Georginio Wijnaldum (Liverpool > PSG)

We are a better team with better balance when he plays.

I love how fit he is, hardly gets injured (just like Kuyt in that respect, must be a Dutch thing) and is still running at 100% in 90+.

Another top signing by Klopp.

His energy and passing today were brilliant

I thought he was good. But he tried to hold up the ball and lost it at least three times that i can recall. He missed another three or four chances to make a pass in to space. He and Can allowed too much space between the lines, as well.

A solid 7/10.

Our Dr Jekyll / Mr. Hyde. When he is on he is a absolute menace in the MF. When he is off u won’t even know where he is. Need this kind of performance every game from him. If we get it skies the limit with the talent around him

Can anyone find a stat that shows our PPG when he starts vs our PPG when he doesn't?  He reminds me of Makelele -- unspectacular, but incredibly effective.

These are the sort of games suited to Gini when there is a arm wrestle in midfield.

When we have the bulk of possession he is not so good.

Hard to believe he was an attacking midfielder as he seems to have zero composure in front of goal.

He was very solid, he needs to be consistent!

Really great game from him today, he was relentless today and while he fluffed a coupl of passes in the final third, his reading of the game and distribution was awesome.

His reading of the game is probably the best in our squad and his passing is always top notch and very clean. It's in games like these he really shines. He has never disappointed me in a single game against a big team, he has always been amongst the top performers and yesterday was no different.

Our Dr Jekyll / Mr. Hyde. When he is on he is a absolute menace in the MF. When he is off u won’t even know where he is. Need this kind of performance every game from him. If we get it skies the limit with the talent around him

That's the thing with people asking for 'consistency'. In my opinion he does consistently deliver good performances. The thing is that it's impossible for him to deliver this kind of performances because the vast majority of teams don't allow us to play the way City allowed us to play yesterday. If for example we'd play against City, Arsenal and Spurs every week, I'm 100% sure he'd deliver this kind of brilliant performances every single game. You can't however expect him to deliver this kind of performance when what the opposition team does is limit our play, of which he is a very big part in high tempo, transition games.

The other thing is that when we play teams that sit deep, he has actually been our most defensive midfielder and that goes back to pre-season. Those who watched our Asian tour might remember, but that's where Wijnaldum was actually tried as our #6 in the game against Palace I think (could be Leicester). I'm not sure I see him as a longterm option at #6, but he has the intelligence, positional awareness, passing, reading of the game, ... To play there in certain games. He allows Can to play a bit higher and takes up the defensive responsiblities that come with it. He just gets on with it, no matter where he has to play and at the end he always has this huge smile on his face.

These are the sort of games suited to Gini when there is a arm wrestle in midfield.

When we have the bulk of possession he is not so good.

Hard to believe he was an attacking midfielder as he seems to have zero composure in front of goal.

Yes it's strange, he was deadly in front of goal at PSV and Newcastle. He has been playing further back for quite some time now, perhaps just lost a bit of confidence in his attacking ability because he doesn't get into these positions very often anymore? When he has to finish instinctively he looks better, it's when he has time to think he tends to struggle.

Anyway, great player and Klopp obviously loves him to bits. He can put him anywhere on the pitch and he'll deliver, even at LCB in a back three  Ok he didn't look all that good there, I'll give you that, haha.

Can anyone find a stat that shows our PPG when he starts vs our PPG when he doesn't?  He reminds me of Makelele -- unspectacular, but incredibly effective.

Not entirely sure, but I think it's at 1.44 PPG when he doesn't play / start in the league. 3 wins, 4 draws, 2 losses. 13 points from 9 games. No idea what it's at with him, but seeing as we've been averaging about 2 PPG since Klopp is here, I'd say it's better to have him start than not.

Not entirely sure, but I think it's at 1.44 PPG when he doesn't play / start in the league. 3 wins, 4 draws, 2 losses. 13 points from 9 games. No idea what it's at with him, but seeing as we've been averaging about 2 PPG since Klopp is here, I'd say it's better to have him start than not.

Cheers mate!  We currently have 47 points from 23 games.  So, if it's 13 points from 9 games that he hasn't started, then that means we have accumulated 34 points from the other 14 games he has started -- average of 2.42 per game.  I can't validate your numbers (too much time required to sift through old match reports), but assuming they are accurate, that is a staggering statistic!! 

Gini has been one of my favorite players since he signed.  He does the little things that often go unnoticed on highlight reels and Match of the Day, but are critical to the functionality and balance of the team. 

Cheers mate!  We currently have 47 points from 23 games.  So, if it's 13 points from 9 games that he hasn't started, then that means we have accumulated 34 points from the other 14 games he has started -- average of 2.42 per game.  I can't validate your numbers (too much time required to sift through old match reports), but assuming they are accurate, that is a staggering statistic!! 

Gini has been one of my favorite players since he signed.  He does the little things that often go unnoticed on highlight reels and Match of the Day, but are critical to the functionality and balance of the team.

I did some research again and completely redid it because I mixed up numbers from when he didn't play at all and when he was used as a substitute. He's rarely injured / rested. These are the full statistics (PL only):



Easy summary:

He starts: PPG: 2.12 GF: 2.22 GA: 1.06
He plays (start and sub): PPG: 2.14 GF: 2.30 GA: 1.11
He does not start (subs included): PPG: 1.55 GF: 1.91 GA: 1.55
He doesn't play at all: PPG: 0.60 GF: 0.60 GA: 1.60

So far we haven't won a league game in which he hasn't played.
People can do with these numbers what they want of course, but there does seem to be a big difference to our PPG in games he doesn't start and in games he does start.

He's one of my favourite players too and as you say, he's the one that gives us balance.

I did some research again and completely redid it because I mixed up numbers from when he didn't play at all and when he was used as a substitute. He's rarely injured / rested. These are the full statistics (PL only):



Easy summary:

He starts: PPG: 2.12 GF: 2.22 GA: 1.06
He plays (start and sub): PPG: 2.14 GF: 2.30 GA: 1.11
He does not start (subs included): PPG: 1.55 GF: 1.91 GA: 1.55
He doesn't play at all: PPG: 0.60 GF: 0.60 GA: 1.60

So far we haven't won a league game in which he hasn't played.
People can do with these numbers what they want of course, but there does seem to be a big difference to our PPG in games he doesn't start and in games he does start.

He's one of my favourite players too and as you say, he's the one that gives us balance.

Great work. Some people seem to expect midfielders to do everything, especially create and score, but without a Gini and/or to some extent a Hendo, our attack-minded players don't get the ball.

I've said it before, he's like Lucas, just playing 20yards higher up, better legs, poorer passing. Very useful.

I've said it before, he's like Lucas, just playing 20yards higher up, better legs, poorer passing. Very useful.

When you are passing 20yrd higher up, you are facing more pressing and you won't have the same successful rate as you are passing at the back.  Anyway, I think he is indispensable in Klopp's games.

I did some research again and completely redid it because I mixed up numbers from when he didn't play at all and when he was used as a substitute. He's rarely injured / rested. These are the full statistics (PL only):



Easy summary:

He starts: PPG: 2.12 GF: 2.22 GA: 1.06
He plays (start and sub): PPG: 2.14 GF: 2.30 GA: 1.11
He does not start (subs included): PPG: 1.55 GF: 1.91 GA: 1.55
He doesn't play at all: PPG: 0.60 GF: 0.60 GA: 1.60

So far we haven't won a league game in which he hasn't played.
People can do with these numbers what they want of course, but there does seem to be a big difference to our PPG in games he doesn't start and in games he does start.

He's one of my favourite players too and as you say, he's the one that gives us balance.

Not seen this measure Balance on the Opta site, you will need to explain to me what it means 

Gini is not doing or offering any more than Hendo does, yet one gets slated and the other is the second coming of Makelele/Pirlo 

Gini is the most risk averse passer out of all our midfielders!

He played well the other day but to suggest he has anything more than average in most of the other games is just plain disingenuous, I mean how many assists has he got, key passes, blocks, interceptions etc so to suggest we score more and concede less because he plays........meh

Not seen this measure Balance on the Opta site, you will need to explain to me what it means 

Gini is not doing or offering any more than Hendo does, yet one gets slated and the other is the second coming of Makelele/Pirlo 

Gini is the most risk averse passer out of all our midfielders!

He played well the other day but to suggest he has anything more than average in most of the other games is just plain disingenuous, I mean how many assists has he got, key passes, blocks, interceptions etc so to suggest we score more and concede less because he plays........meh

Henderson plays a completely different role and only plays when we play a 4-3-3 where he is the one who has to start of the attacks from his deep position. When Wijnaldum plays in a three, he mainly plays as the left #8 (earlier in the season he played the right #8 to help cover for Trent / Gomez when they were struggling) or when we play a 4-4-2 / 4-2-3-1 he is the more defensive midfielder next to Can. In neither of these positions is he the one tasked with taking 'risky' passes. There is nothing wrong with 'risk averse' passing in certain situations.

I never said he was the second coming of Makelele or Pirlo, all I always say is that he's an integral part of the way we play and that he is very important. If you want to put down the fact that we score more, concede less and win more when he is in the side to mere coincidence, that's your choice. Wasn't suggesting we score more and concede less when he plays. When I was putting it together I just thought I'd add that in too to see if there would be a difference and it looks like there is.

The fact that you want to put his performances down to assists / key passes / interceptions / blocks / ... Shows that you don't know how our pressing works in general and how and with who we set up our pressing traps. Wijnaldum is almost always part of the pressing unit but he is not the one tasked with ultimately winning back the ball. Those players are almost always Firmino, Can, Lallana and more recently Chamberlain. Look up their statistics and you will see the difference. They win the ball back, they intercept, Wijnaldum picks up second balls and sets up the attacking move when it's on or keeps it in the team when it isn't. Of course that doesn't show in his post game statistics and your "blocks, interceptions, key passes".

Look back to some of the goals we scored against City. Look who picks up the second ball after the press, look who beats the press twice by his pass that ultimately leads to Firmino scoring and Salah scoring. Yes, Wijnaldum. But of course, again, there are no statistics on this, yet it is there for everyone to see.

https://vimeo.com/251122907

I posted this in the "Tactics Geeks Unite"-thread too. That's an example of how we press. Look at his role in the press, look who is tasked with winning back the ball. Notice that whenever Can charges forward to press Fernandinho, it's always Wijnaldum picking up the position. It's always him closing down the space and talking to the players around him. It's him forcing the City players to play into certain areas (wide areas) for Can and Chamberlain to win back the ball. That's tactical intelligence. He is always in the right position.

Henderson plays a completely different role and only plays when we play a 4-3-3 where he is the one who has to start of the attacks from his deep position. When Wijnaldum plays in a three, he mainly plays as the left #8 (earlier in the season he played the right #8 to help cover for Trent / Gomez when they were struggling) or when we play a 4-4-2 / 4-2-3-1 he is the more defensive midfielder next to Can. In neither of these positions is he the one tasked with taking 'risky' passes. There is nothing wrong with 'risk averse' passing in certain situations.

I never said he was the second coming of Makelele or Pirlo, all I always say is that he's an integral part of the way we play and that he is very important. If you want to put down the fact that we score more, concede less and win more when he is in the side to mere coincidence, that's your choice. Wasn't suggesting we score more and concede less when he plays. When I was putting it together I just thought I'd add that in too to see if there would be a difference and it looks like there is.

The fact that you want to put his performances down to assists / key passes / interceptions / blocks / ... Shows that you don't know how our pressing works in general and how and with who we set up our pressing traps. Wijnaldum is almost always part of the pressing unit but he is not the one tasked with ultimately winning back the ball. Those players are almost always Firmino, Can, Lallana and more recently Chamberlain. Look up their statistics and you will see the difference. They win the ball back, they intercept, Wijnaldum picks up second balls and sets up the attacking move when it's on or keeps it in the team when it isn't. Of course that doesn't show in his post game statistics and your "blocks, interceptions, key passes".

Look back to some of the goals we scored against City. Look who picks up the second ball after the press, look who beats the press twice by his pass that ultimately leads to Firmino scoring and Salah scoring. Yes, Wijnaldum. But of course, again, there are no statistics on this, yet it is there for everyone to see.

https://vimeo.com/251122907

I posted this in the "Tactics Geeks Unite"-thread too. That's an example of how we press. Look at his role in the press, look who is tasked with winning back the ball. Notice that whenever Can charges forward to press Fernandinho, it's always Wijnaldum picking up the position. It's always him closing down the space and talking to the players around him. It's him forcing the City players to play into certain areas (wide areas) for Can and Chamberlain to win back the ball. That's tactical intelligence. He is always in the right position.

Yeah yeah that's fine like I said he played great the other day but we play the likes of Man City probably 10 games max a season, that's being generous.

So back to my original point what Balance does Gini bring to the table against the dross which is the majority of the games we play seeing as though passing forward, assists, key passes, blocks, interceptions etc are not important in your opinion   

BTW there won't be much 2nd balls to be won as we usually have 65%+ possession.

Love it the way posters go that extra mile to justify excuses for they're favourite player 

Yeah yeah that's fine like I said he played great the other day but we play the likes of Man City probably 10 games max a season, that's being generous.

So back to my original point what Balance does Gini bring to the table against the dross which is the majority of the games we play seeing as though passing forward, assists, key passes, blocks, interceptions etc are not important in your opinion   

BTW there won't be much 2nd balls to be won as we usually have 65%+ possession.

Love it the way posters go that extra mile to justify excuses for they're favourite player 

Come off it lad, he has put forward a fair, insightful (and correct IMO) insight in why he thinks he is integral to our system.

Your the one coming across a bellend by just being dismissive.

To answer your question, Gini is not the midfielder to break down the 'dross' teams, that should be what Hendo, Can, Lallana do. Gini's role is what Lucas should of been, if he hadn't of been made of straw and ran faster than my nan.

He doesn't have the interception, blocks stats on his side because the system doesn't allow the opposition to play those decisive plays. If you look at our stats, i'm 99% confident that the players who get the most blocks, inter's etc, are the full backs, because we close down the channels as a team to play through us.

I feel that if we had a better GK, we would be MUCH closer to Man City overall, as we simply don't allow teams to get through us, and Gini as part of the midfield is a big part of that.

Yeah yeah that's fine like I said he played great the other day but we play the likes of Man City probably 10 games max a season, that's being generous.

So back to my original point what Balance does Gini bring to the table against the dross which is the majority of the games we play seeing as though passing forward, assists, key passes, blocks, interceptions etc are not important in your opinion   

BTW there won't be much 2nd balls to be won as we usually have 65%+ possession.

Love it the way posters go that extra mile to justify excuses for they're favourite player 

Against the 'dross' as you call it this season, we've mainly lined up in a 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1. Wijnaldum in these formations was usually played as our most defensive midfielder with Can being allowed to move forward. Check the statistics, it's Can who is putting up the key passes in the final third while Wijnaldum is tasked with shielding the defence. You can't get keypasses when you're playing that role.

The way we play, none of our midfielders put up big numbers in terms of interceptions and blocks because that's not how our midfielders are asked to play and how our press works. What you will see is that the players that are tasked with winning back the ball put up high tackle numbers (Can, Firmino, ...) There's your explanation. Wijnaldum and to a lesser extent Can allow our forwards and FBs to play their game while he takes over of the defensive side of things when we're playing 'dross' and that's the balance I speak about.

When we play better sides we usually line up in a 4-3-3 and lord behold, then he does put up good numbers for key passes (better than Can who is the most defensive midfielder in this set-up). So again, checks out.

Depending on the type of opposition we play, his role changes drastically from a box-to-box #8 in big games to a defensive midfielder in games against lesser opposition.

You mean just like I go the extra mile to defend almost all Liverpool players? Wijnaldum is one of my favourite players, yes, just like he is clearly one of Klopp's favourites, whether you like it or not. I went the extra mile yesterday for Karius, I went the extra mile at the start of the season for Moreno, I went the extra mile during the summer to defend Matip, Lovren and Klavan. This has nothing to do with me making excuses for one of my favourite players and everything with your inability to see what he offers to our team. I can assure you, none of the above are 'my favourite players'.

Perhaps rather than dismissing everything I say to prove that he IS important, maybe you should prove me different? You just asking me to explain how he offers balance and questioning his interceptions, blocks and key passes numbers isn't exactly putting forward a case to say he offers f**k all.

Against the 'dross' as you call it this season, we've mainly lined up in a 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1. Wijnaldum in these formations was usually played as our most defensive midfielder with Can being allowed to move forward. Check the statistics, it's Can who is putting up the key passes in the final third while Wijnaldum is tasked with shielding the defence. You can't get keypasses when you're playing that role.

The way we play, none of our midfielders put up big numbers in terms of interceptions and blocks because that's not how our midfielders are asked to play and how our press works. What you will see is that the players that are tasked with winning back the ball put up high tackle numbers (Can, Firmino, ...) There's your explanation. Wijnaldum and to a lesser extent Can allow our forwards and FBs to play their game while he takes over of the defensive side of things when we're playing 'dross' and that's the balance I speak about.

When we play better sides we usually line up in a 4-3-3 and lord behold, then he does put up good numbers for key passes (better than Can who is the most defensive midfielder in this set-up). So again, checks out.

Depending on the type of opposition we play, his role changes drastically from a box-to-box #8 in big games to a defensive midfielder in games against lesser opposition.

You mean just like I go the extra mile to defend almost all Liverpool players? Wijnaldum is one of my favourite players, yes, just like he is clearly one of Klopp's favourites, whether you like it or not. I went the extra mile yesterday for Karius, I went the extra mile at the start of the season for Moreno, I went the extra mile during the summer to defend Matip, Lovren and Klavan. This has nothing to do with me making excuses for one of my favourite players and everything with your inability to see what he offers to our team. I can assure you, none of the above are 'my favourite players'.

Perhaps rather than dismissing everything I say to prove that he IS important, maybe you should prove me different? You just asking me to explain how he offers balance and questioning his interceptions, blocks and key passes numbers isn't exactly putting forward a case to say he offers f**k all.

no need to get passive aggressive mate just having a debate, you see the point is the variables you are throwing back at me where apparently Gini is excelling is exactly what Can and Hendo are doing.
Gini does not really excel in anything apart from you like him!
 
I admit he is great when we need a midfield battle, but for the majority of games against the dross you can have any other midfielder there for the amount of effect Gini is having.

BTW Gini has not been starting as our most defensive midfielder it's just that Can is more proactive in carrying the ball forward whereas Gini is happy to pass on responsibility.

Not seen this measure Balance on the Opta site, you will need to explain to me what it means 

Gini is not doing or offering any more than Hendo does, yet one gets slated and the other is the second coming of Makelele/Pirlo 

Gini is the most risk averse passer out of all our midfielders!

He played well the other day but to suggest he has anything more than average in most of the other games is just plain disingenuous, I mean how many assists has he got, key passes, blocks, interceptions etc so to suggest we score more and concede less because he plays........meh

We consistently pick up more points when he starts than when he doesn't.  That's really the only stat that matters. 

He's similar to Makelele in another way -- people slate him for not contributing enough goals, assists, key passes, etc.... but you don't realize how important he is until he's out of the team.  😎

We consistently pick up more points when he starts than when he doesn't.  That's really the only stat that matters. 

He's similar to Makelele in another way -- people slate him for not contributing enough goals, assists, key passes, etc.... but you don't realize how important he is until he's out of the team.  😎

Hilarious he is not a DM and contrary to belief our midfielders are asked to contribute, we don't play with two sitting midfielders!

Hilarious he is not a DM and contrary to belief our midfielders are asked to contribute, we don't play with two sitting midfielders!

So, we should drop him for someone who contributes more goals/assists at the expense of our point accumulation   No thanks mate, I'll take the points even if it means having a "boring" player who "doesn't contribute"

So, we should drop him for someone who contributes more goals/assists at the expense of our point accumulation   No thanks mate, I'll take the points even if it means having a "boring" player who "doesn't contribute"

you will be one of the first ones complaining when we have no impact against a bus parking team with Gini doing his disappearing act, maybe you are right "boring" draws or even losses are just fine 

Let's see if Gini keeps his place with the arrival of Keita because at the moment Gini has the luxury that his only competition is Lallana returning back from a long lay off and Milner!! enough said with Jimmy as a starter