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      The defence, a discussion

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      bmck
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #69: Oct 03, 2017 07:54:51 pm
      Which begs the question, why why why does Klopp continue to play Migs?

      He's not playing Karius, for the same reasons he's not playing AOC.  Because right now both are sh*te.
      This is not to say they will remain sh*te, but they both need to seriously up their games to make inroads into the first team.
      Maybe Karius does sweep a bit better than Migs, but the bread and butter needs to improve hugely.
      Can only assume Ward hasn't been showing enough in training to get more of a look in.
      Who would've thought Migs would still be our no.1 today?!  And we're not more up in arms. When it comes to management, their doing a good with our expectations...
      bmck
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #70: Oct 03, 2017 08:04:49 pm
      Hmm... 🤔

      He brought both Klavan and Matip in from Germany so that theory really doesn't stand up to too much scrutiny mate, unless... unless you're inferring he thinks 'once bitten, twice shy.'

      AND...

      Not forgetting, of course, that his other centre-half actually came from the P.L. unless... unless you believe Jürgen is actually thinking 'we need more just like that'. 😊

      Nah. More like the T.C's options [B, C & D] were even more pish than what we have. In my opinion, obviously. 👍

      Whatever happened to Steven Caulker!?
      Even if we sign VVD, there's no guarantee it'll significantly improve things at the back. Likely will help, he's a good player, but he's just one guy.
      And if anyone agrees that we don't defend well as a team, our system can leave the defense exposed, and our organisation back there is not as tight as it should be, then we'll continue to have problems.

      A quality commanding keeper would be a big plus tho imho.
      grooveshark
      • Forum Barry Venison
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #71: Oct 03, 2017 10:07:06 pm
      1. They sold Wimmer, their only other CB. Did you expect them to go into the season with only Alderweireld, Vertonghen and Dier while most of the time playing a system with three CB's? And can you tell me how Sanchez has looked so far? To me he has looked pretty shakey and is lucky to be playing in the middle of the three CB's where teams can't isolate him like we do to all the CB's who play in a back three. (Bayern, Hoffenheim, Arsenal, City). We always identify the weak link in the back three, put Salah and Mane on them and made them look sh*t. Sanchez would be that weak link. Alderweireld and Vertonghen are top CB's though and I'd have them here in a heartbeat.
      a) Wimmer started 4 games in the league, one as a sub and they have replaced him with someone that has now started 5 league games. The former was never a key player, but has been replaced by Sanchez and they also brought in a young Argentine defender called Juan Foyth. Sanchez may not be playing that well at the moment, but that is expected seeing that he is coming from a lesser league to one that is more physical and way faster.

      b) There is this talk of how we expose a back three with the vaunted attack. Hardly the case. There was a single good chance for Salah against City in an entire half of football, Stones who was their weakest CB was never exposed the entire time the team had 11. Also said this elsewhere (cannot remember if it was in this topic), that Klopp has set the team up to counter, so you rarely get a lot of support. Arsenal were a shambles when they came to Anfield, and that is the lone high point of this season that has seen three wins in ten games.

      Quote
      2. Courtois, Cech and Lloris indeed aren't good with the ball at their feet. Courtois showed us again as such against City where they tried to play out from the back a few times and it went completely wrong, resulting in him hoofing everything up the pitch and constantly losing possession because they didn't have a focal point on the pitch. He's no good as a sweeper keeper either, look at some of the penalties Chelsea have conceded over the years because he's too late, he actually has gotten a red card or two too because of that. Also the complete opposite goalkeeper of what we need, Chelsea sit deep a lot of the time, can't compare it to how we play.

      Cech is an other good example, he is nowhere near the goalkeeper he once was and has faced plenty of criticism from analysts and fans because he has become so slow and his kicking is about as bad as Mignolet's.

      Lloris is another perfect example you give there and he gets away with so much it's ridiculous. He is one of the worst in the PL with the ball at his feet. Plenty of times they nearly conceded because he fu**ed up trying to play it out from the back or when he's too late to intercept the ball. Just last week against Nicosia again, almost conceded because he fu**ed up yet again and the ball just went past the wrong side of the goalpost for Nicosia. Yet Lloris gets nowhere near the stick some of the other goalkeepers get.

      Of course it hasn't stopped their teams playing the football they want. But where did Arsenal end last season? Has Spurs won anything yet with Lloris as their goalkeeper and their magnificent defence?
      You are essentially making my point for me. All those goalkeepers are way better than anything this team has had since Pepe Reina was sold, but people will look down at how good they are at keeping the ball out of the net because they are not sweeper keepers.

      Ask anyone who does not think that these goalkeepers are what this team needs what options they would love to see plying their trade at Melwood/Anfield. The best option for people like you is to go on with what is around at the team at this moment, achieve the same results, then shoot down every possible player that may improve the team because they may lack something. Not a lot of defenders in this league are as good in possession as Matip, yet there are a lot of defenders that are better than him when it comes to defending. There are not as many midfielders who cover as much distance as someone as Aaron Ramsey, but there are a lot of players who know what positional discipline is, and what it entails to play as a central midfielder.
      Not a lot of forwards press as much as Firmino does, yet there are so many who given the minutes he gets will perform better than he does because their worth is measured in goals. Not a lot of CB's slower than Mertesacker, but fewer read the game better than him, and there are a lot who are faster who would struggle playing in a high line.

      Having a GK who is quick off the line is a plus, having one who is comfortable with the ball is even better. However, the one thing you want from your goalkeeper is someone who can keep goals out, someone who can command his area and deal with crosses, someone who at the end of the season does not have you saying he cost you goals running into double digits. I also never understand people who demand that a GK must be a sweeper keeper; the ball goes to the CB's/FB's to Henderson/Wijnaldum and then back to the CB's/FB's/GK.

      I would always want a defender that is great on the ball, but rather than get one who is great on the ball, give me one who is good on it, can read the game, has minimal mistakes and shelters the GK well. Midfielders who are good on the ball, who can make a forward pass without instead of making the simple passes because they fear that they could lose the ball, tactically astute, and forwards who can score.

      Anything outside these is always a bonus.


      Quote
      3. You're just making my points for me. How did Stones look in his first season at City? He was atrocious, even coming from a PL team, needed a year to adapt and he's still a weak link in that City defence. Mustafi isn't that good a CB either, most of the Arsenal fans I know want him gone and Wenger even benched him. The only player in that list that adapted really well is Bailly and he has looked very good I have to admit. I don't agree that Matip has regressed, if anything, he has stagnated in his development due to the players he's playing with. He has got some stick and rightly so, though.
      Your entire debate was that money should not be risked on a player coming from another league because it might take them time to adapt......or in some cases they may never adapt. That is crazy i.e. keep it as is instead of risking it because it might not work?

      These defenders and goalkeepers that you are keen to put down are having better seasons than anything we have. Stones is having a cracking year, Mustafi has got better and better with each passing game. So does it matter to me that someone might have been sold or is percieved as a weak link? No! What matters is how they are performing. Klopp said that there were not 5 defenders who could improve on what Liverpool has, he has said silly things to protect players that have been disappointing ever since he took over. Does that make them better because he says so?

      Quote
      Would you mind explaining me how a 4th choice CB for Schalke ends up playing about 100 league games and a dozen CL games in his last three seasons? :lmao:

      Matip was always first choice and the only reason he missed games was due to a broken foot and at the end because we had signed him in January on a free after he refused to extend his contract. He was loved by all the Schalke fans. So that's a lie.
      Matija Nastasic - Achilles Tendon Rapture that ruled him out of 2015/16 season.
      Benedikt Howedes essentially missed most of the 2015/16 season due to an ankle fracture at the start of the season and a muscle fibre injury at the latter part of the season. These two were Schalke's best defenders especially after the arrival of Nastasic the previous January window. With those injuries, Neustadter who mainly played DM and at times at CB started playing CB a lot more often with Matip.

      Quote
      Klavan was indeed a cheap option, but have you actually looked into why Klopp decided to sign him? Klopp has said he had watched and followed him for years in the Bundesliga. Or is it just easy enough putting the 'failure' lable on him after now seeing he has difficulties adapting to the pace of the PL? He was brought in as a 3rd CB behind Matip and Lovren and to cover the period after which Klopp would be able to bring in the CB's he wants. He thought he could do a decent job, turns out that if he has to play multiple games, he can't.
      He took a gamble on a player who was nothing special in the Bundesliga, got him for pennies and hoped that it would all work out. Like Matip, who was also nothing special in the Bundesliga, he has struggled.

      As you spend time looking at how limited some of the players in other teams are, here are some numbers, 2, 2, 5, 6, 8 (that is the number of goals conceded by City, United, Spurs, Chelsea and Arsenal this season). 12 is the number conceded by Liverpool.
      City(7/10),  United (7/10), Tottenham (6/10), Chelsea (4/10), Arsenal (5/10) essentially have more clean sheets than Liverpool (2/10), but there is something wrong with their defenders and/or goalkeepers despite the fact that they have traditionally conceded less and actually see it as important to invest in starters in defense.


      Quote
      Moreno is a starter because right now he deserves to be a starter. He has improved significantly. Still plenty of room for improvement though. The only reason Robertson isn't getting too many starts is because he's getting used to the tactics and the system as a whole. How many players Klopp has brought in have gone in straight away without having a pre-season?
      Each and every one of those top teams employs attacking fullbacks/wingbacks. All of them.

      Each and every one of those teams is currently doing a better job pressing opposition teams, and not only that, getting results. You debate as if we are in a vacuum, we have won one in seven, and three wins out of 10 this season and 17 goals conceded in those 10. It makes for grim reading.

      Do I think all is lost? No, all it needs is for the team to string together a number of wins and keep pace with the top teams at home and in Europe, hope that opponents start dropping points as they begin to face one another.
      bigmick
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #72: Oct 03, 2017 11:07:42 pm
      Jeez now that's a post and a half grooveshark.
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #73: Oct 04, 2017 12:06:51 am
      a) Wimmer started 4 games in the league, one as a sub and they have replaced him with someone that has now started 5 league games. The former was never a key player, but has been replaced by Sanchez and they also brought in a young Argentine defender called Juan Foyth. Sanchez may not be playing that well at the moment, but that is expected seeing that he is coming from a lesser league to one that is more physical and way faster.

      b) There is this talk of how we expose a back three with the vaunted attack. Hardly the case. There was a single good chance for Salah against City in an entire half of football, Stones who was their weakest CB was never exposed the entire time the team had 11. Also said this elsewhere (cannot remember if it was in this topic), that Klopp has set the team up to counter, so you rarely get a lot of support. Arsenal were a shambles when they came to Anfield, and that is the lone high point of this season that has seen three wins in ten games.
      You are essentially making my point for me. All those goalkeepers are way better than anything this team has had since Pepe Reina was sold, but people will look down at how good they are at keeping the ball out of the net because they are not sweeper keepers.

      Ask anyone who does not think that these goalkeepers are what this team needs what options they would love to see plying their trade at Melwood/Anfield. The best option for people like you is to go on with what is around at the team at this moment, achieve the same results, then shoot down every possible player that may improve the team because they may lack something. Not a lot of defenders in this league are as good in possession as Matip, yet there are a lot of defenders that are better than him when it comes to defending. There are not as many midfielders who cover as much distance as someone as Aaron Ramsey, but there are a lot of players who know what positional discipline is, and what it entails to play as a central midfielder.
      Not a lot of forwards press as much as Firmino does, yet there are so many who given the minutes he gets will perform better than he does because their worth is measured in goals. Not a lot of CB's slower than Mertesacker, but fewer read the game better than him, and there are a lot who are faster who would struggle playing in a high line.

      Having a GK who is quick off the line is a plus, having one who is comfortable with the ball is even better. However, the one thing you want from your goalkeeper is someone who can keep goals out, someone who can command his area and deal with crosses, someone who at the end of the season does not have you saying he cost you goals running into double digits. I also never understand people who demand that a GK must be a sweeper keeper; the ball goes to the CB's/FB's to Henderson/Wijnaldum and then back to the CB's/FB's/GK.

      I would always want a defender that is great on the ball, but rather than get one who is great on the ball, give me one who is good on it, can read the game, has minimal mistakes and shelters the GK well. Midfielders who are good on the ball, who can make a forward pass without instead of making the simple passes because they fear that they could lose the ball, tactically astute, and forwards who can score.

      Anything outside these is always a bonus.

      Your entire debate was that money should not be risked on a player coming from another league because it might take them time to adapt......or in some cases they may never adapt. That is crazy i.e. keep it as is instead of risking it because it might not work?

      These defenders and goalkeepers that you are keen to put down are having better seasons than anything we have. Stones is having a cracking year, Mustafi has got better and better with each passing game. So does it matter to me that someone might have been sold or is percieved as a weak link? No! What matters is how they are performing. Klopp said that there were not 5 defenders who could improve on what Liverpool has, he has said silly things to protect players that have been disappointing ever since he took over. Does that make them better because he says so?
      Matija Nastasic - Achilles Tendon Rapture that ruled him out of 2015/16 season.
      Benedikt Howedes essentially missed most of the 2015/16 season due to an ankle fracture at the start of the season and a muscle fibre injury at the latter part of the season. These two were Schalke's best defenders especially after the arrival of Nastasic the previous January window. With those injuries, Neustadter who mainly played DM and at times at CB started playing CB a lot more often with Matip.
      He took a gamble on a player who was nothing special in the Bundesliga, got him for pennies and hoped that it would all work out. Like Matip, who was also nothing special in the Bundesliga, he has struggled.

      As you spend time looking at how limited some of the players in other teams are, here are some numbers, 2, 2, 5, 6, 8 (that is the number of goals conceded by City, United, Spurs, Chelsea and Arsenal this season). 12 is the number conceded by Liverpool.
      City(7/10),  United (7/10), Tottenham (6/10), Chelsea (4/10), Arsenal (5/10) essentially have more clean sheets than Liverpool (2/10), but there is something wrong with their defenders and/or goalkeepers despite the fact that they have traditionally conceded less and actually see it as important to invest in starters in defense.

      Each and every one of those top teams employs attacking fullbacks/wingbacks. All of them.

      Each and every one of those teams is currently doing a better job pressing opposition teams, and not only that, getting results. You debate as if we are in a vacuum, we have won one in seven, and three wins out of 10 this season and 17 goals conceded in those 10. It makes for grim reading.

      Do I think all is lost? No, all it needs is for the team to string together a number of wins and keep pace with the top teams at home and in Europe, hope that opponents start dropping points as they begin to face one another.


      We have actually won 5 out of 12 games this season
      HScRed1
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #74: Oct 04, 2017 02:02:15 am
      Good luck getting teams like Real Madrid, Bayern, PSG, City, Juventus and even Tottenham (look at the money they get for their top players each time) for example, to sell to us, unless they want to get rid off the player. That's the European top teams I was talking about. Then we had Napoli for example who were asking near £70 million for Koulibaly two seasons ago. That's still a good amount of money more than we were willing to offer for Van Dijk.

      Being the 9th richest team in the world means f**k all if you don't act like the 9th richest team in the world, does it?

      Yes, he took a risk and it back fired. Had he been able to see into the future he might have decided otherwise. He trusted the defenders who had gotten him into top 4 last season, to be able to do so again. Blame the man for trusting his players.

      Of course he took a risk and too be fair it was very poor judgment because he could have asked every single poster on this forum and they would have quantified the likely outcomes of sticking with the current defense.

      It's done now so every idiot on twitter and talkshite will bring up the issue as a expert.

      You may have missed my point that FSG have not deviated from they're principles of spending.
      The £200M war chest was just BS to placate the fans.
      Hence why Klopp will get the flack for not spending.



      « Last Edit: Oct 04, 2017 02:06:53 am by HScRed1 »
      grooveshark
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #75: Oct 04, 2017 03:30:31 am
      We have actually won 5 out of 12 games this season
      I left the qualifiers out

      1) To keep everything equal with other teams when it came to comparison.

      2) With the clear notice that it is phase that starts before the real competition, and UEFA also treats it as just that. That is the reason they do not even factor in goals scored in qualifiers into the golden boot calculation. So, 3 games out of 10.
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #76: Oct 04, 2017 07:53:20 am
      I left the qualifiers out

      1) To keep everything equal with other teams when it came to comparison.

      2) With the clear notice that it is phase that starts before the real competition, and UEFA also treats it as just that. That is the reason they do not even factor in goals scored in qualifiers into the golden boot calculation. So, 3 games out of 10.

      In other words massaging the data to make your point, i can understand for point 1 but point 2 frankly is uefa speak. 5 from 12
      Muzzman1969
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #77: Oct 04, 2017 08:21:59 am
      Only my opinion, but I do feel that in the games we have drawn this season (with the exception of Watford, although a case can be made there also) we have been let down more by the attack than the defense.  That is not to say that I am happy with the defense, just that the results we have had are more as a result of the whole team than one aspect of it.
      grooveshark
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #78: Oct 04, 2017 10:56:59 am
      In other words massaging the data to make your point, i can understand for point 1 but point 2 frankly is uefa speak. 5 from 12
      It is what it is, some might want to change it to score a non existent point....same people probably think that qualifiers that are played before the season starts should be included in season numbers.

      Sheer madness. We have played 2 Champions League games, no point one wants to make could ever change that.
      Dadorious
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #79: Oct 04, 2017 12:15:07 pm
      Not really. The biggest problem with Arsenal is that they were solid at the end of last season when they were primarily a counter attacking outfit with that formation. At the start of this season, and all of pre season, they Wenger was busy playing people off their natural position, and trying to play far more possession based football similar to what they played with 4-2-3-1. Ramsey also did not have the discipline and was almost playing like a striker. So when Xhaka lost the ball, they were always looking at a clear cut chance being generated on the other side, and that was evidenced by the goals that they conceded early on in the season.

      So you had 8 goals conceded in the first three games, no clean sheets, one win, and two losses. They have followed that up with 6 wins in 7 games, the one draw being against Chelsea. They have now conceded 3 in seven games while keeping 5 clean sheets in 7 and 5 out of 10 for the season. In this early season form, they have already gone to Stamford Bridge, Anfield, and Britannia......places that they normally drop points.

      City have already beaten Chelsea (away) and Liverpool (at home), games that they did not win last season, and for the season, they have conceded only three goals; two in the league and one in the league cup.

      The biggest problem that is hard to understand is that these two teams are possibly the best possession teams in the league in terms of maintaining possession and finding openings in the other team's final third. These two teams more than anyone else in the league generally tend to have four or even 5 people in the opponent box looking to score. With the way Klopp has set up the team,it is get the ball to the forwards quick (something every big team tries when it is right) where you have quick transitions but far less in terms of support inside the box, yet still be so open in phases where a single pass can essentially nullify an entire defense. It is also surprising as to the amount of pressure the team can be under once another team gets a few passes in midfield to beat the press and just how little recovery there is from all of it. Other teams are playing far more open, yet seem to be more stable.........that is on the manager.



      I wouldn't say they were solid at the back of last season they did grind out a good run albeit not being solid in defense. They won games but it wasn't on the back of their defense.

      We proved a few weeks ago to Arsenal if you don't have the right personnel you shouldn't set up with 3 at the back as we did to Hoffenheim a week before that.

      Just to clarify nothing wrong with the 3 cb and 2 wb but you need to have the right player in all 5 positions.
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #80: Oct 04, 2017 12:39:45 pm
      It is what it is, some might want to change it to score a non existent point....same people probably think that qualifiers that are played before the season starts should be included in season numbers.

      Sheer madness. We have played 2 Champions League games, no point one wants to make could ever change that.

       We have played 12 games this season, not trying to score points, as rafa would say, it's a fact, the qualjifiers were played after the league season started, just cos uefa don't count them matters only to them and anoraks
      grooveshark
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #81: Oct 04, 2017 12:53:44 pm
      I wouldn't say they were solid at the back of last season they did grind out a good run albeit not being solid in defense. They won games but it wasn't on the back of their defense.

      We proved a few weeks ago to Arsenal if you don't have the right personnel you shouldn't set up with 3 at the back as we did to Hoffenheim a week before that.

      Just to clarify nothing wrong with the 3 cb and 2 wb but you need to have the right player in all 5 positions.
      Context.

      Of the 8 goals Arsenal conceded, majority came from them losing the ball and not being able to get back against transition. So what has changed? They started playing people in their most comfortable positions, Ramsey started playing more and more like a central midfielder as opposed to a striker and that has given them a more stable base that they have been able to build on. It is essentially what they did last season when they started racking up wins, and eventually won the FA Cup.

      This is where I generally tend to disagree with people that rubbish what other teams are doing. By the way, a lot of these managers are doing a lot of small things that have a major effect on they manage games. Look at a change like Walker as a CB on the right of a back three when City faced Chelsea which was supposed to neutralize Hazard.....the devil is in the detail.
      grooveshark
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #82: Oct 04, 2017 02:09:20 pm
      Sorry to just pick this snippet out but Otamendi was their weakest CB and will continue to be, got a yellow in the first 5 minutes (I think, could have been later) also another of their defenders got a yellow, we had them on the rack in my opinion.
      If you were to look at the debate, you may notice that my point all along was that City this season came up with a formation that got the better of John Stones who had been told is City's weak link. My response was that not once was he ever exposed in that game, and it was a game where the lone good chance fell to Salah at an angle not too favorable.

      We have played 12 games this season, not trying to score points, as rafa would say, it's a fact, the qualjifiers were played after the league season started, just cos uefa don't count them matters only to them and anoraks
      Semantics. Those games only matter is as much as getting to the Champions League or dropping to the Europa League was concerned. They are not accounted for as competitive games in the respective competitions. Good luck arguing against that.
      « Last Edit: Oct 04, 2017 02:30:06 pm by grooveshark »
      MIRO
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #83: Oct 04, 2017 11:34:09 pm
      When was the last time we upgraded Reina? how about Masch? And each time Lucas had a run in DM, we always looked stable, didn't we?

      Great quote that PM.   Good question .

      When did we upgrade Pepe ?  When did we upgrade the irreplaceble Masch ?

      Stevie    Carra     Sami   Luis    Torres   the list goes on.

      All we've done especially with the defence and midfield is go backwards.

      We've only half a team still and one of those is off to Barca next year .

      Beerbelly
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #84: Oct 05, 2017 05:11:43 am
      There might not be hundreds of defenders out there who can improve us but equally ridiculous is the suggestion there is only one.

      I can't believe people are that naive to believe it.

      I don't know, maybe it's cool or something.

      All I know is, if you don't have the personnel to play a certain system you can tweak that system to suit the personnel.

      And all this talk is of us being caught on the counter attack - over committing ourselves in attack.

      We still can't defend set-pieces and 2nd, 3rd balls.

      More questions than answers.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #85: Oct 05, 2017 08:00:50 am
      I can't believe people are that naive to believe it.

      I don't know, maybe it's cool or something.

      An awful lot of people need to believe it 'cause that's the easiest way to square the circle on previously stated opinions.

      Much easier to pretend there is a noble principle at work than to just admit 'we' fu**ed up you see. 😕
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #86: Oct 22, 2017 11:53:36 pm
      In the League.

      At home - four games, one conceded, three clean sheets. (0.25 conceded goals per game)
      Away - five games, fifteen conceded, no clean sheets. (3 goals conceded per game)

      Are we just too open away from home? Are teams that much more negative when they visit Anfield? Has it just been good luck that we've only conceded once at Anfield?
      HScRed1
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #87: Oct 23, 2017 12:15:56 am
      4 out of the 5 back line that got Rogers the sack are still playing for Klopp.

      Jürgen why are you tightening the noose around your neck?
      Danzel
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #88: Oct 23, 2017 12:54:37 am
      In the League.

      At home - four games, one conceded, three clean sheets. (0.25 conceded goals per game)
      Away - five games, fifteen conceded, no clean sheets. (3 goals conceded per game)

      Are we just too open away from home? Are teams that much more negative when they visit Anfield? Has it just been good luck that we've only conceded once at Anfield?

      Teams really are a lot more negative when they visit Anfield.

      Home games

      So far we have played Burnley, Palace, the mancs and Arsenal. The first three parked the bus and we're as defensive as you can possibly be. None of them really created many chances. From the top of my head, Palace had one (Benteke miss), Burnley other than the goal two from setpieces at the end of the game (Mee twice?), the mancs one good opportunity with Lukaku. Other than that, we completely dominated the games and gave nothing away at all.

      The one team that came out and played was Arsenal and they got slapped 4-0.

      So I don't think it's down to good luck we've only conceded once, we've given almost nothing away in terms of chances to sides that have visited Anfield so far. Don't think Karius had to make a single save in that Arsenal game either?

      Away games

      Watford: three goals. They've been really good this season, credit to Silva, he really got that team playing some good football. Other than their City result, they beat Arsenal and could have easily put 4 past Chelsea this weekend. They score pretty consistently and all goals we conceded we're poor give-aways. They played pretty open / good football.

      City: five goals. Four of them after we went down to 10. They are beating sides playing with 11 by that number of goals left, right and centre. Can't really look into that result too much with regards to being too open or our way of playing in away games.

      Spurs: four goals. All of them gifts and all of them massive mistakes by midfielders / defenders / goalkeeper. They played good, direct football, not defensive.

      Leicester: two goals. The Okazaki one and Vardy one. They didn't park it, played quite open, also very direct football.

      Newcastle: one goal. Joselu. Arguably the only team that played defensive, we didn't give much away, other than at the end of the game again I think.

      Can't really put my finger on where it's going so wrong compared to when we play at home. At home we usually are even higher up the pitch compared to when we play away games, so we're not (or at least not by Klopp's instruction) more open than we are at home. If you'd make a compilation of all the goals we conceded in away games (bar the City game), it would make for some grim viewing. You can point out massive mistakes by defenders / midfielders for every single goal, mistakes they don't seem to be making when playing at home (the Burnley one aside, where Klavan bumped into Matip).

      So if you look at it like that: have a go at our midfield / defense and you have a good chance of scoring / winning games. Sit deep and prevent us from scoring, but create nothing yourself and draw / lose.

      Tried looking at it from an other angle.

      Our away games have come after:

      3 after midweek games
      1 after the international break
      1 first game of the season

      So four games have come after the majority of our players have played in midweek / have come back from international duty. Is it down to squad rotation and are we worse as a team? Are our players struggling with the amount of games (not too many of our players are used to a lot of midweek football)? Not looking for excuses for poor performances here! Just trying to figure out why there's such a big difference in our home and away games.
      « Last Edit: Oct 23, 2017 01:06:57 am by Danzel »
      trebor12
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #89: Oct 23, 2017 01:26:53 pm
      I'd try a 3 4 3 now (well everyone else is doing it) and have Gomez Matip and Klaven in the back 3 plus we either have to give Karius a go or Ward, we need to try something different because our season could be over pretty soon.

                                 Karius
               Gomez     Matip     Klaven
      Ox              Hendo   Grujic            Milner
                    Salah            Coutinho
                              Solanke
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #90: Oct 23, 2017 02:43:14 pm
      I was watching the NBC stream yesterday and after the first goal Lee Dixon was quick to point out the reluctance for any of the players to take the blame. He said something along the lines of 'Look at them all staring at each other, trying to blame one another. No one taking responsibility'. They just look f**king comical even after the goal has been scored with those empty, brainless stares at each other and mild shake of the heads knowing full well the tv cameras are on them.
      Diego LFC
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      • Sempre Liverpool
      Re: The defence, a discussion
      Reply #91: Oct 23, 2017 02:58:16 pm
      How pathetic is it that Jürgen Klopp signed a CB in Ragnar Klavan but when he wants to change a central defender, he prefers to send Emre Can to right back rather than actually use the player he signed? Joke of a signing, simply indefensible.

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