be capable of making a world class save.

We sold Pepe and we have never replaced him. Klopp has fu**ed about with the position since he arrived and inevitably it cost him and us our 6th European Cup!

He will keep letting us down if he stays. I guarantee you that.

I think some of the reactions after Saturday night were over the top (as a group of supporters we are better than that) but on the whole, this lad is nowhere near good enough to be Liverpool number one.

I don't disagree that he's got better this season, and I don't disagree with anyone saying he's made some big saves but he's also cost us a lot and he's also got away with a lot. His mistakes cost us the final but easily could have cost us against City and again against Roma. People can dig out stats to prove he's as good as Ederson/Lloris/Courtois/De Gea whatever but just from watching him a few times he's obviously a long way from that level. He's young-ish for a keeper yes but he's not exactly 19/20 either so don't see him improving a massive amount which should be enough for Klopp to persue a new keeper.

I think some of the reactions after Saturday night were over the top (as a group of supporters we are better than that) but on the whole, this lad is nowhere near good enough to be Liverpool number one.

I agree, some of the reactions after Saturday are ridiculous, but I understand it from the people that acknowledged he had failings and accepted he made big mistakes prior to the CL final.  What I am a little bit surprised is, the ones that couldn't see Karius' faults and rated him as high as any in world football are okay with us buying a new keeper.

Could not give a flying F**k. Any keeper playing for Liverpool should be capable of making a world class save.

We sold Pepe and we have never replaced him. Klopp has fu**ed about with the position since he arrived and inevitably it cost him and us our 6th European Cup!

He will keep letting us down if he stays. I guarantee you that.

Hyperbole there lad and talking utter sh*te. That last line is your emotions getting the better of you. I guarantee Klopp will not get shut of Karius, he will feel he can coach them mistakes out of him. Those two mistakes could drive him on to become a better keeper. No one knows because we don't have a crystal ball.

We did replace Reina, his replacement was fine for most of the season we were going for the league, then started getting panicky and he's still there.

Maybe it's not the goalies, maybe it's the goalkeeping coaches? Who knows!!

exactly. Here is the video vs. Everton. World-class save and but because it's Karius it's suddenly forgotten by the same people who want us to get a keeper who can make that kind of save 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NJZTHsZYhc

OK I'll give you that one, that was a decent save but in reality I would expect most goalkeepers to make it, I genuinely can't think of any times I've gone wow that was an unbelievable save from Karius whereas I constantly do that with many other keepers, especially De Gea.

I agree, some of the reactions after Saturday are ridiculous, but I understand it from the people that acknowledged he had failings and accepted he made big mistakes prior to the CL final.  What I am a little bit surprised is, the ones that couldn't see Karius' faults and rated him as high as any in world football are okay with us buying a new keeper.

Yes how dare fans be pissed off when a goalkeeper does TWO massive fuckups in a CL final, tut tut. I agree the death threats are way over the top and I do genuinely feel sorry for the guy as I'm sure he is beating himself up about it way more than we are, but I'm still mad as hell because without those 2 completely avoidable mistakes we had a chance even with Mo going off injured.

Then you haven't been watching the games. 2 that immediately coming to mind are the save vs. Newcastle right before half time and the save vs. Everton (Bolasie) with a curling shot outside the area he tipped to the side of the post.

Massive, massive f**k up on Saturday that ultimately may not be able to recover from, but to say he has never made those kind of saves is ridiculous.

Add: And those 2 saves against Newcastle/Everton were not in blow out games where a goal would not have really mattered. They were point-saving saves as we were only up 1-0 against Newcastle and a goal there ties it right before halftime, and who knows what Rafa does to steal the point. Against Everton the game ended 0-0 so it saved us a point.

With all due respect I have seen every single game this season and the two you mention most keepers make those.

Maybe you need to go to Spec savers if you think they are anything except bread and butter for a professional EPL Keeper.

He made 2 mistakes that cost us the game.

Other than those I thought he was playing alright, made some good stops.

Still maintain that it was the Salah exit that actually cost us the game.  That's when we stopped playing.

The first mistake was effectively cancelled out within 4 minutes and the 3rd goal didn't impact upon the result.

If it had been 2-2 and looking like a competitive game when he let the 3rd goal in then it would be true to say he would have cost us the game.

Karius' biggest mistake is that he did it in the biggest game he could.  But there are players in the Liverpool team who have made far more regular mistakes. 

Let's not forget as well Zidane himself in the World Cup final.  Seems to have gotten over that now in his footballing career.