Should Klopp Be More Flexible With His Footballing Philosophy?

The problem with the gegenpress (if there is one) isn't just that our players are running out of gas, it's also that teams aren't allowing us to do it because they simply don't try and play in their own half. I'm a little surprised more people aren't picking up on this, to me it's as clear as the nose on your face. Teams are literally giving us the ball (in our half) and retreating to the edge of their own box, before saying "go on then, lets see what you can do". Unfortunately for us, the answer is not very much. We work it wide via slow passing from side to side, cross it, see it headed out as we don't have a header of the ball (I know Firmino got one on the weekend but generally we don't), then when it comes out we go through the whole rigmarole again.

The unfortunate truth for us is that if teams don't play with the ball in their own half, and they don't commit large numbers forward so they can get caught on the break, we very quickly run out of ideas. I don't follow football overseas, but my guess would be that in Jurgens last season at Dortmund teams played in exactly the same way against them that Swansea, Plymouth etc did to us. You have to have a "well if you do that we'll do this" option, be it going 4-4-2, going more direct or whatever it is. If you approach every game in exactly the same way, sooner or later teams will counter it. I'm afraid to say it but that's what's happening.     

And as far as footballing philosophy goes with squad building, given we don't have a winter break it is suicide to approach a season with a squad as weak as ours was. It's bonkers to give yourself a self inflicted handicap, nobody gives prizes out at the end of the season for having a negative NET spend or low wages to turnover ratios. It was very silly to try and do it before the season started, it's been even more daft not to invest the minute the January window opened. If you can't get your number one pick, get your number two pick, if not him your number three etc etc.

If we win the league in three years time it won't mean Jürgen was "right all along" not to have invested this season. We really could have had a good go this time, we had it in us, if we fail even to mount a challenge in the end it'll be precisely for this reason. 

The problem with the gegenpress (if there is one) isn't just that our players are running out of gas, it's also that teams aren't allowing us to do it because they simply don't try and play in their own half. I'm a little surprised more people aren't picking up on this, to me it's as clear as the nose on your face.

I've definitely noticed it

I've commentated on it a couple of times. Saying how teams just give us the ball, and then there's nothing to press because we have the possession. Then, all they do, is bide their time, wait for a chance, and with us you'll inevitably get a great chance, and try to hit us in a smash and grab.

Lots of focus on the way we attack in this thread but i would like to have seen Jürgen adjust our formation/personnel at times in a game to change the way we defend. Against united they didn't just hoof it up front, they caused us a lot of problems from wide areas with two on ones and umpteen crosses coming into the box. I couldn't quite believe I was saying it but I would have like to have seen us switch to a midfield four with Moreno coming on to play LM to nullify the threat. It's easy to focus on our attacking play particularly as the goals have dried up in recent games but if we did a better job defensively it would be much less of an issue.

With regards to our attacking threat I think we need to upgrade at the centre-forward position. Teams would think twice about dropping off quite so far if it meant more touches in the box for a top top striker. He needs to be a tricky player with good movement and the ability to create in tight areas. Studge of three years ago would do nicely but unfortunately the player we have now is a shadow of what he used to be. Firmino is doing alright up there, his work rate is incredible and he has chipped in with some good goals but he is a bit too workmanlike to hold the shirt long-term. Also, it's clear how much we are missing Mane, when defences drop off like they do in banks of 4-5 you need a player to break the lines and pull them out of shape. We need another Mane.

With regards to playing three at the back as per the opening post, to be honest, when we've got the ball our shape is three at the back. Would it be better defensively? Yeah maybe, it wouldn't be that hard would it and you can see the difference it has made at Chelsea but Conte preaches three at the back and I believe he has for a number of years. It takes a lot of coaching and particularly for the three defenders there is a bit of re-wiring to be done.

I've definitely noticed it

I've commentated on it a couple of times. Saying how teams just give us the ball, and then there's nothing to press because we have the possession. Then, all they do, is bide their time, wait for a chance, and with us you'll inevitably get a great chance, and try to hit us in a smash and grab.

Prior to Mane leaving for the AFCON that wasn't a problem because we had the pace and talent to punish them for it. Remember, the press is used to harass the opposition off the ball when they have it, the rest of the time we attack. What's happened is that since Mane's departure, we've not only lacked the pace to get in behind teams, but we've become incredibly sloppy in passing. That was evident against both United and Swansea. The reason this has come about is because Klopp has moved Lallana up to the front three were he's nowhere near as effective and disrupts the balance of the team. Against Swansea, for example, we only started to play well when he brought Sturridge on and moved Lallana back but by that time the damage had been done. 

And as far as footballing philosophy goes with squad building, given we don't have a winter break it is suicide to approach a season with a squad as weak as ours was. It's bonkers to give yourself a self inflicted handicap, nobody gives prizes out at the end of the season for having a negative NET spend or low wages to turnover ratios. It was very silly to try and do it before the season started, it's been even more daft not to invest the minute the January window opened. If you can't get your number one pick, get your number two pick, if not him your number three etc etc.

If we win the league in three years time it won't mean Jürgen was "right all along" not to have invested this season. We really could have had a good go this time, we had it in us, if we fail even to mount a challenge in the end it'll be precisely for this reason. 

Squad:

GK - Karius
GK - Mignolet
GK - Manninger

RB - Clyne
RB - TAA

CB - Matip
CB - Lovren
CB - Sakho
CB - Gomez
CB - Klavan
CB - Lucas*

LB - Milner
LB - Moreno

CM - Wijnaldum
CM - Henderson
CM - Can
CM - Grujic
CM - Stewart
CM - Lucas*

AM - Lallana
AM - Coutinho
AM - Mane

ST - Firmino
ST - Origi
ST - Sturridge
ST - Ings


That's a squad of 25 with just 1 youth player selected, no Ejaria, Ojo, Brannagan, Woodburn etc. It's very silly to label that as bonkers.

Squad:

GK - Karius
GK - Mignolet
GK - Manninger

RB - Clyne
RB - TAA

CB - Matip
CB - Lovren
CB - Sakho
CB - Gomez
CB - Klavan
CB - Lucas*

LB - Milner
LB - Moreno

CM - Wijnaldum
CM - Henderson
CM - Can
CM - Grujic
CM - Stewart
CM - Lucas*

AM - Lallana
AM - Coutinho
AM - Mane

ST - Firmino
ST - Origi
ST - Sturridge
ST - Ings


That's a squad of 25 with just 1 youth player selected, no Ejaria, Ojo, Brannagan, Woodburn etc. It's very silly to label that as bonkers.

Jesus Luke you do talk bollocks sometimes. Lets SENSIBLY look at it, stripping away the silliness:

Goalkeeper: We ended last season with one (Mignolet). Pretty much everyone agreed he was short of being up to standard. We brought in a KID from Germany who we paid 5 million quid for, and a 39 year old coach/back up (who your laughably now including in the squad). Now you might be surprised that Karius hasn't so far worked out, or than Manninger hasn't so far provided the answer between the sticks or made his LFC debut, but I aren't, not even a little bit. We should IMHO have brought in a proper goalkeeper.

Full-backs: We ended last season with a top class right back (Clyne) and a left back who pretty much everyone agrees is useless. We didn't bring in a right back to cover, we decided instead to rely on a kid (TAA) who at that point hadn't made his Premiership debut. He might end up being a good player TAA, but he is IMHO a long way short of being good enough as of now (and was even less so then). At left back, we decided not to bring any cover in at all, but to rely on a right footed midfielder. Fortunately he's a great player and it's worked out, cross everything he doesn't get injured.

Central defenders: We ended last season with two very good ones (Lovren and Sakho) and one average stand in (Lucas). We f***** Sakho off (rightly in my opinion) and brought in a player who isn't as good (Karius), BUT we also signed Matip, who when he's fit is a quality centre half. Lovren (when he's fit) is also a quality centre half, on the odd occasion they're both fit, we're sorted. Gomez was already long term injured and there was/is no way of knowing how he'd come back, not from a cruciate.

Midfielders: We ended last season with Henderson and Can as potential regular first team midfielders who Jürgen wanted to keep. Lucas can always do a job as a holder for a game or two, and Jürgen brought in a KID from Serbia (Grujic), had a 23yo of his own who isn't ever IMHO going to be good enough (Stewart) and also bought in Wijnaldum.

Attacking midfielders: Jürgen had Lallana and Coutinho who are both quality, and brought in Mane who is also excellent.

Strikers: We had Ings who was/is again long term injured (it happens when they come back, you never know), Sturridge who's an injury waiting to happen and who he doesn't fancy anyway, and an extremely raw Origi, and Firmino.



So being serious, this is what we're left with as sensible options, leaving out Grujic, Manninger, Ings etc:


1. Karius/Mignolet (neither are good enough. We KNOW this, but we carry on regardless).

2. Clyne - please stay fit, back up not up to it yet (TAA).

3. Milner - please stay fit, back up will never be up to it (Moreno).

4. Matip - please stay fit, back ups pretty average (Lucas, Klavan).

5. Lovren - see above.

6. Henderson - It'd be handy if you could stay fit. Back ups (Stewart and Lucas) a significant step down.

7. Wijnaldum - Pretty handy if you stay fit too. (Stewart and Lucas in this role a mile behind), we can though possibly shove lallana in there if all else fails.

8. Can - see above.

9. Mane - As you're the only one who has pace, don't be injured or go and play in any international tournaments. (I know)

10. Coutinho - As you're our best player, try and stay fit. If you can't, and if Lallana isn't already covering for a midfielder, then we might be able to get by.

11. Firmino - As the options to replace you are a bloke who's usually injured and who we don't fancy anyway, or a big raw kid up top, try and stay fit.


That's the ACTUAL, realistic squad: Mignolet , KARIUS, Clyne , TAA, Lovren , Matip [/b], Klavan , Lucas , Milner , MORENO, Wijnaldum, Henderson, Can, GRUJIC, STEWART, Lallana, Coutinho, Mane, Firmino, Sturridge, Origi. The ones in capitals are barely squad players in name only as of now. Some will never ever be good enough, others may one day make the step. If you think that squad is the best we could do, then IMHO you're living in cloud cuckoo land.   



   

Do I think Klopp should be more flexible with his approach?

That would suggest he isn't which I don't believe he is, nor any top managers aren't flexible either, they'd get found out far too easily if they stuck to one simple overriding style

i think all managers have a view on how the game is approached, if you look at Jürgen for example he believes that football is an entertainment game, as to be fair so did Rodgers, they both saw the game as something to be won rather than something to avoid defeat first
If you compare that to say both Rafa and Gerard Houllier then they are fundamentally defensive coaches or certainly coaches that see a solid defence as the first thing to achieve and try to win the game in moments, rather than say Jürgen who believes that we should win the game on the front foot.

Within that mindset all those managers have varieties on the theme they set.

If you look at a Rafa or Houllierside, they werent sides  packed with with flair, they were solid at the back, the defenders defend first, they for the most part two defensive midfielders, solid workmanlike wid players, often not even wingers or traditional wide midfielders, and then those players fed the two or three in the team with the licence to win it for us.

Brendan and Jürgen think the other way, they think that football should be a front foot game, that they fit flair into it as much as possible.. They attack with numbers which is why both will never have defensive records like a Rafa or Houllier side. We don't have poor defenders now, we didn't under Rodgers, but the mentality leaves the CBS exposed, it leaves us open to a counter and makes us look poor defensively

Look at Lovren at Southampton, surrounded by a defensive mindset for the most part, a team that will sit in and keep it compact around them, that plays counter attacking football themselves and that doesn't let players get at him often.. Here he is often left exposed with just his CB partner and maybe Hendo in front of them with players running at them at pace.
That's the key there, a defender, and we look panicky when players run at us, but they don't like it and they get rash or jittery because of it because they dont have the pace most of the time to live with these quick forwards, it makes them look poorer than they are. If we are playing on the front foot, probing with most of our team attacking and it breaks down and because the team is all attacking naturally the defensive line is higher, then we get broken on with only three back? It's not that they are poor defenders, it's because they are exposed. I actually think Van Dyke would look just the same in the situation.

In Klopps ideal world teams take us on toe to toe but we know, and he's finding out that 75% of teams in this league won't do that, so they sit in and the longer the game goes on at 0-0 the better for them, they have no intention of coming out. But it's not in Jurgens nature to go well if you do that we'll do that do to make sure we aren't susceptible to the counter.. The game would be awful viewing and we wouldn't want to see it and Jürgen wouldn't want to either watch that himself or make us watch it, it's against his approach. And frankly is no good for the game

We can't gagenpress against teams that have that approach against us and I think Klopp obviously knows that, I don't think for the most part we do it unless a team, which is most often the bigger teams come out more against us, so I think he has adapted, but I still think he's ironing it out as an approach, and I also think he's changing the mentality of the players here who aren't used to winning 4 out of 5 games throughout the season, we haven't done that for ten years nearly if not longer..

I think the way he brought this summer wasn't necessarily to press from ten front but to prepare for teams sitting in.
When he signed Winjaldum, we all thought for the front three or as a ten.. But Klopp wanted him in midfield because he's a player used to playing higher up it would allow his midfield to play 20yards further forward, dropping Lallana into midfield was the same thought as was playing Hendo as the 6.. All to get us higher up the pitch and be comfortable working and recycling the ball.. Having a front three of Coutinho, Mane and Firmino in front of them.. Having the full backs high up.. It was to pin them in and play higher up.. To move the ball to work a deep block, all quick and comfortable in possession

The mistake I think hes made in recent weeks, which has really only been on the back of injuries and the AFCON is that he's come away from it a bit, he's moved Lallana back into the front three, therefore creating two changes rather than one, bringing in a Can who sits deeper naturally and can't recycle the ball quicker..
We aren't moving it quick enough now, it's not just natural leg pace we are lacking currently it's quick possession of the ball, quick passing, sharp movement

He's learning the league all the time and I think this spell will help long term as he will know what type of additions he needs to make to th squad to help us break down this type of approach from the opposition. But you can bet your last quid that most opponents won't change their approach and for the most part Jurgens approach against them this season has worked, it's just a few injuries and the AFCON have affected what we are doing.

Do I think he should be flexible with his philosophy? No not his philosophy because that makes him the manager he is, and it's why people love him and his approach.

Do I think he should maybe alter a system slightly but still with the same philosophy? Yeah maybe so, but it's player led, in terms of who he has this disposal, and injuries have tied his hands a little bit in that over recent weeks. We could do with a bit stronger depth in my opinion and his philosophy is just fine

Jürgen has shown a different approach in the City game for example, but it wasn't a defensive showing, it was still front foot if you watch it back, in terms of where the lines start on the pitch.

What I will say is that I love any style of football, I love Kenny in the 80s, I loved Roy Evans approach.. I loved the defensive chess styles of Rafa and Gerard.. And I love front foot balls out stuff.. But we can't long for something else in the moment.. Just enjoy it

What I will say is that I love any style of football, I love Kenny in the 80s, I loved Roy Evans approach.. I loved the defensive chess styles of Rafa and Gerard.. And I love front foot balls out stuff.. But we can't long for something else in the moment.. Just enjoy it

I think we are capable of winning the league...a couple more real quality players I think we are even more capable of winning the league.

I believe that LFC, United, City, Chelsea, Spurs & Arsenal are all capable of winning the league in any given year, that being said on any given year each club has a 1:6 chance of winning the league.

If one is to base enjoyment of the game off of only winning the league chances are more often than not most supporters of the above mentioned clubs are going to me miserable.

Personally I think we will see the day when we lift the trophy but in the meantime I am thoroughly enjoying watching us play the past 18 months or so and long may it continue.

Jesus Luke you do talk bollocks sometimes. Lets SENSIBLY look at it, stripping away the silliness:

Bollocks by listing the actual squad and showing up your silly tantrum and poor attempt at defending your 'romantic' comments earlier in the season? No Mick, what's happening is your true colours showing. First sign of a bump in the road and you're all over it, talk about mouth foam you must be swimming in the stuff.

This for example:

1. Karius/Mignolet (neither are good enough. We KNOW this, but we carry on regardless).

2. Clyne - please stay fit, back up not up to it yet (TAA).

3. Milner - please stay fit, back up will never be up to it (Moreno).

4. Matip - please stay fit, back ups pretty average (Lucas, Klavan).

5. Lovren - see above.

6. Henderson - It'd be handy if you could stay fit. Back ups (Stewart and Lucas) a significant step down.

7. Wijnaldum - Pretty handy if you stay fit too. (Stewart and Lucas in this role a mile behind), we can though possibly shove lallana in there if all else fails.

8. Can - see above.

9. Mane - As you're the only one who has pace, don't be injured or go and play in any international tournaments. (I know)

10. Coutinho - As you're our best player, try and stay fit. If you can't, and if Lallana isn't already covering for a midfielder, then we might be able to get by.

11. Firmino - As the options to replace you are a bloke who's usually injured and who we don't fancy anyway, or a big raw kid up top, try and stay fit.


That's the ACTUAL, realistic squad: Mignolet , KARIUS, Clyne , TAA, Lovren , Matip [/b], Klavan , Lucas , Milner , MORENO, Wijnaldum, Henderson, Can,  GRUJIC, STEWART, Lallana, Coutinho, Mane, Firmino, Sturridge, Origi. The ones in capitals are barely squad players in name only as of now. Some will never ever be good enough, others may one day make the step. If you think that squad is the best we could do, then IMHO you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

is so ridiculous I'm astonished you clicked 'post'.

Just for the cherries on the cake you label Sturridge "a bloke who's usually injured and who we don't fancy anyway." This is a player you didn't rate to begin with, now have decided is "the best natural finisher in the league and clearly world class." Yet you dismiss him in this summary by "a bloke who's usually injured and who we don't fancy anyway." hypocrisy is a word you use so often and we've got to discuss "seriously" when you're reduced to this?

You've put KARIUS in capitals, a lad that's played 10 games for us, many of which were clean sheets and in his most recent looked really good but of course it doesn't fit your agenda to understand that we paid his release clause and he was indeed highly rated and well experienced before he came. No he's just some no mark that only cost blah blah.... (again this is your serious dismissal of a player)

TAA a player clearly rated highly by Klopp but rather than trust him and watch him develop him into a real talent in your opinion he's not worthy of a squad place. Let's not trust the manager that you've also stated is one of the best in the world to develop talent (his main asset) but instead mock him for giving a promising youth player squad status.

Finally Grujic in caps! He's played 2 games for us after an extremely promising preseason. Should we have known he'd be injured and not given him a squad place, seriously?!

You're becoming unhinged Mick, seriously.

Here is my issue with Klopp (as another poster pointed out the other day).

If he knew Mane was leaving in January, if he knew teams don't like selling their players in January (I think he's gone on record as all but saying he really dislikes the January transfer window and can't wait for Jan 31st), and even though we bought Mane in the summer, why did he not show initiative and buy some back up as well? Can't get Pulisic, Draxler, Brandt, Promes, or Adama Traore in January? Then get one of them in the summer.

Perhaps we should ask should Klopp be more flexible in the transfer market? For whatever reason, we always seem to make real heavy work of buying players. It was bad enough under Rodgers with the transfer committee, but now when it seems that transfer committee is taking more of a back seat, it seems our current manager is perhaps too fussy.

That and persisting with Can.

Here is my issue with Klopp (as another poster pointed out the other day).

If he knew Mane was leaving in January, if he knew teams don't like selling their players in January (I think he's gone on record as all but saying he really dislikes the January transfer window and can't wait for Jan 31st), and even though we bought Mane in the summer, why did he not show initiative and buy some back up as well? Can't get Pulisic, Draxler, Brandt, Promes, or Adama Traore in January? Then get one of them in the summer.

Perhaps we should ask should Klopp be more flexible in the transfer market? For whatever reason, we always seem to make real heavy work of buying players. It was bad enough under Rodgers with the transfer committee, but now when it seems that transfer committee is taking more of a back seat, it seems our current manager is perhaps too fussy.

That and persisting with Can.

We did bid for Pulisic in the summer , they turned it down

He tried but in fairness we did a lot of work on the squad in the summer and maybe in fairness it was as much as could be done

                                   BIG FAT YES !

Bollocks by listing the actual squad and showing up your silly tantrum and poor attempt at defending your 'romantic' comments earlier in the season? No Mick, what's happening is your true colours showing. First sign of a bump in the road and you're all over it, talk about mouth foam you must be swimming in the stuff.

This for example:

is so ridiculous I'm astonished you clicked 'post'.

Just for the cherries on the cake you label Sturridge "a bloke who's usually injured and who we don't fancy anyway." This is a player you didn't rate to begin with, now have decided is "the best natural finisher in the league and clearly world class." Yet you dismiss him in this summary by "a bloke who's usually injured and who we don't fancy anyway." hypocrisy is a word you use so often and we've got to discuss "seriously" when you're reduced to this?

You've put KARIUS in capitals, a lad that's played 10 games for us, many of which were clean sheets and in his most recent looked really good but of course it doesn't fit your agenda to understand that we paid his release clause and he was indeed highly rated and well experienced before he came. No he's just some no mark that only cost blah blah.... (again this is your serious dismissal of a player)

TAA a player clearly rated highly by Klopp but rather than trust him and watch him develop him into a real talent in your opinion he's not worthy of a squad place. Let's not trust the manager that you've also stated is one of the best in the world to develop talent (his main asset) but instead mock him for giving a promising youth player squad status.

Finally Grujic in caps! He's played 2 games for us after an extremely promising preseason. Should we have known he'd be injured and not given him a squad place, seriously?!

You're becoming unhinged Mick, seriously.

Luke, I get that it's forum banter and everybody wants to be seen to be right, but why lie? Why put something in quotes that suggests I've said it when you KNOW I haven't? Why pretend that I've changed my mind from a player I rate highly, always have, always say so and would put in the team on a regular basis, to now saying I don't rate him?

The "we" I referred to in my post was Jürgen not me (as he clearly DOESN'T fancy him), but you knew that. You're not a numpty mate, neither are you normally a liar so don't stoop simply to try and win an Internet argument.

All that aside, the issue we have run into is twofold and I believe was forseeable a while ago (it must have been because quite a few of us on here saw it coming). The issues are:

1. When one of our first choice eleven (who are a bloody good side in fairness) are unavailable, the replacements are not often enough up to it. On occasions we don't have a credible like for like replacement (Mane, Milner, Clyne, Henderson) and at other times those that step in are only capable of doing so for short periods (Klavan, Lucas, Stewart etc).

2. We don't have anybody off the bench who can change up the way we play or offer something radically different.


Jürgen has done an incredible job to get this team within touching distance of the top of the league by Christmas, but these two shortcomings are beginning to hurt us now.

The other thread was discussing whether or not the problems we are going through were down to Klopp or the players he uses. I made this thread so we could discuss actual tactics/formations. That said, Mods, please feel free to merge this with another thread if you feel it's warranted.

Either way, I found this an interesting read: Should Liverpool go 3-4-3

I'd like to see this 3-4-3 thing given a go:

Migs/Karius

Clyne - Matip - Lovren

Mane - Henderson - Lallana - Milner

Sturridge - Firmino - Coutinho

Mane would be employed as an attacking winger

For me it always comes down to quality. The system can always be tinkered with and players can be asked to adapt their role in certain games ( even some of the best teams just hoof it in there when all else seems lost ) but if you havn't got quality players it all gets found out.

The amount of times our players (Clyne  & Milner ) get into great positions to cross but waste the chance completely is maddening. We are terrible at set piece's , we are poor clean tacklers of the ball , poor headers of the ball . Generally.

Nothing wrong with trying something new ( i'm all for that ) but without Footballers who can adapt to situations that arise in a match , by thinking for themselves , our play will stutter and tail off.

We need a great spine of a team , we have not one great player in our spine so we always seem to have problems that rotate. The Keeper is the problem , then it's the CB's , then the Midfield is to static , then we have no width ....... and on , and on.

Changing a system with quality players can have a huge effect ( Look at Chelsea ) i'm not so sure  with players with limited ability.

Luke, I get that it's forum banter and everybody wants to be seen to be right, but why lie? Why put something in quotes that suggests I've said it when you KNOW I haven't? Why pretend that I've changed my mind from a player I rate highly, always have, always say so and would put in the team on a regular basis, to now saying I don't rate him?

The "we" I referred to in my post was Jürgen not me (as he clearly DOESN'T fancy him), but you knew that. You're not a numpty mate, neither are you normally a liar so don't stoop simply to try and win an Internet argument.

Mick I remember distinctly that you had massive issues with him and weren't even convinced we should buy him! I remember this because I was one of, if not the biggest Sturridge fan at the time and was 100% for the signing. All I heard from your side was that you'd heard from some lads at the pub that he's a bit brainless in terms of football and basically selfish or words to that effect and he's also got attitude problems. You seemed especially sold on the attitude problems as I remember, so unless all this happened in an incredibly vivid dream then I've no idea where you think I'm lying?

As for the "we", yes I knew how you were using it, you were using it to over-emphasise the squad short comings which was completely disingenuous. You can't disagree with Jürgen about squad depth, basically call him suicidal in his approach, bonkers and whatever other terms you chose and then suddenly impose your belief of Jürgen's opinion and ignore your own in summary. From everything Jürgen has said he rates Sturridge, listen to him talk and he talks incredibly highly of him, just because he isn't starting games doesn't mean he isn't rated or even close. For a similar example listen to how he describes Lucas as the best defensive midfielder we have, he doesn't start either, hence the fact that the depth is there or certainly a lot stronger than how you're now describing it.

The quote you're looking for was after talking to one of the guys at Chelsea (a lot use the pub, Jodie Morris, Frank Arnesen used to, couple of backroom people etc). The guy said to me that Sturridge was "a waste of time" and that his attitude "stunk". That's not some opinion formed out of nothing, the bloke who told me that had at the time been watching Sturridge train every week for a couple of years. I (as I do from time to time when I hear stuff), relayed it to the forum.

Of course once he arrived at Liverpool his class as a player (he scored on his debut and very heavily immediately) was obvious, as was the mutual respect between him and Rodgers. Rodgers even adjusted his methodology in order to get both Suarez and Sturridge into the team, a move which was fairly obvious but still spectacularly successful. I've rated him very highly ever since he arrived and have often stated that he should play more, to pretend I don't rate him is not telling the truth. It is the truth that I had reservations about his attitude (who didn't?).

As for now, Jürgen can say till he's blue in the face that he rates Sturridge, but actions speak louder than words. He used to say the same about Benteke and didn't play him either. Stop being silly and trying to bend the obvious truth mate, you're better than that.   

Mick I remember distinctly that you had massive issues with him and weren't even convinced we should buy him! I remember this because I was one of, if not the biggest Sturridge fan at the time and was 100% for the signing. All I heard from your side was that you'd heard from some lads at the pub that he's a bit brainless in terms of football and basically selfish or words to that effect and he's also got attitude problems. You seemed especially sold on the attitude problems as I remember, so unless all this happened in an incredibly vivid dream then I've no idea where you think I'm lying?

As for the "we", yes I knew how you were using it, you were using it to over-emphasise the squad short comings which was completely disingenuous. You can't disagree with Jürgen about squad depth, basically call him suicidal in his approach, bonkers and whatever other terms you chose and then suddenly impose your belief of Jürgen's opinion and ignore your own in summary. From everything Jürgen has said he rates Sturridge, listen to him talk and he talks incredibly highly of him, just because he isn't starting games doesn't mean he isn't rated or even close. For a similar example listen to how he describes Lucas as the best defensive midfielder we have, he doesn't start either, hence the fact that the depth is there or certainly a lot stronger than how you're now describing it.

Arguments about who said what, when aside, you simply cannot describe our current squad as having anything like strength of depth. Two goal keepers prone to making mistakes and costing us games, a brain dead left back whose positional awareness is somewhat less than Stevie Wonder's, an ageing defensive midfielder whose legs have gone as cover for centre back and an untested kid covering right back, and let's not even talk about Can right now given how bad he's been of late. That's nowhere near adequate and has far too much reliance on the under 23s.

We've seen over the last few matches just how thin this squad is. As for Sturridge, whilst Klopp says one thing, his actions say another. He won't change the system to accommodate him and rarely plays him outside of a cup match so it can hardly be said he fancys him. I've been saying it since the Summer; we simply haven't bought well enough to compete across multiple fronts and account for injuries and if we somehow manage to re-enter the title race and even more miraculously won it, it would be down to the failings of others rather than the strength of our squad. Having lots of players doesn't give you strength of depth. Having experienced talent does, and we simply don't have enough of that in our squad.

Arguments about who said what, when aside, you simply cannot describe our current squad as having anything like strength of depth. Two goal keepers prone to making mistakes and costing us games, a brain dead left back whose positional awareness is somewhat less than Stevie Wonder's, an ageing defensive midfielder whose legs have gone as cover for centre back and an untested kid covering right back, and let's not even talk about Can right now given how bad he's been of late. That's nowhere near adequate and has far too much reliance on the under 23s.

We've seen over the last few matches just how thin this squad is. As for Sturridge, whilst Klopp says one thing, his actions say another. He won't change the system to accommodate him and rarely plays him outside of a cup match so it can hardly be said he fancys him. I've been saying it since the Summer; we simply haven't bought well enough to compete across multiple fronts and account for injuries and if we somehow manage to re-enter the title race and even more miraculously won it, it would be down to the failings of others rather than the strength of our squad. Having lots of players doesn't give you strength of depth. Having experienced talent does, and we simply don't have enough of that in our squad.

Good post.

I think recently we have been too slow and ponderous on the ball. Before Xmas when we were flying we were very very direct, got to ball back and all broke forward. I don't see that happening at the moment, we win the call back and the man in possession has no options.

Whether that's intentional or not I don't know, but that fast, direct footbal served us very well under Brendan's 'nearly' season and has served us well thus far this season (in the main).

Arguments about who said what, when aside, you simply cannot describe our current squad as having anything like strength of depth. Two goal keepers prone to making mistakes and costing us games, a brain dead left back whose positional awareness is somewhat less than Stevie Wonder's, an ageing defensive midfielder whose legs have gone as cover for centre back and an untested kid covering right back, and let's not even talk about Can right now given how bad he's been of late. That's nowhere near adequate and has far too much reliance on the under 23s.

We've seen over the last few matches just how thin this squad is. As for Sturridge, whilst Klopp says one thing, his actions say another. He won't change the system to accommodate him and rarely plays him outside of a cup match so it can hardly be said he fancys him. I've been saying it since the Summer; we simply haven't bought well enough to compete across multiple fronts and account for injuries and if we somehow manage to re-enter the title race and even more miraculously won it, it would be down to the failings of others rather than the strength of our squad. Having lots of players doesn't give you strength of depth. Having experienced talent does, and we simply don't have enough of that in our squad.

Spot on.

From everything Jürgen has said he rates Sturridge, listen to him talk and he talks incredibly highly of him, just because he isn't starting games doesn't mean he isn't rated or even close.

He said the same about Benteke before he fu**ed him off and Mignolet before he brought Karius in and dropped Mig.

Wouldn't read too much in to what he says about players who are clearly struggling under him.