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      Pre Match : Hoffenheim v Liverpool FC : Tues 15, 19.45

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      heimdall
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      Re: Pre Match : Hoffenheim v Liverpool FC : Tues 15, 19.45
      Reply #92: Aug 15, 2017 12:57:05 pm
      Of course you would.

      Have a look at the defenders and midfielders from 2004, and not one of our starting eleven defenders or midfielders would get ahead of the cohort from 2004. Lallana would push for a spot, and want away Coutinho may make the starting eleven, but he may not be making that in 16 days time.

      And Funnily enough, our midfield and our defence are our weakest links.

      Dudek, Finnan, Hyypia, Carragher, Riise > Mignolet, TAA, Matip, Lovren, Moreno

      Gerrard, Alonso, Hamann, Garica, Kewell, Smicer
      > Henderson, Can, Gini, Gruijic Lallana (inj), Coutinho (wants away)

      Morientes, Cisse, Baros, Pongolle > Firmino, Salah, Mane, Sturridge, Origi, Solanke


                                         Dudek/Mig

                Finnan            Hyypia       Carra           Riise

                           Gerrard    Hamann    Alonso

                                          Coutinho

                                Mane                 Firmino     

                         


      Rafa had a better base 11 and that squad managed to get a European cup.

      If Klopp has the better squad, we shouldn't be fretting about the group stages never mind Hoffenheim.


      Hmm you seem to be cherry pickign injuries a bit, i seem to recall kewell being injured a fair bit but its an interesting comparison.

      No doubt the defence was better back then but Riise was not quite as good as many remember, he was very much in th eMoreno mold of great going forwards wobbly at defending but CB pairing and Finnan no contest although TAA arguably better going forwards.

      Midfield I'd almost call a draw, maybe the 2004 one just shading it.

      But in attack the current team is miles ahead of where we were in 2004.


      It would actually be interesting to see the 2 teams play each other, but the question was about squad strength not first XI strength and beyond the first XI in 2004 the quality fell very very sharply and that I think is a bit better in this squad although it could of course be even better.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: Pre Match : Hoffenheim v Liverpool FC : Tues 15, 19.45
      Reply #93: Aug 15, 2017 01:07:32 pm
      No doubt the defence was better back then but Riise was not quite as good as many remember, he was very much in th eMoreno mold of great going forwards wobbly at defending

      Haha you cannot be serious. Riise was in the "Moreno mold"? Wtf. When has Moreno ever been "great" at anything, let alone going forward?

      Riise was twenty times better.

      That whole back four was vastly better than our current one.

      EDIT: However it's important to remember that in the Champions League we mostly played with Djimi Traoré at left back and Riise as left winger, due to our many injuries (Kewell, Smicer etc). Traoré is one of the worst players to have ever played for us on a regular basis.
      Benito
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      Re: Pre Match : Hoffenheim v Liverpool FC : Tues 15, 19.45
      Reply #94: Aug 15, 2017 01:13:51 pm
      So ignoring the palava that is the transfer window, lets switch the focus back to the antics on the pitch.

      This will be a tough challenge away to Hoffenheim - they play expansive front foot forward football, but we should have more than enough firepower to blow them away. I'm backing a high scoring game; 1) we cant defend, 2) away goals count, and we tend to thrive when space opens up.  The Can/Henderson/Wjnaldum combo didn't work at the weekend, so I'd drop one and move Bobby back into a 10/false 9 role, off a striker.

      My lineup;

                                   Migs
      TAA           Matip               Lovren         Robertson
                      Henderson       Wjnaldum
         Salah                Firmino               Mane
                                 Solanke


      Bobby has to get his name on the scoresheet, but i think we should go with a more direct approach today. I think Robertson will come in to provide some much needed service into the box, while our magic trio linger around Solanke for knock downs/second balls. Might not be pretty, buts its away in Europe and we need to impose some physicality to secure a 2 goal lead heading into the second leg.
      Mickred
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      Re: Pre Match : Hoffenheim v Liverpool FC : Tues 15, 19.45
      Reply #95: Aug 15, 2017 01:25:49 pm
      I would settle for a 0-1.  Clean very important now :kop5cf8koxp6:
      FL Red
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      Re: Pre Match : Hoffenheim v Liverpool FC : Tues 15, 19.45
      Reply #96: Aug 15, 2017 01:45:10 pm
      And this is an interesting read on their revolutionary, 30-year-old coach:

      Julian Nagelsmann: the 30-year-old coach out to wreck Liverpool’s hopes
      Hoffenheim’s guiding spirit, who has his best ideas while taking his morning bath, is a true innovator and always challenges his players to improve

      The Frankfurter Rundschau called it a Schnapsidee, an idea that was so outlandish it could only have come about under the influence of alcohol. Rhein-Neckar-Zeitung described it as a “PR-gag”, an opportunity for one of the smaller Bundesliga clubs to get some nationwide and even worldwide publicity. And perhaps the scepticism was inevitable.

      Hoffenheim, deep in relegation trouble, had just responded to the news that their hugely experienced manager, Huub Stevens, was leaving due to health problems by appointing the under-19s coach, Julian Nagelsmann, in his place. Nagelsmann’s inexperience was one thing but above all it was his age that stood out: he was 28.

      His appointment, which came on 11 February, 2016, made him the youngest ever coach in the Bundesliga and he had not even finished his coaching qualifications. Five players in that Hoffenheim squad were older than him. The club were seven points adrift of safety. It had all the potential to end in tears. But it did not. In fact, his appointment has been an utter triumph. Hoffenheim avoided relegation at the end of the 2015-16 season and finished fourth the next, which is why the now 30-year-old is preparing to take on Liverpool in the Champions League play-off first leg on Tuesday.

      And, as far as Hoffenheim were concerned, Nagelsmann’s appointment was never a gamble. As the club’s sporting director, Alexander Rosen, said at the unveiling: “Twenty-eight. It sounds brutal doesn’t it? But it is definitely not a PR stunt. We are completely convinced he will be a success. He is unbelievably mature and has already been coaching for 10 years.

      “When you see him on the training pitch, when you see how he coaches the players and when you see, despite his age, the natural authority he possesses you realise that he really is something special.”

      The new coach immediately impressed the players with his tactical knowledge and his confident demeanour. Nagelsmann’s plan was quietly to take players aside one at a time to point out a tactical issue every now and then rather than to act like a “loudmouth” who shouted at the whole squad in order to earn respect. It worked.

      Nagelsmann is very mature for his age. He was forced to retire from playing at the age of 20 after persistent knee injuries and at around the same time his father died. At one point it was almost too much for him to deal with and he considered quitting football altogether.

      “It was tough,” he said in an interview with the Frankfurter Allgemeine last year. “I had to grow up a lot quicker than a lot of others. I had already been living on my own since I was 15 – cooking for myself, doing all the shopping and so on – and then when my dad died I had to help my mum to sell the old house, find a new one. That’s a lot for a 20-year-old to take on. All that happened was extremely tough but it also taught me that there are things far more important in life than football and I think it helped me mature. In football we shouldn’t take ourselves too seriously. You just have to turn on the news on the TV in the evening to realise straight away how unimportant you are as a Bundesliga coach.”

      Nagelsmann’s self-distance is a key component to his and Hoffenheim’s success and so is his constant desire to develop. He was helped along the way by a certain Thomas Tuchel, who was coach at Augsburg, the club Nagelsmann played for when he was forced to retire. Tuchel recognised what a good tactical mind Nagelsmann had and asked him to become his opposition scout.

      “Tuchel saved me,” Nagelsmann told 11Freunde in 2013. “I was sick of football. I had sacrificed my whole youth for football and then, bang, overnight, it was all over. I didn’t want anything to do with football. But when he asked me to become opposition scout it was a win-win situation for everyone. I still had a contract with Augsburg and I could help him.”

      Nagelsmann arrived at Hoffenheim in 2010 to become co-coach of the under-17 team. Two and a half years later, as a 25-year-old, he was suddenly promoted to assistant coach under Frank Kramer for the first team. He continued under Marco Kurz before returning to the under-19s until his big moment came in February 2016.

      Nagelsmann – who admits he has an awful lot of energy, “sometimes too much” – says he has his best ideas in the bath in the morning. “I’m there in the bathroom with a ruler and a pencil thinking about ideas. I then draw my idea on a notepad. Later I look at whether that thought is even realistic, search for video clips and then, if I still think it is a good idea, I try it out on my team.”

      Nagelsmann rarely chooses the same formation in consecutive games – in the 14 games that kept Hoffenheim up in 2015-16 they only lined up with the same tactic three times – and while he admits he can “exhaust” the players with his constant tinkering he also feels that it helps them develop.

      “It is extremely important to keep players stimulated all the time, in training and in games,” he has said. “Football is actually pretty limited and there are only really four phases: When you have the ball yourself, when the opponent has the ball and when you win the ball or lose the ball. That is football, really, there isn’t more to it.”

      “You can practice these four phases with thousands and thousands of exercises in training, with new rules, new formations and so on, but key is that the player is alert all the time and thinks about what he is doing. It is also important that the players are happy with what they are doing. True, they earn a lot of money but their existence can be quite repetitive and there for you have to vary trainings sessions and make sure they are enjoying what they are doing.”

      The Hoffenheim manager’s tactical outlook is not dissimilar to that of his opposite number on Tuesday, JĂŒrgen Klopp: pressing, gegenpressing and, as one paper described it last year, “chaos” in defence. Nagelsmann wants his players to force opponents into mistakes by crowding them out and putting pressure on them then hit them on the counterattack.

      He also, in common with one of his role models, Pep Guardiola, does not want his players to tackle too much. “There are too many unknown quantities in tackles,” he said. “The ball can fall here, fall there, take a bounce, go out for a throw-in or end up at an opposition player’s feet. The referee can give a free-kick to us or to our opponent. Nah, I am not too keen on tackles. I much prefer us to win the ball by pressuring the opponent into a mistake, that we cut off his angles so that he makes a mistake when he tries to find a team-mate with a difficult pass. And then, when we get the ball, we need to be quick in order to be able to create a chance and then it’s better and the player is fresher when he hasn’t had to make five tackles before starting an attack.”

      His training sessions are legendary. He is arguably the greatest innovator in the Bundesliga. Bild called him a “rule-revolutionary” and listed some of his thoughts: he wants to have one transfer window, from February until mid-May – he would like two time-outs per half to allow the manager to react to what is going on. He is also in favour of two, tennis-style, Hawk-Eye challenges per team per game at the behest of the manager while he wants more substitutions and has suggested five-minute sin-bins instead of yellow cards.

      Nagelsmann simply never stops. Hoffenheim are one of only two clubs (Borussia Dortmund is the other) to use the Footbonaut training centre, where balls are hit to players at speed to improve their control and decision making, and this summer he erected a video wall at the club’s training ground.

      A huge 6mx3m screen was placed on the halfway line and he then used four cameras, two of them from adjacent towers, to watch the training session. When he spots something, he stops training, rewinds and plays the offending clip on the giant screen. “I have an iPad in my hand that I can use to control the cameras. When I stop a situation, I have the opportunity to draw my solutions and suggestions for improvement, all from the iPad,” he explained.

      Kevin Kurányi, the former Stuttgart, Schalke and Hoffenheim striker who played 52 times for Germany and who was one of the squad members who was older than Nagelsmann when he took over, once said: “I had a lot of great managers as a player but to be able to experience him was really interesting. I had never experienced a training session like his, a training session that was so demanding for the head.

      “But I really liked it. When you didn’t concentrate completely for the full two hours by the exercises you had no chance. Every player must think about what they are doing the whole time, otherwise you are out and mocked by your team-mates. The success of Hoffenheim is first and foremost because of him. I think that one day he will coach Bayern Munich.”

      Nagelsmann was voted 2016-17 Bundesliga coach of the year by the league’s players, way ahead of RB Leipzig’s Ralph HasenhĂŒttl and Bayern’s Carlo Ancelotti, and this summer extended his contract to 2021. He also continued to freshen things up by letting his players decide the club captain – they kept faith in Eugen Polanski – as well as this season’s targets.

      This week all the focus is on the Liverpool game and the upcoming Bundesliga season. Hoffenheim have lost two of their best players, Niklas SĂŒle and Sebastian Rudy, to Bayern Munich for a combined ÂŁ19.3m and have bought modestly with the ÂŁ3.1m capture of Borussia Mönchengladbach’s Nico Schulz the most expensive signing so far. The former Arsenal player Serge Gnabry has joined on loan from Bayern.

      The new season is likely to be the most exciting in Nagelsmann’s short spell in charge, but perhaps also the most difficult. Just like he wants it.

      https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/aug/15/hoffenheim-julian-nagelsmann-liverpool-champions-league?CMP=share_btn_tw
      Wow great read, is it bad that I'm now even more worried about this tie?
      Beerbelly
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      Re: Pre Match : Hoffenheim v Liverpool FC : Tues 15, 19.45
      Reply #97: Aug 15, 2017 01:45:26 pm
      Hmm you seem to be cherry pickign injuries a bit, i seem to recall kewell being injured a fair bit but its an interesting comparison.

      No doubt the defence was better back then but Riise was not quite as good as many remember, he was very much in th eMoreno mold of great going forwards wobbly at defending but CB pairing and Finnan no contest although TAA arguably better going forwards.

      Midfield I'd almost call a draw, maybe the 2004 one just shading it.

      But in attack the current team is miles ahead of where we were in 2004.


      It would actually be interesting to see the 2 teams play each other, but the question was about squad strength not first XI strength and beyond the first XI in 2004 the quality fell very very sharply and that I think is a bit better in this squad although it could of course be even better.

      Thing is, if 3 of your current squad are nailed on starters in the two juxtaposed teams then this straight away highlights the lack of quality you have. Which is why it's weaker. Because it only gets weaker from there on in. If your first eleven aren't that great then it is hardly a ringing endorsement for the rest of your squad - and in our case a lot of unproven youth.

      Bottom line is, You think this squad is well equipped to tackle the league, CL, and FA cup, I don't.
      TheleftpegofRayKennedy
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      Re: Pre Match : Hoffenheim v Liverpool FC : Tues 15, 19.45
      Reply #98: Aug 15, 2017 01:49:49 pm
      I think there has to be an attacking emphasis tonight, because I think away goals will settle this. 

      Bet your life they'll get at least one at Anfield!

      Solanke to start. 

      Firmino as No.10.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: Pre Match : Hoffenheim v Liverpool FC : Tues 15, 19.45
      Reply #99: Aug 15, 2017 01:52:07 pm
      Wow great read, is it bad that I'm now even more worried about this tie?


      I'm a bit worried as well, but the truth is they lost two key players in Rudy and Sule and we've got much more quality, especially in attack. We should be able to beat them regardless of the great job their coach is doing over there.

      However it does make me feel sad that one of the teams has to go. It would've been great to see Nagelsmann rewarded with a place in the group stage, but not at the expense of LFC of course!
      heimdall
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      Re: Pre Match : Hoffenheim v Liverpool FC : Tues 15, 19.45
      Reply #100: Aug 15, 2017 01:52:41 pm
      Haha you cannot be serious. Riise was in the "Moreno mold"? Wtf. When has Moreno ever been "great" at anything, let alone going forward?

      Riise was twenty times better.

      That whole back four was vastly better than our current one.

      EDIT: However it's important to remember that in the Champions League we mostly played with Djimi Traoré at left back and Riise as left winger, due to our many injuries (Kewell, Smicer etc). Traoré is one of the worst players to have ever played for us on a regular basis.

      I am serious actually, Riise great going forwards, shaky at deference, not terrible but not great either.
      heimdall
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      Re: Pre Match : Hoffenheim v Liverpool FC : Tues 15, 19.45
      Reply #101: Aug 15, 2017 01:57:35 pm
      Thing is, if 3 of your current squad are nailed on starters in the two juxtaposed teams then this straight away highlights the lack of quality you have. Which is why it's weaker. Because it only gets weaker from there on in. If your first eleven aren't that great then it is hardly a ringing endorsement for the rest of your squad - and in our case a lot of unproven youth.

      Bottom line is, You think this squad is well equipped to tackle the league, CL, and FA cup, I don't.

      Hmm it depends how much of a difference there is between the players, for example Henderson and Hamman, I accept Hamman is better but is he much better, no probably not. But I still think you have to factor in the squad depth and in 2004 there literally was none hence via Riise had to play as Left Wing almost as often as LB. teh squad is deeper now although the first XI back then was probably just about better although I'm not 100% certain about it, i think we may have been able to outscore them.

      Anyway its all academic and I totally agree that our current squad could and should be stronger.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: Pre Match : Hoffenheim v Liverpool FC : Tues 15, 19.45
      Reply #102: Aug 15, 2017 02:01:23 pm
      I am serious actually, Riise great going forwards, shaky at deference, not terrible but not great either.

      How is great going forwards the Moreno mold? That implies Moreno is great going forward, do you actually believe that? Riise was a hundred times the player Moreno is, even if you think he wasn't great defensively.
      Ribapuru
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      Re: Pre Match : Hoffenheim v Liverpool FC : Tues 15, 19.45
      Reply #103: Aug 15, 2017 02:24:11 pm
      I am serious actually, Riise great going forwards, shaky at deference, not terrible but not great either.
      He was good for a while but at the back he got worse and worse. I believe he scored 2 own goals and was pretty much accountable for a semi final loss to Chelsea in the champions league. It was a bad away goal to give Chelsea when we were winning 1-0.
      American Red
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      Re: Pre Match : Hoffenheim v Liverpool FC : Tues 15, 19.45
      Reply #104: Aug 15, 2017 02:32:06 pm
      He was good for a while but at the back he got worse and worse. I believe he scored 2 own goals and was pretty much accountable for a semi final loss to Chelsea in the champions league. It was a bad away goal to give Chelsea when we were winning 1-0.

      F*ck me. Sad to think how good we were on the world stage just a decade ago and how exciting of a team we were capable of going anywhere and setting the tone against the best sides in the world and now we're in this spot worrying about a match at Hoffenheim.

      Really hope we win this sh*t in ferocious style and get ourselves back to those types of nights.
      ruthcity
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      Re: Pre Match : Hoffenheim v Liverpool FC : Tues 15, 19.45
      Reply #105: Aug 15, 2017 02:45:13 pm
      Worried. Our defence is for the taking. Every corner is a real chance for them to score.

      Any encouragement on our defence apart from our strong strike force?
      TheleftpegofRayKennedy
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      Re: Pre Match : Hoffenheim v Liverpool FC : Tues 15, 19.45
      Reply #106: Aug 15, 2017 02:48:04 pm
      F*ck me. Sad to think how good we were on the world stage just a decade ago and how exciting of a team we were capable of going anywhere and setting the tone against the best sides in the world and now we're in this spot worrying about a match at Hoffenheim.

      Really hope we win this sh*t in ferocious style and get ourselves back to those types of nights.

      Spot-on.  We do need to raise our expectations, as a club, certainly.  Funny how current reality keeps on creeping in to the conversation, though!
      LondonRed83
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      Re: Pre Match : Hoffenheim v Liverpool FC : Tues 15, 19.45
      Reply #107: Aug 15, 2017 02:50:16 pm
      He was good for a while but at the back he got worse and worse. I believe he scored 2 own goals and was pretty much accountable for a semi final loss to Chelsea in the champions league. It was a bad away goal to give Chelsea when we were winning 1-0.

      F***ing loved Riise!
      American Red
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      Re: Pre Match : Hoffenheim v Liverpool FC : Tues 15, 19.45
      Reply #108: Aug 15, 2017 02:56:23 pm
      Worried. Our defence is for the taking. Every corner is a real chance for them to score.

      Any encouragement on our defence apart from our strong strike force?

      I think our defensive issues start with our midfield. Hendo, Can, and Gini can't control possession or breakdown attacks ahead of them making it to our back four - let alone boss a game or dictate the tempo. If we get a proper #6 sorted out, we'll see a huge improvement.

      Surely you noticed how Lovren was playing 5-10 yards ahead of Matip almost the entire game against Watford. There's a reason for that and it's because our midfield is completely incapable defensively. That has effects on the rest of the team.

      The corner itself on Watford was Bobby's mistake as well - not all that defensively related - more of a coaching mistake in making them play zone rather than man-to-man. Confusions are bound to happen, especially when your keeper and captain don't seem to like to open their mouths. I can tell you if Carra was out there, that wouldn't have happened, and if it did, youo could take it to the bank that it wouldn't have happened a second time.

      The second goal was a mistake from TAA - should be expected from an 18 year-old playing in a PL opener. The third was in my opinion 95% Migs not being a strong enough keeper to push Britos off. Instead he decided to squirm his body alongside the post. 5% Gini for the clearance. Klopp takes a fair amount for the build up to it as well by making a critical mistake in taking TAA off the pitch and disrupting the backline.

      I don't think that our backline was all that terrible in Watford. I think we have defensive issues for certain, but the brunt of those lie within the coaching, the midfield, and the keeper IMO rather than the personnel of our backline.
      American Red
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      Re: Pre Match : Hoffenheim v Liverpool FC : Tues 15, 19.45
      Reply #109: Aug 15, 2017 03:09:32 pm
      Spot-on.  We do need to raise our expectations, as a club, certainly.  Funny how current reality keeps on creeping in to the conversation, though!

      Unfortunately, reality has a tendency of doing that.  ;D

      We really do need to get back to that. Sick of this bullsh*t. Especially when the world class parts have been there to build around on how many different occasions now (Gerrard, Torres, Suarez, now Coutinho)? And we've failed to capitalize and put a world class squad around them and instead have settled for mediocrity hoping to get top 4 season after season.
      crouchinho
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      Re: Pre Match : Hoffenheim v Liverpool FC : Tues 15, 19.45
      Reply #110: Aug 15, 2017 03:34:54 pm
      4:45am on a F***ing Wednesday.

      Life was easier finishing 8th in the league.
      LondonRed83
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      Re: Pre Match : Hoffenheim v Liverpool FC : Tues 15, 19.45
      Reply #111: Aug 15, 2017 03:51:55 pm
      Quick out the blocks tonight. Confidence and precision.

      We can do this!!
      American Red
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      Re: Pre Match : Hoffenheim v Liverpool FC : Tues 15, 19.45
      Reply #112: Aug 15, 2017 03:53:39 pm
      4:45am on a f**king Wednesday.

      Life was easier finishing 8th in the league.

      4 hours til kickoff still. Get to bed while you can.  :lmao:
      HamannsTheMan
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      Re: Pre Match : Hoffenheim v Liverpool FC : Tues 15, 19.45
      Reply #113: Aug 15, 2017 04:08:23 pm
      Haha you cannot be serious. Riise was in the "Moreno mold"? Wtf. When has Moreno ever been "great" at anything, let alone going forward?

      Riise was twenty times better.

      That whole back four was vastly better than our current one.

      EDIT: However it's important to remember that in the Champions League we mostly played with Djimi Traoré at left back and Riise as left winger, due to our many injuries (Kewell, Smicer etc). Traoré is one of the worst players to have ever played for us on a regular basis.

      Riise was a very poor defender but scored a few screamers during his time. As a result, many seem to remember him as a good player but that wasn't exactly true.

      Aurelio was far better but had an even worse injury record than Sturridge.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: Pre Match : Hoffenheim v Liverpool FC : Tues 15, 19.45
      Reply #114: Aug 15, 2017 04:14:03 pm
      Riise was a very poor defender but scored a few screamers during his time. As a result, many seem to remember him as a good player but that wasn't exactly true.

      Aurelio was far better but had an even worse injury record than Sturridge.

      I disagree completely. I disagreed at the time as well, it's not a matter of nostalgia. He was a far better defender than he was given credit for. He was part of a very strong defensive unit for a long time, but no attacking fullback will ever be perfect in defense, for the perfectly good reason that it is impossible. Some people like to rave about Roberto Carlos, for example, ignoring that his attacking instinct left a lot of space at the back (leading Scolari to playing with 3 defenders in 2002) or Paolo Maldini, who was a brilliant defender but not half as good as Roberto Carlos going forward. The thing is it is nearly impossible to be great at both things. Riise was very good going forward and adequate at the back, far from the sh*t defender some make him out to be. We had a decent balance with Finnan on the right who was very reliable defensively, although he didn't contribute much in attack.

      Aurelio was also good, but I'd still have Riise ahead of him.

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