Is a "slow building job" and 6th-8th OK, or should we aim higher?

So that's my question. Are we kind of giving up on this season,

Before a ball has been kicked in pre-season, let alone anything competitive, we're writing the season off. Behave yourself Mick.

We're Liverpool Football Club for fucks sake and everybody who has the club at heart should be aiming for the very top because that's what Liverpool Football Club is all about.

More points, more goals, more clean sheets would do me.

Entirely possible we could satisfy all these rules and end up in the same position.  I think the majority of us are sensible enough to know what progress looks like.  If we get 10 points more than last season we could just as equally end up finishing in the same position or in the Champions League.

We saw glimpses of progress last season in terms of getting to two cup finals for the first time in 4 years so let's see if we can push on with progress in the league.  Hard to see Chelsea, United and City being as sh*te as they were last year with better managers in charge so it's going to be a lot tougher than last season.

More points, more goals, more clean sheets would do me.

Entirely possible we could satisfy all these rules and end up in the same position.  I think the majority of us are sensible enough to know what progress looks like.  If we get 10 points more than last season we could just as equally end up finishing in the same position or in the Champions League.

We saw glimpses of progress last season in terms of getting to two cup finals for the first time in 4 years so let's see if we can push on with progress in the league.  Hard to see Chelsea, United and City being as sh*te as they were last year with better managers in charge so it's going to be a lot tougher than last season.

Never underestimate the transition phase of introducing a new manager with new tactics and ideas.

Unless of course you do a Ranieri and build on a good thing.

Well if a poster says that on this board Mick then of course they would be labeled as someone who dumb's down expectations and has no ambition but I think we are reading things about the same other than to say I enjoy the ride as much as reaching the destination and I look forward to Jürgen being the tour guide.

Agreed AZ and agree with everything you've said in this thread, top posting.

Just to pick Mick up on his assertion that he sees it very similar, I don't hear that at all from his posts if I'm honest. I do hear the similarities but the differences are also quite clear too.

I hear the words of "you have to buy the best", "you have to pay the top wages", "you can't do a Dortmund here". Now correct me if I'm wrong Mick but that attitude doesn't fit in with the theory I believe I share with AZ that a little short term development this season could see us make massive strides leading to title challenges. With everything you've said Mick you've basically said it's impossible to compete with the teams above us and I don't see how your view would change unless Jürgen paid top dollar for players?

Slow building job? As opposed to the ham fisted, "BUY, BUY, SELL SELL!!!" whack a mole transfer strategy that has become the norm under FSG? Come off it mick. Jürgen is actually giving this squad a chance merely by giving them the time to actually be a squad that know each other

I'm sick and tired of starting each season with a different team from the last one. Let the team settle and let the manager tweak it and perfect it to his desires. No one, certainly not Klopp, would write off this coming season.

Agreed AZ and agree with everything you've said in this thread, top posting.

Just to pick Mick up on his assertion that he sees it very similar, I don't hear that at all from his posts if I'm honest. I do hear the similarities but the differences are also quite clear too.

I hear the words of "you have to buy the best", "you have to pay the top wages", "you can't do a Dortmund here". Now correct me if I'm wrong Mick but that attitude doesn't fit in with the theory I believe I share with AZ that a little short term development this season could see us make massive strides leading to title challenges. With everything you've said Mick you've basically said it's impossible to compete with the teams above us and I don't see how your view would change unless Jürgen paid top dollar for players?

I've got you and AZ as essentially saying the same thing too Luke, so no probs there. I AGREE with you both in that I think to expect a title push this season is unrealistic, but I guess I'm less of a believer that we will eventually get there without splashing the cash a bit more and binning the "buy em young and pay em less" recruitment policy. I've said a few times now, I don't think it can be done by employing such a method, particularly when it involves selling your better players too.

As I've said many times I hope I'm wrong, but I think we're trying to achieve the unachievable. My guess is that in 18 months time people will be clamouring for the purse strings to be slackened, for Jürgen to properly backed in the transfer market. Equally, my guess is that by then the boss will have realised that you need better signings than Zeilinsky and the like if you are going to make up ground on the Manchester teams, Chelsea, Arsenal and Tottenham. By then he'll be all over it too, but by then we'll have wasted two years of having one of the best managers in the world at the helm. 

I've got you and AZ as essentially saying the same thing too Luke, so no probs there. I AGREE with you both in that I think to expect a title push this season is unrealistic, but I guess I'm less of a believer that we will eventually get there without splashing the cash a bit more and binning the "buy em young and pay em less" recruitment policy. I've said a few times now, I don't think it can be done by employing such a method, particularly when it involves selling your better players too.

As I've said many times I hope I'm wrong, but I think we're trying to achieve the unachievable. My guess is that in 18 months time people will be clamouring for the purse strings to be slackened, for Jürgen to properly backed in the transfer market. Equally, my guess is that by then the boss will have realised that you need better signings than Zeilinsky and the like if you are going to make up ground on the Manchester teams, Chelsea, Arsenal and Tottenham. By then he'll be all over it too, but by then we'll have wasted two years of having one of the best managers in the world at the helm. 

Fair enough Mick, pretty much as I thought you were then, cheers.

Just to summarise an answer to your opening question 6th to 8th would be a bitter disappointment for me in any year in the league. Jürgen failed this year and even if he makes it to top 4 next season he'll still 'fail', only winning the title isn't failure. However I can appreciate progress and I think a top 4 finish this season, even without the distractions of Europe, would be a damn good step in the right direction.

No Europe this season. Anything less than top 4, isn't good enough. I expect some more money to be splashed this window.

Aim higher.

And we will finish higher.

Aim higher.

And we will finish higher.

This guy is on to something.

Good to see you again Si.

SOP but here we go. I think we will challenge this year. I was beginning to think that with Guardiola and Moronho spending trillions and most likely Conte too, because they are fantastic managers and money has no impact on results of course, that we would be better off waiting for a meaningful challenge. However, I think Klopp has all three managers measure and it will be the games against these teams that will decide our fate. We can beat the rest. We do need a keeper and two or three key positions filled; primarily the LB role.

Not many answering the question though. Is it OK to finish 6th-8th again if we do it on the cheap, and with the objective of "building" a team for the future. The reason I ask is that's what I think we're doing, and that's what I think will happen.

No I don't think it is acceptable to finish 6-8th Mick. It wasn't acceptable under previous managers and it is certainly not acceptable under Jürgen.

I accept that most of the players we have bought so far under Jürgen are not players who will make a huge difference this season, but that does not in anyway excuse him from the expectations we should have. We are Liverpool and as such it is up to our manager to ensure we are up were we belong. If he can do that without spending too much great.. if he can't then he had better get out the cheque book because 6-8th is not acceptable.

The only defence for not bringing in top quality players is if Jürgen can still achieve our expectations of a title challenge or at least top 4 with the players we have, if he can't then he will have failed imo.

As I have said repeatedly, I believe we will spend and I believe he will meet our expectations...so I am not worried at the moment. If it gets towards the end of August and we still haven't brought in the quality I think we need THEN I will start to worry. 

I guess my worry is that while we're trying to "do a Dortmund" our rivals are trying to "do a Bayern Munich". They of course won and win far more than Dortmund, and do it with a different model. While obviously they are no doubt looking for the next Thomas Muller and Phillip Lahm, thiey don't stop there. They don't overly concern themselves with trying to find the next Robert Lewandowski, they just acquire the current one. They didn't bother scouring the reserve teams of Europe looking a bloke who passes like Xabi Alonso, they just bought Xabi Alonso, the real one.

They didn't look at Matts Hummels and think, "if only we could find a player like him", they thought "why look? we've already found a player like him. He's called Matts Hummels". They bought him. Just like they bought Mario Goetze, who funnily enough turned out to be a bit of a disaster for them. On the back if the Goetze deal though, they didn't think "right that's it, we aren't signing any more expensive players", they kind of just put it down to experience.

See that's my worry. Jürgen is being asked to "do a Dortmund", but the trouble is in our league there are four other teams trying to "do a Bayern Munich", as well as Spurs "doing a Dortmund" just as well as we are.

No I don't think it is acceptable to finish 6-8th Mick. It wasn't acceptable under previous managers and it is certainly not acceptable under Jürgen.

I accept that most of the players we have bought so far under Jürgen are not players who will make a huge difference this season, but that does not in anyway excuse him from the expectations we should have. We are Liverpool and as such it is up to our manager to ensure we are up were we belong. If he can do that without spending too much great.. if he can't then he had better get out the cheque book because 6-8th is not acceptable.

The only defence for not bringing in top quality players is if Jürgen can still achieve our expectations of a title challenge or at least top 4 with the players we have, if he can't then he will have failed imo.

As I have said repeatedly, I believe we will spend and I believe he will meet our expectations...so I am not worried at the moment. If it gets towards the end of August and we still haven't brought in the quality I think we need THEN I will start to worry. 

Hope you're right about the "we WILL bring in quality" S@int, if you are I'm in there with all the other positivos.

I want to see the rest of the squad develop as Lovren and Origi have done. Origi was a right off a disaster early on but whatever Klopp and his team did with him he looked like a real potential star so much so he kept Benteke on the bench, I fully expect us to be right in the mix and that starts with a win at Arsenal

Interesting pov OP and it very much could be true

however one thing I will say is that liverpool currently is trying to tie up klopp long term.  klopp is a winner and he has his own reputation to uphold. like mourinho or guardiola with their own clubs, klopp will ensure he has the resources for success else a manager like him will go elsewhere.  BR came in as a relatively unknown so his bargaining power to FSG is much lower and FSG was definitely more gun shy with transfers as we just went through the horrible transfers like carroll

I want to see the rest of the squad develop as Lovren and Origi have done. Origi was a right off a disaster early on but whatever Klopp and his team did with him he looked like a real potential star so much so he kept Benteke on the bench

Fair point Walt but don't you think that Lovren & Origi need to have the quality (and be the right fit) or the boss and his team wouldn't be able to "develop" them?

After all, you mentioned Benteke "on the bench" - why couldn't "Klopp and his team" work their magic there; if they are to be praised for Dejan did they fail with Christian?

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Anyhows, back to the question posed in the O.P...

I think the 'problem' lies in and the 'conflict' has arisen because some posters are looking at the issue in terms of Jürgen, his signings and his time here, whilst the O.P. clearly blames John W and his FSG boys for the "slow build".

Bear with me here.

If, for whatever reason, you insist in looking at the question only from the point at which Jürgen arrived then, naturally enough, one season and one window is anything but "slow" and yes... the cry to 'give it F***ing time' makes perfect sense.

If, however, you look at the question from the perspective of 'FSG... six years later; should we still be buying the slow build?' then... the question posed takes on a different complexion and is very valid.

For what it's worth and given the fact that Mick clearly blames FSG and not Jürgen for what appears (to him and many others btw) to be a long time without progress then; I agree - I too am totally fed up with the "slow building" [and the F***ing carpetbaggers]  .

That said; I understand that, with Jürgen's arrival, FSG may have changed tack and that we will see Jürgen able speed the process up with the higher quality, more experienced, players we were told he can attract so, again... I'll happily hold counsel 'til September... 'til then troops. 

I think its a bit too early for this type of OP since the transfer window hasnt shut. It seems that every year our season gets defined by which players we sign in relation to our rivals. Last season Leicester, Spurs and even Arsenal bought less players than us but they made top 3...thereby again showing that there isnt a difinitive relation between the amounts spent or volume of new faces brought in and success.

Anyway, my opinion is that regardless of what our biggest rivals are doing in the transfer market this year, we have traditionally been more successful playing against them (even with a supposedly inferior squad), than against the mid table and lower end clubs. This is where i want to see an improvement. If it means Jürgen gets his current crop set-up to be more resilient and get results from the mid-lower end teams, then i have no problem in missing out on the Ibrahimovic's or Xhakas, coz by beating these teams we would be in the top 4 no doubt.

The EPL is very competitive and what makes it so, isnt the big names at the top clubs, rather its the desire by the lesser known clubs to get stuck in and fight for the result. So while our team is currently not the most glamorous, i do believe we have a healthy group of talented players here and with the right mentality they can do alot better than last season.

Dont get me wrong, i would love a Kroos or Iniesta type signing for our Central midfield, coz quality players are always welcome, however i wouldnt write off our season if they didnt come.

It's insane to expect too much too soon,simple.
I'm hopeful we'll have a great season but I have no targets.
Next season there will be expectations & realistic targets I reckon.

The EPL is very competitive

Not at the top it's not... outside of that (mid table) maybe but not at the top - not historically anyhow.

Like all the top leagues [Spain, Italy, France & Germany], the Premier League title invariably goes to one of the big teams (or teams who spend the most, on top players, if you prefer). Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to you Ebieahi. Check it out for yourself buddy. 
 

Fair point about the top. It is expected that without taking legacy into account, the top 3-4 teams in each league has the ability to hold onto their best players for longer as opposed to the rest where u find the top prospect getting bought up (ala Suarez, Sterling, etc).
What makes the EPL competitive is that you cannot with certainty say that Man Utd or City even at full strength will win both fixtures against Middlesborough for example.

My point is that with our current squad, it would be unreasonable to head into a new season expecting a definite title challenge, however the top 4 is a possibility if we get our squad ready enough for the challenge against the mid-lower placed teams.
Its a cycle and how we build would be to reach top 4, hold onto our best players and add on some additional quality in order to sustain top 4 and push for title challenge.

So in answer to the OP, i dont see it as a "slow building job", we should definitely aim higher this season and i believe top 4 is within the grasp of the current crop of players with Jürgen at the helm.

It's an interesting point that we generally do pretty well against the top teams but less well against mid table or relegation ones. I've no idea if it's true or not, to work it out definitively would take a lot of time and intelligence to carry out some detailed analysis. Unfortunately I have neither time nor intelligence, nor can I be @rsed with detailed analysis. Given that, I'm going to go with it as a theory, I think it may well be true.

This though IMHO is why you need game changer players. When the Mancs had Ronaldo, we had Suarez, even Chelsea when Hazard could be bothered, it's gams which those players won against lesser teams which propelled them up the league. Hard work gets you so far, sometimes you need a bit of class and inspiration.

Its a sign of the times that no manager at a top club gets a season (never mind a season and three quarters) to 'build' any more.  Players don't stick around at clubs long enough to remember their place in the car park, and as for managers - gone in the blink of an eye.

No; Klopp has his methods and style of play, and he is known for developing players rather than buying success (and I back him in that) but if we're still in 8th place next May I reckon there'll be some knives out for him, regardless (though not from me). 

So while I instinctively favour the two- to three-season development route under JK, I don't think he'll get the chance (or keep his best players) to take that sort of time, and so going all out for the league title EVERY season is the only sensible choice for JK/LFC.  Just don't ask me to stake my house on it actually happening!