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      The defence, a discussion

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      Magillionare
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #23: Oct 01, 2017 02:09:00 pm
      Our defence will never be good with a clown as our last line of it. It is no coincidence Mignolet doesn't have 1 trophy in his cabinet.
      bigmick
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #24: Oct 01, 2017 02:35:40 pm
      Our defence will never be good with a clown as our last line of it. It is no coincidence Mignolet doesn't have 1 trophy in his cabinet.

      Fair enough mate but if we were judging the squad by that criteria, it'd only have about four blokes left in it I should think!
      Dmasta
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #25: Oct 01, 2017 02:51:05 pm
      No matter how much we like to think VVD would have been the answer to all our problems, it really wouldn't have been. He'd have been a vast improvement for sure but until we replace that complete and utter clown in goal we will always ship goals no matter how good our defence is.
      We've signed Robertson who looks quite tidy, certainly looks an upgrade on Moreno and Milner but he seems to be way down the pecking order for some reason.

      Look at under Rafa when we had Pepe in goal and we had 3 class CB's in Carra, Hyypia and Agger. One of the main things they had in common aside from actually being capable of defending was that them 3 and Reina were all vocal and had leadership about them. Somebody dropped out of position or was sloppy and they'd soon let them know about it. When we concede a goal Migs and whoever is playing in defence all look like they are wanting to hide away in a corner, that includes Matip!

      Can't remember who it was out of Matip and Lovren but one of them said the CBs spend the whole game talking German to each other, we've got Moreno who's been at he club 3/4 years now but can barely speak a word of English. There is just never any proper communication going on within our defence and it's been like this for years now. It's like the keeper, RB, CB and LB are all playing a different game to one another. Nobody has the bollocks to take charge. When we let in a goal or nearly let in a goal, the look on their faces is instantly like they don't care because of the threat of our attack to other teams. The fact Migs picked the ball out his net 7 times from about 10/11 attempts against City is abysmal but that's standard with him, let in what is it, 11 goals in 4/5 games this season?

      Klopp is on his 3rd season now, it's about time he got a grip on that defence, he's doing a lot of talking about how it should have been done but I don't see any improvement because the same things keep happening. Needs to stop wasting money on the likes of Ox and actually improve the areas of the team that really need it.

      Completely agree about the lack of leaders, I don't think I watched a match that Carra was involved in that you couldn't hear him shouting instructions to his teammates.

      On the point about Migs I remember when we signed him and for all his failings in commanding his box and coming out for crosses he was arguably one of the best pure shot stoppers in the league yet he's gone backwards in what should be the time of his career that he should be hitting his peak. Then there's Karius, a highly rated and extremely self confident young goalkeeper who comes in and plays like a nervous wreck aswell as Pepe going backwards in his last season with us. As far as I'm concerned that's a damning indictment on Achterberg our goalkeeping coach.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #26: Oct 02, 2017 11:27:54 pm
      https://twitter.com/DistanceCovered/status/914528553462583302

      Excellent analysis here and credit to Corbs for retweeting this. Showing at the end how VvD would look different in very similar shape and defending that we get into.

      Very interesting this, well worth your time, pause to read the analysis as it goes, enjoy! (Or not at our defenders, but at the prospect of VvD changing at least some of our issues).
      racerx34
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #27: Oct 02, 2017 11:32:18 pm
      https://twitter.com/DistanceCovered/status/914528553462583302

      Excellent analysis here and credit to Corbs for retweeting this. Showing at the end how VvD would look different in very similar shape and defending that we get into.

      Very interesting this, well worth your time, pause to read the analysis as it goes, enjoy! (Or not at our defenders, but at the prospect of VvD changing at least some of our issues).

      Except VvD would be passing back to Mignolet.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #28: Oct 02, 2017 11:33:50 pm
      Except VvD would be passing back to Mignolet.

      Ward will be our number 1 by next year, or Oblak... :D Please, not another year of Migs, why plant that thought in my head?
      racerx34
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #29: Oct 02, 2017 11:35:36 pm
      Ward will be our number 1 by next year, or Oblak... :D Please, not another year of Migs, why plant that thought in my head?

      It's in mine. Thought I'd share.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #30: Oct 02, 2017 11:39:10 pm
      It's in mine. Thought I'd share.

      Unfortunately I think you just doubled the problem, not halved it!

      :lmao:
      Danzel
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #31: Oct 03, 2017 01:09:33 am
      https://twitter.com/DistanceCovered/status/914528553462583302

      Excellent analysis here and credit to Corbs for retweeting this. Showing at the end how VvD would look different in very similar shape and defending that we get into.

      Very interesting this, well worth your time, pause to read the analysis as it goes, enjoy! (Or not at our defenders, but at the prospect of VvD changing at least some of our issues).

      Very interesting indeed and that actually highlights two things for me:

      1. The CB's themselves
      2. The starting position of our goalkeeper and his 1 vs 1 ability

      1. The CB's

      The funny thing is, in terms of 'skillsets' both Lovren and Matip should complement each other perfectly. Lovren the more agressive one winning / attacking most of the high balls and Matip with a bit more pace sweeping behind him. I don't know what it is with the two though, seems to be a lack of understanding / communication.

      Before people get their knickers in a twist, our CB's aren't the best out there, not at all, but the criticism they often face is somewhat undeserved in certain situations in my opinion and that analysis shows why. The space they sometimes have to defend and the decisions they have to make are so big and difficult.

      It also highlights what I've been trying to explain so often: why not just any CB can play in our system. All the claims that "there's hundreds of CB's out there who can improve us" are simply not true. Do people really think that if there had been another CB available similar to Van Dijk, that Klopp wouldn't have tried to get him? Van Dijk (if fit and at his best) is exactly what we need and he can play both roles: the sweeper (as highlighted in the analysis because he anticipates the pass and has the pace to make up ground) but he's also agressive in attacking the ball, the perfect mix and able to play with any partner next to him (a more passive Matip or an agressive Lovren). I really hope Klopp gets his man.

      2. The goalkeeper

      Very simply put it looks like this (sorry for amateurish image):



      That's the difference a pro-active goalkeeper makes in helping defend the space in behind the CB's. It's also why I desperately want to see Karius in goal for the rest of the season. He's no worse than Mignolet at the things Mignolet is supposedly good at, but he offers so much more in terms of pro-active defending as the last man and quick, precise distribution. He's also much better than Mignolet in these 1 vs 1 situations.

      Just imagine for a second a defence with Van Dijk and Karius (or any sweeping goalkeeper). Not only would the space our CB's have to defend be smaller, with Van Dijk we'd also have more pace to defend the space. The combination of both makes defending with a high line no problem at all because any ball by the opposition would have to be inch perfect in behind the space of our CB's and in front of the space of our goalkeeper.
      siavashiva
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #32: Oct 03, 2017 03:54:07 am

      I know this video is about something else, but did anyone notice how weak Mignolet reacts in all of those situations? I mean this is not a "highlight" video of his numerous fuckups but still a decent keeper would've probably saved half of those shots. And then maybe we wouldn't be talking about how shitty our defense is. Are Smalling and Jones really much better than our defenders?
      « Last Edit: Oct 03, 2017 04:02:06 am by siavashiva »
      Diego LFC
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #33: Oct 03, 2017 04:48:59 am
      2. The goalkeeper

      Very simply put it looks like this (sorry for amateurish image):



      That's the difference a pro-active goalkeeper makes in helping defend the space in behind the CB's. It's also why I desperately want to see Karius in goal for the rest of the season. He's no worse than Mignolet at the things Mignolet is supposedly good at, but he offers so much more in terms of pro-active defending as the last man and quick, precise distribution. He's also much better than Mignolet in these 1 vs 1 situations.

      Just imagine for a second a defence with Van Dijk and Karius (or any sweeping goalkeeper). Not only would the space our CB's have to defend be smaller, with Van Dijk we'd also have more pace to defend the space. The combination of both makes defending with a high line no problem at all because any ball by the opposition would have to be inch perfect in behind the space of our CB's and in front of the space of our goalkeeper.

      I agree that would make a huge difference. Which is why I'm so disappointed in Klopp for not having improved on that position yet - I was hoping Karius would be that player, and his average position seems to be indeed further up the pitch in comparison to Mignolet, but so far he's failed to impress in the other aspects of his game, including on the ball.

      I was watching Sporting Clube de Braga the other day in the Europa League, and also in the Portuguese league, and was impressed with the sweeping work done by their goalkeeper Matheus, always ready to get out of the box and anticipate attacks, in nearly a reckless manner if I'm being honest... but then again I'm of the opinion that building from the back / GK sweeping is supposed to look uncomfortable, otherwise you're not doing it right, because then it would mean you're just playing safe (passing sideways all the time, or only anticipating easy balls you're certain to win) when the whole purpose is to know how to deal with danger and make good decisions under pressure.

      Anyway, this got me wondering how nice it would be to have a goalkeeper that quick to react and intervene if necessary. I'm not in any way advocating for us to actually sign Matheus, for all I know he's still very inexperienced and only playing because their first choice keeper is injured, but having someone with those skills would make a massive difference, I do agree with that.
      grooveshark
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #34: Oct 03, 2017 06:57:24 am
      There is nothing wrong with where the fullbacks are at, all top teams expect to get width from fullbacks/wingbacks with wide forwards/wingers tucked in, it is just how top teams have been playing for a long time as they prioritize more bodies in attack.

      The problem stems from midfield. There ought to be on midfielder sitting deeper than the rest, staying mostly central and cutting out that vertical pass in between the center backs and that does not seem to happen with Can/Henderson/Wijnaldum looking to make numbers higher up when pressing starts. As a consequence, you will have instances when the press is worked round, or a loss in a 50/50 ball like happened against City and you are on the back foot and a goal behind.

      Also lost is that the top teams always try and get other teams wide by denying passes that are direct in favor on passes out wide. Look at the game against City when Salah had joy, it was always wide, rarely did they leave John Stones at the mercy of a direct line pass from midfield to Firmino. The defenders may not be the best, but they are not being aided by the midfield, and the midfield. The midfield in itself is also not that great, and the emphasis on pressing being the primary source of chance creation also means it is a system issue more than anything else.
      Magillionare
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #35: Oct 03, 2017 07:02:33 am
      https://twitter.com/DistanceCovered/status/914528553462583302

      Excellent analysis here and credit to Corbs for retweeting this. Showing at the end how VvD would look different in very similar shape and defending that we get into.

      Very interesting this, well worth your time, pause to read the analysis as it goes, enjoy! (Or not at our defenders, but at the prospect of VvD changing at least some of our issues).

      This video makes we wonder about taking Chelsea's formation
      Beerbelly
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #36: Oct 03, 2017 07:04:48 am
      Well, the elephant in the room for me is the overload and commitment to attack; while leaving the back door wide open with no cover.

      Two full backs bombed forward simultaneously with no deep lying midfielder to cover. Asking for trouble, no wonder we get it.

      "But that's the system"

      "Exactly, that's the system".


      Dadorious
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #37: Oct 03, 2017 07:51:57 am
      This video makes we wonder about taking Chelsea's formation

      Need to have the right players and balance for it mate.

      Arsenal has taken in with mixed success.
      Magillionare
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #38: Oct 03, 2017 07:52:45 am
      Need to have the right players and balance for it mate.

      Arsenal has taken in with mixed success.

      True, we need another CB to do it well
      bigmick
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #39: Oct 03, 2017 08:44:39 am
      Well, the elephant in the room for me is the overload and commitment to attack; while leaving the back door wide open with no cover.

      Two full backs bombed forward simultaneously with no deep lying midfielder to cover. Asking for trouble, no wonder we get it.

      "But that's the system"

      "Exactly, that's the system".




      Good post mate. Football has always been about chain reactions. Not only is it no surprise we are vulnerable at the back, it's equally no wonder we are generally potent up top given we commit so many men so far forward.

      People say "Jürgen doesn't play with true holding midfielder, it's not part of his system" (mind you they used to say he doesn't make big money signings too so everything can change I guess). Looking at those images though means anyone can see that he really ought to consider starting to play one. Either that or tuck the full backs in a fair bit.

      Pragmatism is not a dirty word Blackadder; crevice, that's a dirty word.

      wellbuilt
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #40: Oct 03, 2017 08:55:42 am
      for me its simple

      our defenders cant defend

      individually they look a mess, get twisted inside out by ANYONE, they're very quick to slide/hack, they try to 'nick' 50/50 balls and typically mess up and seem unable to read the bounce of a ball

      The keeper has no command of his defence, the competition between the three is a shocking trial of the 'best of a bad bunch' and decision making seems poor too.

      as a unit they break under any type of pressure, they are disjointed and seem to save all they're talking until after they have messed up - and then come out screaming to the press.

      full backs dont stop crosses

      oh and they pass it amongst themselves far to often and its typically far to slow and allows the opposition to get back into shape.

      The central midfielders also become no existent in terms of defending our goal, ive seen one easy straight ball beat us time and time again.

      so frustrating as its has been going on for years.

      grooveshark
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #41: Oct 03, 2017 09:16:04 am
      Need to have the right players and balance for it mate.

      Arsenal has taken in with mixed success.
      Not really. The biggest problem with Arsenal is that they were solid at the end of last season when they were primarily a counter attacking outfit with that formation. At the start of this season, and all of pre season, they Wenger was busy playing people off their natural position, and trying to play far more possession based football similar to what they played with 4-2-3-1. Ramsey also did not have the discipline and was almost playing like a striker. So when Xhaka lost the ball, they were always looking at a clear cut chance being generated on the other side, and that was evidenced by the goals that they conceded early on in the season.

      So you had 8 goals conceded in the first three games, no clean sheets, one win, and two losses. They have followed that up with 6 wins in 7 games, the one draw being against Chelsea. They have now conceded 3 in seven games while keeping 5 clean sheets in 7 and 5 out of 10 for the season. In this early season form, they have already gone to Stamford Bridge, Anfield, and Britannia......places that they normally drop points.

      City have already beaten Chelsea (away) and Liverpool (at home), games that they did not win last season, and for the season, they have conceded only three goals; two in the league and one in the league cup.

      The biggest problem that is hard to understand is that these two teams are possibly the best possession teams in the league in terms of maintaining possession and finding openings in the other team's final third. These two teams more than anyone else in the league generally tend to have four or even 5 people in the opponent box looking to score. With the way Klopp has set up the team,it is get the ball to the forwards quick (something every big team tries when it is right) where you have quick transitions but far less in terms of support inside the box, yet still be so open in phases where a single pass can essentially nullify an entire defense. It is also surprising as to the amount of pressure the team can be under once another team gets a few passes in midfield to beat the press and just how little recovery there is from all of it. Other teams are playing far more open, yet seem to be more stable.........that is on the manager.

      bmck
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #42: Oct 03, 2017 09:59:24 am
      When it comes down to it, our 'philosophy' hasn't changed all that much under Jürgen. The focus is still on attack, and on strengthening attacking player options, the FBs getting forward, no traditional holding midfield player.
      Rodgers did it, and nearly won the league, but he had better attacking options, and SG.
      There's a lot of media about gegenpress, but this season saw some stats to say we're down the stats charts in that area compared with last season (closing, sprints, that kinda sh*te..). We pressed and closed under BR too, just didn't have a fancy German label.
      It's just now our defending is more under the scope cause goals have dried up somewhat and goals conceded have more cost.
      We've had the same problems defending for years now, and 2 years into Jurgens reign and we haven't much improved the quality of players back there, how the back 4 setup, keeper not commanding, and generally not defending well as a team from set pieces (it's not just the fault of CBs when we concede from free-kicks/corners).

      We don't have the balance right. If we're scoring more than we concede, hides it. But it's there, and has been there for years.

      Top striker, top keeper would be my first buys. But regardless of new signings, we could surely coach ourselves to be better at defending, though would be at expense of goals down the other end (unless one of the strikers we have hits a clinical streak)

      grooveshark
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #43: Oct 03, 2017 11:16:40 am
      When it comes down to it, our 'philosophy' hasn't changed all that much under Jürgen. The focus is still on attack, and on strengthening attacking player options, the FBs getting forward, no traditional holding midfield player.
      Rodgers did it, and nearly won the league, but he had better attacking options, and SG.
      There's a lot of media about gegenpress, but this season saw some stats to say we're down the stats charts in that area compared with last season (closing, sprints, that kinda sh*te..). We pressed and closed under BR too, just didn't have a fancy German label.
      It's just now our defending is more under the scope cause goals have dried up somewhat and goals conceded have more cost.
      We've had the same problems defending for years now, and 2 years into Jurgens reign and we haven't much improved the quality of players back there, how the back 4 setup, keeper not commanding, and generally not defending well as a team from set pieces (it's not just the fault of CBs when we concede from free-kicks/corners).

      We don't have the balance right. If we're scoring more than we concede, hides it. But it's there, and has been there for years.

      Top striker, top keeper would be my first buys. But regardless of new signings, we could surely coach ourselves to be better at defending, though would be at expense of goals down the other end (unless one of the strikers we have hits a clinical streak)
      Gareth Barry, Claude Makelele, Darren Fletcher, Gilberto Silva, Javier Mascherano, Dietmar Hamann, N'golo Kante. Off the bat, these are the last pure defensive midfielders that City, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool have used in prior years......and even when Manchester United were playing Scholes and Keane, they did not have a pure defensive midfielder. So it is not something that is a necessity for a top team to compete as long as the players understand the tactical setup employed. Bayern Munich went on to win the Champions League with Juup Heynckes playing Javi Martinez as a defensive midfielder, but they have been competing without one since he left. Juventus have essentially been playing with three central midfielders, or Marchisio who was converted from an attacking midfielder to what is essentially a deep lying playmaker when he has been fit.

      For this season, Pep Guardiola noticed that he had to replace his aging fullbacks.....and he bought three fullbacks and a goalkeeper. He then changed his formation to better shield John Stones and that is something that is now being seen even though it is early days in the league. Personnel may have changed, the formation may have changed, but the philosophy has remained the same so that there is a bridging between how the team goes about business on the pitch and the results that they aspire to achieve.

      Some say that a goalkeeper that comes off his line early would be so much better than Mignolet......I have even read of how that ought to be Karius in the interim. A better striker, a better keeper with the same setup does not solve the problem that is in midfield, defensive lapses in the backline. You would essentially facing the same problems thinking that you can outscore teams.

      I said this in another post. Liverpool has 2 clean sheets in 10 games this season, 2 clean sheets in 12 if you were to include the qualifiers. In short, you are in a situation where have to plan on how you are going to score a minimum of two goals in every game to try and get a win, and at times, that may be good enough for just a draw.

      As for the pressing, there was an article in The Times.

      https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/klopps-pressing-problem-x53dq6zhh

      There is a huge difference when it comes to having a single game per week, and playing youth in cup games, to having to play your first team in the Champions League, having to travel outside the country as opposed to going Swansea as the furthest destination once a year.....several times if you draw them in the cup. Rodgers hit this wall when the team had extra games to play, Antonio Conte generally struggled with it even when he was at Juventus, and in the time that Klopp has been here, he has struggled with multiple games.

      Some of these problems can be solved only by hitting the market and doing business that makes sense. The team needed a CB or two, a starting LB. None of those materialized, Matip is less reliable, Lovren and Klavan still make the same mistakes, and with Arnold and Gomez starting well, they soon hit a dip yet some would argue that this is a department that does not need investing? Not for me.

      There are days when your attack is not up for it, these happen; in those days, one needs the defense to hold firm and hope that forwards/anyone can take care of one or two good chances that each team gets a game. If not, you will be looking at an uphill struggle each and every season.

      billythered
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #44: Oct 03, 2017 12:29:10 pm
      Slightly off topic here but , ...

      It appears now that Catalonia will become a state in its own right and therefore could see the end of Barcelona fc as we know it, the question being that the Spanish FA refusing to recognise Barca and not allow them to play in la liga....

      So, would it then not be a good idea to get tabs on Suarez since its unlikely he'll be wearing their shirt sometime in the very near future ??

      YNWA
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #45: Oct 03, 2017 12:33:41 pm
      Slightly off topic here but , ...

      It appears now that Catalonia will become a state in its own right and therefore could see the end of Barcelona fc as we know it, the question being that the Spanish FA refusing to recognise Barca and not allow them to play in la liga....

      So, would it then not be a good idea to get tabs on Suarez since its unlikely he'll be wearing their shirt sometime in the very near future ??

      YNWA

      With his current form it could happen sooner

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