Klopp or the players?

Bit out of order all this. It's normally me who's got the "agenda", what have I done to get forgotten about FFS?

You're too good looking 'mick 

From what started in my opinion anyway in genuine question, is the current players not good enough or is the manager stubborn in his belief in so called players.

Has turned into a turd of a thread.

So Jürgen or players, well personally I think there's a huge over-reaction to us playing still pretty damn well in attack. Today we could have had 4 or 5 in the first half with 8 or 9 decent chances. 

@KopiteLuke.

Just read the entirety of your post and agree with much of it, namely the defense being called into question.

However, you are delusional if you think our first half performance was that good. Hyperbole red tinted glasses that.

We had half chances and there is no way we could have been 4 or 5 up in the first half, we didn't even muster a shot on target FFS.

The performance was flat. Like it has been during this poor run of form. It was pedestrian, we were forced wide and built attacks from wide areas crossing balls in.

Did you see the tempo rise once we went 2-0 down, suddenly the urgency, zip and effort was forced into our game?

That's how it should have been from the off, like it was at the beginning of the season, the first half was another insipid Southampton display which meant we were ultimately going to shoot ourselves in the foot.

The game didn't start until the 46th minute, until Swansea drew first blood, we coasted the first 45 huffing and puffing short of ideas - which has been a symptom of our game for a while now.

We should have built up at least a 1-0 lead and should have come flying out the traps. Swansea made it to HT, without conceding a shot on target and got their just deserts through our sh*te defending.

The signs and worries were there previously, but it was "overblown" according to you and others. It clearly wasn't. Our intensity on the ball, creativity with it has been replaced by lethargic, pedestrian football.

And Klopp, should have got the lads fired up for this so as when that first whistle blew, we come storming out. We came out all casual and pedestrian and coupled with the fact Klopp hasn't reinforced this tired, leggy, lacking in ideas squad this blip is on him for not being proactive, or even reactive to this poor run. Which, has pretty much seen us fu**ed off out of the title race.

In fact, I dont even give him credit for the purple patch we had after they went two up as I think the players upped it then, finally.

I actually think he killed the purple patch by bringing in Origi which pushed Bobby outside of the box when he was already on 2 goals and Swansea were shitting themselves every time he touched it.

Personally don't think he got the line-up right today nor the subs but I also don't think he is perfect and immune to mistakes nor are the players so we'll get over it and go again.

Klopp flopped at the Kop.

Swansea had 3 shots on target. 3 goals.
His failure to sign a good keeper is really biting us.
He had plenty of time to sort that problem area out.

Neither. The players are doing their absolute best, and Jürgen has performed a miracle to have this squad right up there challenging for as long as he has.

Unfortunately we are running out of gas, inspiration and able bodies. I suppose you could argue that in that case it's Klopps fault for not strengthening the squad but I think that's a separate argument. As it stands, the players we do have and the manager deserve credit IMHO for having a right good go at it so far. My fear is that there is a real chance that we are about to witness the wheels coming off a bit, the only positive about that if it does happen is that we'll know next time (hopefully).

Mick , c'mon. I would say Klopp because teams have figured us out but Jürgen hasn't realized it yet. We have become predictable but Jürgen doesn't seem to realize this. For the last 2 months , every team has applied the same tactics. We have squirmed a few results but nothing has been resounding .

If we continue down this path , our season will become full of erratic results. We still do not have the players to perform the system of play we use now.

We are terrible at set pieces. We have no class cross's of the ball. We do not have dominate midfielders. We do not have a top striker. We do not have a great GK. We do not have a LB!  Luckily for us , our league is of poor quality so we have managed to reach further than our means.

But , the other teams will not wait to see how we progress. They will buy quality while we try to develop average ( likeable ) players. I want horrible c**t winners in our team. Not nice lads.

His half time talks never seem to work.

His substitutions are questionable.

3 of his signings in Karius Klavan and Grujic seem to be 15m wasted.

His lack of ambition to sign players in winter window.

Very stubborn in his style, tactics, formation and approach to games.

His half time talks never seem to work.

His substitutions are questionable.

3 of his signings in Karius Klavan and Grujic seem to be 15m wasted.

His lack of ambition to sign players in winter window.

Very stubborn in his style, tactics, formation and approach to games.

Yet we are 3rd in the league & 2 domestic cup competitions..

3 of his signings in Karius Klavan and Grujic seem to be 15m wasted.

Yet if not for Karius we would be all but out of the EFL Cup to Saints. Grujic has also had an injury and wasn't going to go straight into the first team fold anyway.

Yet we are 3rd in the league & 2 domestic cup competitions..

This!!
It's amusing to see people call Klopp stubborn for these things but if this current position was offered to them people in the summer, they would have jumped at us being in it.

It's clear Jürgen had more patience than us fans, we can bemoan the lack of depth in the squad (rightly so) which dies fall at Jurgens door to an extent, but no doubt he is intending to build a title winning team, he is just prepared to do it over a longer time frame than we are hoping for.

I am annoyed that we have Klavan starting in CB when we have Sakho, who we know is a decent player, maybe even our best defender??But I have to accept theat Klopp has burned his bridges with Sakho, so that's a no go.
He is a little inflexible when it comes to tactics and formations, too much trying to walk it in, and it appears the smaller teams are wise to this, and simply counter it by parking up and hitting us on the break.

The blame well always fall with the manager ultimately, but so will the praise, and that's the way it should be.

Klopp flopped at the Kop.

Swansea had 3 shots on target. 3 goals.
His failure to sign a good keeper is really biting us.
He had plenty of time to sort that problem area out.

Another well thought out post Muppet, lets keep blaming the goalkeepers, what about the sh*t defending we were dreadful at the back yesterday, I don't think whoever we had in goal would have done much better.

3 of his signings in Karius Klavan and Grujic seem to be 15m wasted.

Klavan has been extremely steady cover, Grujic has been injured, Karius ( one of the best keepers in the Bundesliga last year has struggled, as have better keepers before him after just one season in this league!

Please tell me again how we have spunked 15M and who, in your opinion was available for that money?

What I will say is that I believe the boss is wrong not to strengthen now, it is blatantly obvious that we lack cover in certain areas, but then he is a multi qualified UEFA coach and I drive HGV's so what do I know!

This slump has basically come down to teams sussing us out.  The 5s and 6s against the likes of Hull and Watford ain't happening because teams are playing with a compact bank of 4 and in front of them a bank of 5 with no way through. This leads to our high numbers of passes which about  90% are passing the rainbow arc from left to right and vice versa. Teams are then breaking fairly quickly knowing that if they can create 5 chances there's most probably a goal or two.

Yesterday when Origi and Sturridge came on they had no room to work in at all.  Only Lallana seemed to try the quick give and goes to move their defence around.

Basically our football has become Turgid. Yesterday we should have been blasting out of the traps but it didn't happen.

The argument that we are 3rd and therefore all is good is false if you look at the current trend over the last month. Our team is really flat at the moment and its a long time since we terrorised and dominated another team. We were fantastic in the first half of the season and deserve to be where we are but unless we can come up with a plan B freshen up our style and players then we will very quickly find ourselves in 5th place or lower.
BTW all those saying that it all hinges on Mane are deluded, he will of course help but we were fairly flat in the last few games he played in as well. Its our style of play which has been found out, time to earn your huge salary Jürgen.

This slump has basically come down to teams sussing us out.  The 5s and 6s against the likes of Hull and Watford ain't happening because teams are playing with a compact bank of 4 and in front of them a bank of 5 with no way through. This leads to our high numbers of passes which about  90% are passing the rainbow arc from left to right and vice versa. Teams are then breaking fairly quickly knowing that if they can create 5 chances there's most probably a goal or two.

Yesterday when Origi and Sturridge came on they had no room to work in at all.  Only Lallana seemed to try the quick give and goes to move their defence around.

Basically our football has become Turgid. Yesterday we should have been blasting out of the traps but it didn't happen.

Yes and the easy solution to that defensive system it to have a tall powerful striker who can connect with crosses or provide knock downs, ironically someone like Benteke although I was by no means his biggest fan. I would like us to go for someone like Llorente or perhaps even Crouch as an impact sub, hopefully we can get someone better though but we have to get someone in this window otherwise its bye bye top 4.

3 of his signings in Karius Klavan and Grujic seem to be 15m wasted.

Klavan was bought for cover and has, by and large, been effective in that role. Karius has made no more mistakes than Mignolet this season, the difference is the latter wasn't called out by Gary Neville and half the supporter base for them. He's also twenty three, extremely young for a goalkeeper. Grujic has been injured. He's only twenty years of age. The knee jerk thread is -> way.

Yes and the easy solution to that defensive system it to have a tall powerful striker who can connect with crosses or provide knock downs, ironically someone like Benteke although I was by no means his biggest fan. I would like us to go for someone like Llorente or perhaps even Crouch as an impact sub, hopefully we can get someone better though but we have to get someone in this window otherwise its bye bye top 4.

I agree with you, Brendan sold our £36m Plan B, who could also operate in a Plan A and C when fully fit. Look how he turned the 2012 Fa Cup final around when he came on.

We buy rubbish and expect them to play out of their skins.

we have been making silly mistakes for as long as i can remember

we go out and buy some unheard of slow Klavan, a free in Matip, have spent £50+ Mill on Sakho, Moreno and Sakho and have no competition for positions at the back

on top of that we have farly weak and poor defensive minded central midfielders.

Klopp must take the blame for this, and equally the players need to stop coming out having interviews saying what we need to do, and knuckle down.

Our shocking defending is nothing new.

The problem is it is not getting any better

We buy rubbish and expect them to play out of their skins.

we have been making silly mistakes for as long as i can remember

we go out and buy some unheard of slow Klavan, a free in Matip, have spent £50+ Mill on Sakho, Moreno and Sakho and have no competition for positions at the back

on top of that we have farly weak and poor defensive minded central midfielders.

Klopp must take the blame for this, and equally the players need to stop coming out having interviews saying what we need to do, and knuckle down.

Our shocking defending is nothing new.

The problem is it is not getting any better

A sobering taste of things to come was the Suarez debacle.
The genius was replaced with squad men and potential, we pay the price of continued false economies.

we go out and buy some unheard of slow Klavan, a free in Matip, have spent £50+ Mill on Sakho, Moreno and Sakho and have no competition for positions at the back

The problem is it is not getting any better

We have two Sakho's??

We are terrible at possession football. Coutinho aside, we don't have the players to do it. It really doesn't matter who it is whether it's United or Plymouth, we can't break teams down who choose to park the bus.

Jürgen should be addressing this. instead of having 80% of possession in those sort of games passing sideways for 90 minutes going nowhere, you know what we should do? Go long. Lump it forward, give the opposition the ball and then hunt them down. It's what we're best at.

Some of the comments in this thread are embarrassing. I think we're all in agreement that Jürgen is a world class manager and I think we're all in agreement that overall, we've had a very good season so far. What's annoying though or what's frustrating, is that once we have gotten ourselves in such a strong position like this, we have thrown certain games or points away which could have been avoided possibly.

Nobody is saying get Jürgen out, all we are doing is discussing how we can get back on track or where we can improve. So calm the F**k down.

For me, first things first, drop emre can - especially in those games were the team park the bus. Secondly, drop Klavan. He has been hit and miss this season, mostly miss. Thirdly, it's time to play a recognised striker, one who is familiar with scoring goals, one who  we have sitting on our bench.

For me the title race is over now. Top four and two cups would be very nice though and it's certainly doable. We need to get back on track starting Wednesday.

Up the Reds.

Unfortunately we are running out of gas, inspiration and able bodies. My fear is that there is a real chance that we are about to witness the wheels coming off a bit

We've lost one home game in a year, and 45 minutes later, the whole Klopp project is in the bin?

Looking at the bigger picture, we're doing fine. A home semi final to face the mancs in the cup final and get a game in hand that weekend, we have a home game to make the 5th round of the Cup, and are still in the Top 4 despite our "wobble".

So far this weekend, nobody around us has taken advantage of what was an expensive result, while Chelsea are about to enter a difficult series of games after this weekend. If they win them all, then so be it, but we've got to keep going as there's still lots to play for, and wait for those around us to stumble where they least expect it.

As regards whether Klopp or the players are at fault, best leave it until we've nothing left to play for, then we can knee jerk and go through the post mortem looking for scapegoats. We go again.

We've lost one home game in a year, and 45 minutes later, the whole Klopp project is in the bin?

Looking at the bigger picture, we're doing fine. A home semi final to face the mancs in the cup final and get a game in hand that weekend, we have a home game to make the 5th round of the Cup, and are still in the Top 4 despite our "wobble".

So far this weekend, nobody around us has taken advantage of what was an expensive result, while Chelsea are about to enter a difficult series of games after this weekend. If they win them all, then so be it, but we've got to keep going as there's still lots to play for, and wait for those around us to stumble where they least expect it.

As regards whether Klopp or the players are at fault, best leave it until we've nothing left to play for, then we can knee jerk and go through the post mortem looking for scapegoats. We go again.

We can't calm the F**k down because we are struggling at the moment. Your post would apply if these players had been there and done that but they havn't.

What we are seeing is a repeat of previous seasons. We do not have the quality of players to sustain a push for a top 3 finish. Top 4 is gona be a fight.

Also , people saying our players are looking tired ? Please . Tired? Why?  Luckily for us we are playing in a poor quality league so if change's are made and a few quality players are brought in we still have a chance of top 4 finish.

One more point. Chelsea , Arsenal and Spurs will fancy their chance's against us at Anfield. They already know our gameplan and will be setting up to take advantage of it. They know we will not surprise them with a different system and will play into their hands. Like i've said , a team needs to evolve and adapt because every other team is doing just that.