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      Georginio Wijnaldum (Liverpool > PSG)

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      leosc
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      Re: Georginio Wijnaldum Player Thread
      Reply #437: Jan 01, 2018 08:03:56 pm
      Not sure what is going on with him lately, to me he was the worst player on the pitch today.

      LondonRed83
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      Re: Georginio Wijnaldum Player Thread
      Reply #438: Jan 01, 2018 10:44:28 pm
      He played ok, not bad and not great. Too many 6/10s at the moment, needs to step up and make his mark.

      I have confidence that he can do it though as I think he’s a very classy player.
      Danzel
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      Re: Georginio Wijnaldum Player Thread
      Reply #439: Jan 02, 2018 02:37:26 am
      Tried watching him off the ball as Danzel noted and I’m still not seeing what he adds.

      Hard to see what a midfielder adds (certainly off the ball) when all the opposition does is bypass our midfield by playing longballs and trying to win the second ball (of which he did pick up quite a few). I have no problem at all in saying he does offer little in this type of games.

      Again what I did notice, positionally, was how he most of the time played as our most defensive midfielder with Can being given the go to roam around. Also what I said is that these days you'll rarely find him in front of the ball. He was almost always level or behind the ball today.

      I don't really like what Klopp has done with him and this new role, it limits him to much. Is it due to a lack of options to play in front of our defence that he is playing him there to keep the balance in the team?

      At PSV and to a lesser extent at Newcastle, he was very, very good infront of goal (look up some videos from his goals at PSV, he was pretty clinical), sadly enough that's a part of his game that he doesn't get to show in this role and when he does get in front of goal, he does indeed overthink it all. Strange, because I know he can do it.

      January 14th, City at Anfield. Given Henderson's injury, odds of him starting that one are pretty big. Hopefully he'll start and look at his work off the ball then.

      Scottbot
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      Re: Georginio Wijnaldum Player Thread
      Reply #440: Jan 02, 2018 01:57:38 pm
      I quite like Gini myself, I think he has been a solid purchase. As a player he is pretty decent at most things without really excelling at any one aspect.

      I think the issue most have with evaluating our midfielders is that the fireworks generally come from the players in front of them (Coutinho, Salah, Mane, Firmino) so we're kinda left searching for the 'impact' being made by players like Can, Gini, Henderson. Notice the biggest criticisms of players like Hendo or Gini tend to come WHEN the fab four have had a bit of an off-day. Instead of acknowledging that those lads haven't quite been on their game there's a good few fans who then turn to the deeper lying players and point the finger, vent their anger.

      I think Danzel hits the nail on the head when he talks about some of the unseen work our midfield get through, they are not really asked to do too much (in terms of getting and supplying goals) in Klopp's set-up. Get it, give it, keep it simple, press the ball in the middle 3rd, mark, track and tackle is about the sum of it. For most of the time they aren't really needed to make the hollywood pass when all that is needed is to find Coutinho in a pocket of space or to find Salah's feet in the corner etc.
      ConzS
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      Re: Georginio Wijnaldum Player Thread
      Reply #441: Jan 02, 2018 03:05:01 pm
      I think the issue most have with evaluating our midfielders is that the fireworks generally come from the players in front of them (Coutinho, Salah, Mane, Firmino) so we're kinda left searching for the 'impact' being made by players like Can, Gini, Henderson.
      I’m sorry mate but that’s a bit of a cop out for me. I think people here are smart enough to work out what they are looking for from a central midfielder and not to expect them to be contributing the same type of performance as Coutinho etc. I’m not expecting either of the 3 you have mentioned to pop up with goals and assists to match the fab 4.

      I personally struggle to see what Gini offers at all. I hear people talk about the work he does behind the scenes - what is that exactly? I’ve been critical of Hendo for his lack of technical ability but at least you can see what he does on the pitch - relentless energy and breaking up play. Can, for all his faults, is my pick of the 3. He’s prone to the occasional brain fart but he’s our most positive midfielder by far. His runs from deep come in handy when we are trying to break down stubborn defences - the free kick he won for our last minute goal yesterday being a prime example.

      Kopite78
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      Re: Georginio Wijnaldum Player Thread
      Reply #442: Jan 02, 2018 03:21:28 pm
      I think people here are smart enough to work out what they are looking for from a central midfielder

      But are they smart enough? Or frankly mind readers to know what a midfielders being asked to do by the manager to team instructions?

      Gini played basically as a ten at Newcastle or sometimes an 8

      Here he's asked to do something completely different. He's asked to play deeper, to take less touches of the ball and move it quickly

      It's easier to see what he does in the ground that's more difficult to see on tv.

      He is excellent at cutting  passing lanes  down,  things you cant see unless you're there.  He quickly moves the ball, he shuts space making it difficult for opposition to play through midfield.

      He's asked to play as the middle man in midfield and its more difficult to see what he does because it's not the important part of a holding mid or the exciting role of a ten.
      He's often the pass before the pass before the pass and because that's not that exciting it's difficult to praise but is so important.

      He does a job asked by his manager and is important to us

      One thing I've read is he hides... He really really doesn't. Go  the game and watch him closely and I dont think you'll  (or who is) will accuse him of hiding

      Players, especially in a Klopp system play specifically to managers will.. Gini does this
      It's the same as players having a go a full backs positions..  If Klopp didn't want them where they are they wouldn't play.

      Could he do more? Maybe in certain situations, but so could every player
      Salah, because of his impact and obvious quality could do better in certain situations in front of goal but because he's there so often he isn't really questioned. Gini gets forward less often and if he fucks that up they he gets criticised... but for what he does to the managers instructions, but those managers instructions are less glamerous he gets criticised

      Personally I think it shows his obvious qualities that he can transfer from one club to another, and a step up, and change role so well.

      An example of differences between tv and live was as recent as yesterday
      Adam Lallana on here in the match thread and after people said he looked lacking in fitness etc but good to see him back.
      At the game quite a few gave him mom
      It's a different view
      « Last Edit: Jan 02, 2018 03:25:48 pm by Kopite78 »
      Scottbot
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      Re: Georginio Wijnaldum Player Thread
      Reply #443: Jan 02, 2018 03:59:23 pm
      I’m sorry mate but that’s a bit of a cop out for me. I think people here are smart enough to work out what they are looking for from a central midfielder and not to expect them to be contributing the same type of performance as Coutinho etc. I’m not expecting either of the 3 you have mentioned to pop up with goals and assists to match the fab 4.

      I personally struggle to see what Gini offers at all. I hear people talk about the work he does behind the scenes - what is that exactly? I’ve been critical of Hendo for his lack of technical ability but at least you can see what he does on the pitch - relentless energy and breaking up play. Can, for all his faults, is my pick of the 3. He’s prone to the occasional brain fart but he’s our most positive midfielder by far. His runs from deep come in handy when we are trying to break down stubborn defences - the free kick he won for our last minute goal yesterday being a prime example.



      Kopite78 (above) answers this far more eloquently than I could. I don't rate any of our midfielders especially highly, I've said many times that they are all solid, no-nonsense 7/10 performers who have the occasional excellent game as well as a good few where you would like to see more of them but I think that Gini is probably the one I rate the highest. Can maybe does more for the highlight reel like the overhead kick at Watford or the run to win the free kick yesterday but those moments are fairly rare and I still find him to be rather slow and cumbersome, often too slow to get to the ball or to move it on in games where the opposition are pressing. In that sense a player like Gini (who is more mobile and gets about the pitch) are important if Can is on the pitch.

      Hopefully with Keita we will be getting a bonafide talent in the middle of the park because I think that's what we lack at the moment.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Georginio Wijnaldum Player Thread
      Reply #444: Jan 02, 2018 04:01:23 pm


      Here he's asked to do something completely different. He's asked to play deeper, to take less touches of the ball and move it quickly

      It's easier to see what he does in the ground that's more difficult to see on tv.

      He is excellent at cutting  passing lanes  down,  things you cant see unless you're there.  He quickly moves the ball, he shuts space making it difficult for opposition to play through midfield.



      Interesting as the stats all show Gini in fact plays less forward passes than Henderson or Can.
      Made less key passes than the other two
      Less chances created than the other two

      So if he is being asked to do what you are saying he is in effect doing less than our deepest lying midfielders.

      Being at the ground or watching on the TV will not change the facts.

      In my opinion he is under performing.

      Kopite78
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      Re: Georginio Wijnaldum Player Thread
      Reply #445: Jan 02, 2018 04:07:54 pm
      Interesting as the stats all show Gini in fact plays less forward passes than Henderson or Can.
      Made less key passes than the other two
      Less chances created than the other two

      So if he is being asked to do what you are saying he is in effect doing less than our deepest lying midfielders.



      Did you read my post?

      I said he often plays the pass before the pass before the pass. He moves the ball quickly with little fuss to the nearest player or the best option on, not dwelling on the ball or getting caught with it.
      That may not create chances.. or be always forward

      Hence he wont really show on chances created and any other stats

      He stops us being played through by cutting off passing lanes. He's brilliant at it.. but there's no stat for that.

      Could we upgrade? Probably.
      Personally I can't wait for Keita because I think if any it's Gini's role that will be most at threat.

      My whole point being is players play to instruction. Gini  as well and if thats not glamerous enough for some that's on the manager, but our manager is insistent that every tiny role plays a part in making the system work. With that not everyone is going to have a glamerous role within it and will be asked to do simple things or unseen things

      Klopp loves him, that tells me he is doing just as he is asked and doing it well
      shabbadoo
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      Re: Georginio Wijnaldum Player Thread
      Reply #446: Jan 02, 2018 04:08:49 pm
      We underestimate his importance to the team, not the glamour player like the fab 4 but one that goes unnoticed with some important work.

      I like him....  :gt-happyup:
      ConzS
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      Re: Georginio Wijnaldum Player Thread
      Reply #447: Jan 02, 2018 04:10:44 pm
      Interesting as the stats all show Gini in fact plays less forward passes than Henderson or Can.
      Made less key passes than the other two
      Less chances created than the other two

      So if he is being asked to do what you are saying he is in effect doing less than our deepest lying midfielders.

      Being at the ground or watching on the TV will not change the facts.

      In my opinion he is under performing.
      Yeah but don’t let facts get in the way.

      It’s an unusual counter argument that, if we judge a player not to be having an effect on the game, it is because of the way the manager is asking him to play. Nobody knows what he is asking individually of the players, other than what he tells us, so it’s useless speculating.

      And the patronising speel about being at the game, give me a break.
      Kopite78
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      Re: Georginio Wijnaldum Player Thread
      Reply #448: Jan 02, 2018 04:13:46 pm
      Yeah but don’t let facts get in the way.

      It’s an unusual counter argument that, if we judge a player not to be having an effect on the game, it is because of the way the manager is asking him to play. Nobody knows what he is asking individually of the players, other than what he tells us, so it’s useless speculating.

      And the patronising speel about being at the game, give me a break.

      It wasn't meant to be patronising so i apologise if you felt it was.

      But you get a different view at the game to what the cameras allow you to see on tv.

      But as for being patronising.

      I didn't say he doesnt have an effect on the game. You did. I think he does have an effect on our system and system is key for Klopp.

      Anyway i didn't reply to get into an argument, I thought you would like a football discussion

      Soz like

      You dont rate him, that's fine. I was just trying to offer an alternative view
      Danzel
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      Re: Georginio Wijnaldum Player Thread
      Reply #449: Jan 02, 2018 05:05:46 pm
      But are they smart enough? Or frankly mind readers to know what a midfielders being asked to do by the manager to team instructions?

      Gini played basically as a ten at Newcastle or sometimes an 8

      Here he's asked to do something completely different. He's asked to play deeper, to take less touches of the ball and move it quickly

      It's easier to see what he does in the ground that's more difficult to see on tv.

      He is excellent at cutting  passing lanes  down,  things you cant see unless you're there.  He quickly moves the ball, he shuts space making it difficult for opposition to play through midfield.

      He's asked to play as the middle man in midfield and its more difficult to see what he does because it's not the important part of a holding mid or the exciting role of a ten.
      He's often the pass before the pass before the pass and because that's not that exciting it's difficult to praise but is so important.

      He does a job asked by his manager and is important to us

      One thing I've read is he hides... He really really doesn't. Go  the game and watch him closely and I dont think you'll  (or who is) will accuse him of hiding

      Players, especially in a Klopp system play specifically to managers will.. Gini does this
      It's the same as players having a go a full backs positions..  If Klopp didn't want them where they are they wouldn't play.

      Could he do more? Maybe in certain situations, but so could every player
      Salah, because of his impact and obvious quality could do better in certain situations in front of goal but because he's there so often he isn't really questioned. Gini gets forward less often and if he fucks that up they he gets criticised... but for what he does to the managers instructions, but those managers instructions are less glamerous he gets criticised

      Personally I think it shows his obvious qualities that he can transfer from one club to another, and a step up, and change role so well.

      An example of differences between tv and live was as recent as yesterday
      Adam Lallana on here in the match thread and after people said he looked lacking in fitness etc but good to see him back.
      At the game quite a few gave him mom
      It's a different view

      Praise the lord, someone who sees what I see. Thought I was starting to make things up or see things that aren't there. To me Wijnaldum is the glue that keeps everything together in the middle. He is constantly repositioning himself to shut down space, cut off passing lanes, preventing us getting played through, ... And as you say, he's brilliant at it and sadly enough it's something that doesn't show in the post game statistics.

      Even HammansTheMan, one of the most critical posters on these forums, says the same and he is also a regular at our games. He is right in saying Wijnaldum may be a bit inconsistent at times, but he's also right in saying that the majority of his work goes unnoticed and consists of allowing our team to keep its shape, cutting off the passing lanes and shutting down space.

      Yeah but don’t let facts get in the way.

      It’s an unusual counter argument that, if we judge a player not to be having an effect on the game, it is because of the way the manager is asking him to play. Nobody knows what he is asking individually of the players, other than what he tells us, so it’s useless speculating.

      And the patronising speel about being at the game, give me a break.

      It's not useless speculating if you actually watch the game and look at the bigger picture rather than just keeping your eyes focused on the ball and the player who has it. Then yes, you won't have a clue what a player like Wijnaldum offers in our system. What Kopite is trying to say is that on television you rarely get a full view of the pitch and all the players' positions. If you don't have that, you don't see how Wijnaldum positions himself in relation to the other players' positions. Nothing to do with being patronising and everything to do with having more information to assess what a player offers to the team.

      No one is saying that Wijnaldum is this irreplaceable, worldclass player. What we are saying is that in his role, he's very important to how we play and that he's a good player being asked to play a very specific role. Against Leicester he didn't start. Go back to the live match thread of that game and tell me what people's comments were on our midfield. It was sh*te. No coincidence that it was when Wijnaldum was being rested and had it not been for two pieces of individual brilliance by Salah, we would again have dropped points in a game Wijnaldum didn't start in.

      You want facts? Look at our record without him in the team. Another fact? Which midfielder has played the most minutes since the start of last season? Yes indeed, Wijnaldum. Who almost always starts when 100% fit? I'll tell you one thing, it's not Henderson, not Can and even not Lallana, it's Wijnaldum. Talk about injuries all you want, at least Wijnaldum is reliable and always fit.

      To me he is head and shoulders above Henderson and Can in almost every aspect of the game. You say Can makes these runs to break the opposition's lines. Who do you think picks up the pieces when Can inevitably loses the ball again? Who takes over his position? Yes, Wijnaldum. Can is tactically probably one of the worst players on the pitch.

      Could we upgrade? Probably.
      Personally I can't wait for Keita because I think if any it's Gini's role that will be most at threat.

      That's indeed going to be very interesting. As of now I have no clue how Klopp is going to play next season. Yesterday we again saw (I think) a 4-2-3-1. Of our current crop of midfielders, only Wijnaldum and to a lesser extent Henderson (Can is as good as gone) are able to play in that two man midfield.

      Will we perhaps see a Wijnaldum - Keita combination? Or is it why we're looking at a player like Goretzka to play alongside Keita in a two?

      Or do we play a midfield three again? Then we will only have the one #6 in Henderson. Will we see Keita there with Wijnaldum and Lallana in the more advanced roles?
      « Last Edit: Jan 02, 2018 05:12:55 pm by Danzel »
      FL Red
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      Re: Georginio Wijnaldum Player Thread
      Reply #450: Jan 02, 2018 05:10:54 pm
      Kudos to K78 and Danz for not only the footballing lesson (for me at least) but also for being able to plainly explain the reasoning behind their opinions on Gini. It's good for discussion and a welcome respite from some of the other "debates" that happen on this site which usually devolve into petty arguing. Cheers fellas.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Georginio Wijnaldum Player Thread
      Reply #451: Jan 02, 2018 06:01:23 pm
      Did you read my post?

      I said he often plays the pass before the pass before the pass. He moves the ball quickly with little fuss to the nearest player or the best option on, not dwelling on the ball or getting caught with it.
      That may not create chances.. or be always forward

      Hence he wont really show on chances created and any other stats

      He stops us being played through by cutting off passing lanes. He's brilliant at it.. but there's no stat for that.

      Could we upgrade? Probably.
      Personally I can't wait for Keita because I think if any it's Gini's role that will be most at threat.

      My whole point being is players play to instruction. Gini  as well and if thats not glamerous enough for some that's on the manager, but our manager is insistent that every tiny role plays a part in making the system work. With that not everyone is going to have a glamerous role within it and will be asked to do simple things or unseen things

      Klopp loves him, that tells me he is doing just as he is asked and doing it well

      He cuts off cutting lanes? Come on mate you're better than that.
      That is the minimum for any midfielder.
      Do you really think against the likes of Burnley that would be the sole reason he was picked?

      And the manager likes him is a poor excuse as the manager also keeps picking Migs.
      There would not be much point debating if it comes down to the manager likes him!

      Personally I think he is a good player but seems to be in a bit of a slump.

      I would imagine with Keita coming next season Gini will be seeing quite a bit of the bench.

      bmck
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      Re: Georginio Wijnaldum Player Thread
      Reply #452: Jan 14, 2018 06:31:11 pm
      Thought he did really well today.
      Lots of energy, ran his guts out.
      Tackled and harried, and when he had a chance, brought the ball forward well too.
      Couple of times put too much on a thro ball, but overall, well done today Gini.
      Dadorious
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      Re: Georginio Wijnaldum Player Thread
      Reply #453: Jan 14, 2018 11:01:24 pm
      Was excellent broke up play brilliantly all night and ran his socks off!
      Scotia
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      Re: Georginio Wijnaldum Player Thread
      Reply #454: Jan 14, 2018 11:02:36 pm
      Outstanding. Grossly underrated by our fans.
      Brian78
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      Re: Georginio Wijnaldum Player Thread
      Reply #455: Jan 14, 2018 11:11:44 pm
      Outstanding. Grossly underrated by our fans.

      Does he owe us consistency?
      Scotia
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      Re: Georginio Wijnaldum Player Thread
      Reply #456: Jan 14, 2018 11:15:58 pm

      Kinda my point B78 mate. I think the role he plays is quite self sacrificing.

      His passing can be patchy I’d agree......but he does so much linking and harassing every game.

      I just think we’re more cohesive forward and back with him in.
      Roddenberry
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      Re: Georginio Wijnaldum Player Thread
      Reply #457: Jan 14, 2018 11:19:39 pm
      He's like Lucas, only he plays 20yds further up the pitch and his passing isn't as good.
      shabbadoo
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      Re: Georginio Wijnaldum Player Thread
      Reply #458: Jan 14, 2018 11:19:41 pm
      We underestimate his importance to the team, not the glamour player like the fab 4 but one that goes unnoticed with some important work.

      I like him....  :gt-happyup:

      :)
      FL Red
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      Re: Georginio Wijnaldum Player Thread
      Reply #459: Jan 14, 2018 11:31:07 pm
      Really great game from him today, he was relentless today and while he fluffed a coupl of passes in the final third, his reading of the game and distribution was awesome.

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