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      Ben Woodburn > PNE

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      racerx34
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      Re: Benjamin Woodburn Player Thread
      Reply #161: Sep 03, 2017 10:54:53 pm
      Being a Welsh footballer and a Welsh national are not the same thing. Now I have to go and provide a bunch of information with quotes.

      According to the laws set by UK government, people can acquire nationality from their parent. Mother or Father.  These laws are made in connected sovereign states. I will outline nationality and citizenship here.

      1) A National is automatically a citizen 2) Born outside the UK, if their parents are a national they are also a national. 3) Expats are still a national.

      The UK does not take into consideration grandparents nationality any more than next doors nationality or best friend nationality etc... it has to be a parent.
      The part of Ireland that is outside of the UK allows for people to get an Irish passport from Grandparents, but UK never had grandparent's citizenship passed down like this.

      Ben Woordburn has English parents, both of them. He lived in England all his life and was born in England.
      Liverpool scouted him early from his home town that is very close to the Welsh border.
      If Wales left the UK, Woodburn would probably need a visa to live in Wales but not England.
      How is he allowed to play for Wales then? Simply because FIFA have their own rules on who can represent what country that does not coincide with nationality or citizenship. FIFA rules takes precedence over local sovereign nationality laws.
      I will provide evidence then I expect this to be a closed matter.

      Football rules;

      Rules state that a player can represent the land of their birth, the land of either of their parents’ birth, or the birthplace of any one of their grandparents. This applies to all age-grades.

      http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpools-ben-woodburn-welsh-english-12253550


      One way people gain nationality.

      You might already be a British citizen based on where and when you were born, or your parents’ circumstances. Check if you’re a British citizen if you’re not sure.

      https://www.gov.uk/types-of-british-nationality/british-citizenship

      Grandparent is not a way. Since Wales and England are both part of the UK it is not a thing that will come to light, however consider the scenario Woodburn's grandparent was French, he would still be able to represent France without having any legal right to live there after Brexit.


      Ireland's 90's success was built on the Granny rule.

      Hakuna your tatas.
      Ribapuru
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      Re: Benjamin Woodburn Player Thread
      Reply #162: Sep 03, 2017 11:10:29 pm
      I'm no expert but I find this a very weird argument. As you say the rule you mentioned is a United Kingdom rule. My understanding is that legally there's no such thing as English or Welsh citizenship, just British.

      In this sense it becomes a matter of choice for the player, as he has connections with both countries, and under FIFA rules it is up to him. It is not because he's an English national or a Welsh national - he's a British national that under FIFA rules can play for both England or Welsh national teams.

      IF Wales left the UK, then the rules that would apply for gaining Welsh citizenship could be entirely different. I would guess they would very probably apply similar rules to the Irish, although at this point it is irrelevant as they are part of the UK.
      Can players play football for a team just for having a grandparent from that country? Yes
      Can players live in a country just based on having a grandparent from there? Most countries no.
      Players can represent a country and not be allowed to live there.
      If a Chinese man had a Welsh grandparent he could play for Wales too, that same person could even be refused domicile in UK.

      I would like FIFA to relax the binding thing. Woodburn should be given the right to change his mind in 5 or 10 years if he wanted too. Hopefully the rule will change.
      I have never seen a player as good as Woodburn at 17. If his rate of development continues like this, he will make Gareth Bale look like Ngog.
      « Last Edit: Sep 03, 2017 11:26:16 pm by Ribapuru »
      Diego LFC
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      Re: Benjamin Woodburn Player Thread
      Reply #163: Sep 03, 2017 11:37:47 pm
      Can players play football for a team just for having a grandparent from that country? Yes
      Can players live in a country just based on having a grandparent from there? Most countries no.
      Players can represent a country and not be allowed to live there.
      If a Chinese man had a Welsh grandparent he could play for Wales too, that same person could even be refused domicile in UK.

      You do realise your argument is wholly irrelevant as legally there's no such thing as a Welsh or English nationality? One could argue they are more like states than actual countries. Correct me if I'm wrong.

      I'm sorry to burst your national pride but you're only an English national in your own imagination - because you feel to be one - whilst you're legally a British national. Again, I'm not even from the UK myself, but I'd be surprised to find otherwise.

      Ben Woodburn is a British national that chose to represent Wales - because FIFA anachronistically recognise different associations from the UK - and he's in his right to do so. If that hurts your imagined national pride then so be it. Your considerations would only have any importance if Wales were to leave the UK, which is unlikely, and even then I very much doubt they'd set up a nationality criteria that left their international footballers out.
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: Benjamin Woodburn Player Thread
      Reply #164: Sep 03, 2017 11:40:53 pm
      Frankly international football bores the arse off me these days,largley irrelevant and an inconvenience,  major championships are good but the overall standard is lower than most club football
      Diego LFC
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      Re: Benjamin Woodburn Player Thread
      Reply #165: Sep 03, 2017 11:45:08 pm
      Frankly international football bores the arse off me these days,largley irrelevant and an inconvenience,  major championships are good but the overall standard is lower than most club football

      I only really care about major championships as well - but maybe that's because I'm a spoilt fan, with Brazil always qualifying (usually quite easily) for everything.

      My South American friends usually take the qualifiers very seriously, particularly with how much harder the Conmebol is, in contrast to playing against Andorra, Luxembourg or whatever crap that is. But Brazil only struggle once in a while, and usually make it in the end. So I only get even slightly nervous on international games when it's the World Cup.
      Ribapuru
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      Re: Benjamin Woodburn Player Thread
      Reply #166: Sep 03, 2017 11:56:52 pm
      You do realise your argument is wholly irrelevant as legally there's no such thing as a Welsh or English nationality? One could argue they are more like states than actual countries. Correct me if I'm wrong.

      I'm sorry to burst your national pride but you're only an English national in your own imagination - because you feel to be one - whilst you're legally a British national. Again, I'm not even from the UK myself, but I'd be surprised to find otherwise.

      Ben Woodburn is a British national that chose to represent Wales - because FIFA anachronistically recognise different associations from the UK - and he's in his right to do so. If that hurts your imagined national pride then so be it. Your considerations would only have any importance if Wales were to leave the UK, which is unlikely, and even then I very much doubt they'd set up a nationality criteria that left their international footballers out.
      nah you are way off. We are countries not states. People aren't free to pick and choose, it's the granny rule as racer called it. It exists in football. Please see my example of Chinese man with Welsh grandparent.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: Benjamin Woodburn Player Thread
      Reply #167: Sep 04, 2017 12:04:01 am
      nah you are way off. We are countries not states. People aren't free to pick and choose, it's the granny rule as racer called it. It exists in football. Please see my example of Chinese man with Welsh grandparent.

      Whether England is a country actually depends on which definition of the word you use. It's definitely not a country in the same way that Brazil is. Do you have any English citizen document? An English passport? If not then you're an English national only in your national identity. And identity is not just a matter of birth place.

      That imagined Chinese man is wholly irrelevant to Woodburn. You're just highlighting how the FIFA regulation works, doesn't mean your ramblings about Woodburn not being a Welsh national has any relevance whatsoever.
      vulcan_red
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      Re: Benjamin Woodburn Player Thread
      Reply #168: Sep 04, 2017 12:08:24 am
      So much heaped onto these kids, including the money, agents, expectation, celebrity. Woodburn and TAA look like grounded kids which could be the most important attribute. I think Woodburn chose wisely, opting for Wales. He won't be the next Rooney, Sterling whomever ... buried in hyperbole and then smashed to pieces under the weight of expectation.

      He looks a really good proposition though and so confident.
      crouchinho
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      Re: Benjamin Woodburn Player Thread
      Reply #169: Sep 04, 2017 01:08:04 am
      Scores a banger on his international debut and this is the discussion being had...? Really?

      Let the troll go. Stop feeding his F***ing sh*te.

      This kid is something special. He's a #10, to me. But capable of playing anywhere in an advanced position.
      Kopite78
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      Re: Benjamin Woodburn Player Thread
      Reply #170: Sep 04, 2017 07:18:03 am

      Even Wales? 🙄 
      💤💤💤💤💤💤💤

      heimdall
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      Re: Benjamin Woodburn Player Thread
      Reply #171: Sep 04, 2017 09:49:32 am
      Whether England is a country actually depends on which definition of the word you use. It's definitely not a country in the same way that Brazil is. Do you have any English citizen document? An English passport? If not then you're an English national only in your national identity. And identity is not just a matter of birth place.

      That imagined Chinese man is wholly irrelevant to Woodburn. You're just highlighting how the FIFA regulation works, doesn't mean your ramblings about Woodburn not being a Welsh national has any relevance whatsoever.

      The best way to think of this is probably as US states in that each state(country in the UK) has its own local laws, health authorities etc, but is still ruled by a Federal government, the UK, and all the citizens have British passports. This is even more true after the various devolutions of Wales and Scotland.
      In terms of what football team someone plays for who gives a sh*t, if Woodburn wants to play for Wales good luck to him, he has sod all chance of ever winning anything with them barring some flukish scenario, not that he has much more chance with England really!
      skamp
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      Re: Benjamin Woodburn Player Thread
      Reply #172: Sep 04, 2017 10:49:34 am
      yeah I made a grammar error. I will fix that along with where I put had instead of has.
      I think you'll find you made a "grammatical" error...
      « Last Edit: Sep 04, 2017 02:12:26 pm by skamp »
      Ribapuru
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      Re: Benjamin Woodburn Player Thread
      Reply #173: Sep 04, 2017 01:37:15 pm
      he has sod all chance of ever winning anything with them barring some flukish scenario, not that he has much more chance with England really!
      maybe now, but England are winning things at youth level...u20 world cup, u21 got far.. etc.. u19 won it too. We have a new golden generation ready to disappoint us. Woodburn can't change his mind now. Too late! He's  going to be like Suarez playing for Derby County.
      Kopite78
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      Re: Benjamin Woodburn Player Thread
      Reply #174: Sep 04, 2017 01:55:56 pm
      I think we could count Scousers who give a F**k about England and international football on one hand.

      I don't know one. It's when we sort weekends away and do stuff with the Mrs.
      hoganov
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      Re: Benjamin Woodburn Player Thread
      Reply #175: Sep 05, 2017 09:27:48 am
      I'm no expert but I find this a very weird argument. As you say the rule you mentioned is a United Kingdom rule. My understanding is that legally there's no such thing as English or Welsh citizenship, just British.

      In this sense it becomes a matter of choice for the player, as he has connections with both countries, and under FIFA rules it is up to him. It is not because he's an English national or a Welsh national - he's a British national that under FIFA rules can play for both England or Welsh national teams.

      IF Wales left the UK, then the rules that would apply for gaining Welsh citizenship could be entirely different. I would guess they would very probably apply similar rules to the Irish, although at this point it is irrelevant as they are part of the UK.

      Sorry if im wrong but you are not suggesting Ireland is part of the UK are you? Northern Ireland i presume you meant...
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Benjamin Woodburn Player Thread
      Reply #176: Sep 05, 2017 09:23:46 pm
      Welshburn <3 Lovely assist!!!!
      chats
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      Re: Benjamin Woodburn Player Thread
      Reply #177: Sep 05, 2017 09:24:01 pm
      At it again tonight, putting it on a plate for what will surely be the Wales winner.
      Ribapuru
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      Re: Benjamin Woodburn Player Thread
      Reply #178: Sep 05, 2017 09:26:04 pm
      It is obvious Woodburn is going to be the best player in the world. He has been better than Bale in every international game he played and he is only 17.

      He's on £5,000 a week and contract expires in 2019. I think Liverpool need to give him a better contract
      « Last Edit: Sep 05, 2017 09:30:15 pm by Ribapuru »
      trebor12
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      Re: Benjamin Woodburn Player Thread
      Reply #179: Sep 05, 2017 09:52:54 pm
      Nice assist from benny boy and gives Wales a great chance of qualifing.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: Benjamin Woodburn Player Thread
      Reply #180: Sep 05, 2017 09:58:31 pm
      Sorry if im wrong but you are not suggesting Ireland is part of the UK are you? Northern Ireland i presume you meant...

      No when I said "they are part of the UK" I meant Wales - hence it was irrelevant speculating which sort of nationality criteria they'd choose. I do believe it would likely include grandparents though, as in Ireland.
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: Benjamin Woodburn Player Thread
      Reply #181: Sep 05, 2017 10:00:17 pm
      It is obvious Woodburn is going to be the best player in the world. He has been better than Bale in every international game he played and he is only 17.

      He's on £5,000 a week and contract expires in 2019. I think Liverpool need to give him a better contract

      I am sure he will get a new contract soon
      fields of anny rd
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      Re: Benjamin Woodburn Player Thread
      Reply #182: Sep 05, 2017 10:11:28 pm
      It is obvious Woodburn is going to be the best player in the world.

      No pressure Benny.

      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: Benjamin Woodburn Player Thread
      Reply #183: Sep 05, 2017 10:12:45 pm

      Think rib has been on the fizzy sweets again

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