We need to talk about Henderson...

He's been told to play right in front of Matip and Lovren, a role that a certain Lucas Leiva played in for many years and no one batted and eyelid.
If we sign a decent central defender in January then he'll probably play further forward but right now both Stan and Ollie need protecting and Henderson drew the short straw.
I know he scored the winner against Leicester but I can't remember the last time he scored.

Stats mean nothing. I watched Hendo and he really sucks.

Reading some of the previous posts are we saying that Hendo is the DM in our setup?

If so then playing devils advocate I fail to see anyone being able to defend most of his performances as pretty much everyone is in agreement that our defence is shaky and the midfield offer them no protection.

He seems to play his best football when Lallana is in the lineup.

He seems to play his best football when Lallana is in the lineup.

Which to me, the more I see of our side without Lallana in, is much more a compliment to Adam than it is to Jordan.

Reading some of the previous posts are we saying that Hendo is the DM in our setup?

If so then playing devils advocate I fail to see anyone being able to defend most of his performances as pretty much everyone is in agreement that our defence is shaky and the midfield offer them no protection.

Well, kind of.

There was an excellent article posted a while back which showed that we actually allow teams the second least shots on goal in the league this year... The issue is we have a fool in goal who lets in one in every two of them. So it's not like the defence isn't getting protection, it's that it's incapable of defending once the line is broken, so I wouldn't place the blame on the midfield for that.

Also, Hendo has recovered the ball for us as much as Kante has for Chelsea this year, and played a game less. That's pretty fantastic if you ask me.

He's been told to play right in front of Matip and Lovren, a role that a certain Lucas Leiva played in for many years and no one batted and eyelid.
If we sign a decent central defender in January then he'll probably play further forward but right now both Stan and Ollie need protecting and Henderson drew the short straw.
I know he scored the winner against Leicester but I can't remember the last time he scored.

I'm not sure no one batted an eyelid over Lucas, his player thread testifies to that.

I'm not sure no one batted an eyelid over Lucas, his player thread testifies to that.

What I meant was no one voiced their frustration that he hardly moved over the half way line and just sat there sweeping up infront of the central defenders. I'll never deny his talent.. despite his regular nose bleeds when he did cross the halfway line.
Henderson's role this season has moved back 10 yards into a similar Lucas style position.
Whether we agree or disagree that this is a good thing is what's up for discussion isn't it?

I'm not sure no one batted an eyelid over Lucas, his player thread testifies to that.

Not sure no one is incorrect, double negative, it should be not sure anyone.

Man...

I really feel like I'm talking to a brick wall sometimes.

His role is clearly to give it to our 'creative players' who in turn make the chances. However he also does create attacking moves from time to time. In fact here is where he ranks:

1. Coutinho - 3.89 chances created per game
2. Firmino - 2.42 chances created per game
3. Henderson - 1.57 chances created per game
4. Salah - 1.53 chances created per game
5. Moreno - 1.50 chances created per game
6. Can - 1.22 chances created per game
7. Mane - 0.99 chances created per game
6. Gini - 0.62 chances created per game

Clearly the other players around him are not pulling their weight. The fact that Henderson (in my opinion) isn't even in the team to create from deep and he is still making more chances than our other 2 midfield players actually makes me wonder what the f**k are Can and Gini even doing. They tackle less, pass less, run less, retrieve the ball less and create less than Jordan. In the league this year, Henderson is the midfielder in our team that wins the ball back the most, has scored the most and has created the most and yet gets the most stick.

So look, say all you want, trust 'what you see' all you want... However like I said earlier, people have what they see and I have what I see... but all I'm asking for is evidence. If I can find evidence to justify my views, I'm sure other people can too.

I agree with this. A midfield of Henderson, Can, Gini doesn't fill me with confidence if I'm honest but of the 3 the only one whose role I can really tell is Hendersons. Screening the defence and providing the others license to get forward and build attacks.

I think the midfield is incredibly weak and needs looking at urgently and whilst we could upgrade on every player in the middle, Henderson wouldn't be where I'd start.

His role is clearly to give it to our 'creative players' who in turn make the chances.

Henderson has a useless role then. All midfielders should be creative and all the back four need to passing to all midfielders.

Well, kind of.

There was an excellent article posted a while back which showed that we actually allow teams the second least shots on goal in the league this year... The issue is we have a fool in goal who lets in one in every two of them. So it's not like the defence isn't getting protection, it's that it's incapable of defending once the line is broken, so I wouldn't place the blame on the midfield for that.

Also, Hendo has recovered the ball for us as much as Kante has for Chelsea this year, and played a game less. That's pretty fantastic if you ask me.

Kante hasn't exactly been in great form this season.

I think Henderson isn't good enough for our starting 11 and what makes it worse is i don't even know what his best position is. He clearly isn't a DM, barely makes a recovering tackle, defensive positioning isn't great. He isn't a deep lying play maker either as he doesn't pass the ball forward enough, he encourages side to side passing.

I just don't get what he brings to the team.

I just don't get what he brings to the team.

He brings a lot to the team and I will list them alphabetically.

Anger
Boredom
Disappointment
Despair
Frustration
Irritation
Mediocrity

Kante hasn't exactly been in great form this season.

I think Henderson isn't good enough for our starting 11 and what makes it worse is i don't even know what his best position is. He clearly isn't a DM, barely makes a recovering tackle, defensive positioning isn't great. He isn't a deep lying play maker either as he doesn't pass the ball forward enough, he encourages side to side passing.

I just don't get what he brings to the team.

I don't get what you mean about barley makes a recovering tackle when he makes as many tackles as every other DM in the league.

Again, I sound like a broken record but he doesn't just pass the ball sideways, people harp on and on and on about this but it's just something people have talked about so much that they start to believe it. Next time you watch a game just watch how often if happens compared to Henderson passing into the final third or passing long balls forward. I know what I'm seeing and I have the figure to back it up. You say you know what you're seeing, so back it up with something other than 'he's sh*te because I say so'.

And if you really want him to go you can always change your name to vhenderson 

I don't get what you mean about barley makes a recovering tackle when he makes as many tackles as every other DM in the league.

Again, I sound like a broken record but he doesn't just pass the ball sideways, people harp on and on and on about this but it's just something people have talked about so much that they start to believe it. Next time you watch a game just watch how often if happens compared to Henderson passing into the final third or passing long balls forward. I know what I'm seeing and I have the figure to back it up. You say you know what you're seeing, so back it up with something other than 'he's sh*te because I say so'.

And if you really want him to go you can always change your name to vhenderson 

I remember the stats being posted by you, and they were very impressive.

I also remember that on the very same page, people ignored them.

Every season has a scapegoat it seems, and Henderson is the current one.

The reality is that he's much, much better than some give him credit for.

I don't get what you mean about barley makes a recovering tackle when he makes as many tackles as every other DM in the league.

Again, I sound like a broken record but he doesn't just pass the ball sideways, people harp on and on and on about this but it's just something people have talked about so much that they start to believe it. Next time you watch a game just watch how often if happens compared to Henderson passing into the final third or passing long balls forward. I know what I'm seeing and I have the figure to back it up. You say you know what you're seeing, so back it up with something other than 'he's sh*te because I say so'.

And if you really want him to go you can always change your name to vhenderson 

I mean like a recovering challenge, going to ground and recovering the ball. I don't know what the stats say, i only go off what i see.

I am sorry Mags, but against United he must of passed the ball about 10 times side to side before he looked for the forward pass. People like Firmino, Salah are always offering themselves up short for the pass, but he tends to opt to pass to Lovren or Matip.

I think i might have too haha.

I mean like a recovering challenge, going to ground and recovering the ball. I don't know what the stats say, i only go off what i see.

I am sorry Mags, but against United he must of passed the ball about 10 times side to side before he looked for the forward pass. People like Firmino, Salah are always offering themselves up short for the pass, but he tends to opt to pass to Lovren or Matip.

I think i might have too haha.

Surely staying on his feet, winning the ball, then turning and passing it out is the better option than going to ground?

I've always thought going to ground was the last option.
Yeah, it looks spectacular, but it's a failure of positioning and reading the game, isn't it?

Surely staying on his feet, winning the ball, then turning and passing it out is the better option than going to ground?

I've always thought going to ground was the last option.
Yeah, it looks spectacular, but it's a failure of positioning and reading the game, isn't it?

Yeah can't argue with you there. But my point was in that position he is helpless, i don't see him as an out an out defensive midfielder. 

Yeah can't argue with you there. But my point was in that position he is helpless, i don't see him as an out an out defensive midfielder.

Neither do I mate, and I don't think Klopp does either.

I mentioned before that in Klopp's teams, the starting position doesn't necessarily reflect a players main responsibilities.

I often see Can or Gini slotting in, or even Can and Henderson dropping back as Matip goes forwards.
I think that Klopp wants his players to rotate frequently, and intelligently, but also to remember their defensive responsibilities.

I think the midfield is incredibly weak and needs looking at urgently

Do you not think, given a fully fit team, that Coutinho and Lallana are both in there though?  Those two, Mane, Salah and one other looks that little bit stronger for me.  Not saying it's the Premier League's best front 5 but it surely has to be up there?

I mean like a recovering challenge, going to ground and recovering the ball. I don't know what the stats say, i only go off what i see.

I am sorry Mags, but against United he must of passed the ball about 10 times side to side before he looked for the forward pass. People like Firmino, Salah are always offering themselves up short for the pass, but he tends to opt to pass to Lovren or Matip.

I think i might have too haha.

That's not the way we play though, pressing usually means staying on your feet, only Moreno tends to go to ground (Can sometimes too) but that's usually due to them being out of position.

He did pass the ball from side to side against United, however that doesn't mean that anyone else was free. Mourinho made it very hard to cut through, I do wish Henderson was a little more decisive sometimes and went for a riskier pass more often... However once again, he did make 4 key passes for us which sparked an attack which no one seems to comment on. That's more than everyone else in the team bar Firmino. Every time Salah looked promising, look who's found him in space. Gini started 1 attacking move with a pass and Emre started 0.

I'm not saying he doesn't pass the ball sideways ever, I'm just saying it's not all he does and for some reason we're just literally ignoring the evidence. Look below:



What we see is a mixture of sideways passes, forward passes, and rarely backwards passes. In yellow are key passes (the ones I was talking about earlier.)

I'm not ignoring the sideways passes, so I urge everyone to stop pretending that's all they see and actually look, especially at when he pushes forward after the half way line. Like I said, when deep he gives the simple ball to our 'creative players' but when pushed forward he does make chances and he does start attacks. Salah had a very good game as did Gomez, can everyone see how many times Henderson gave the ball over to that wing? No coincidence that.

If I were cognitively challenged, then that would be discrimination would it not?
Luckily I am not, so it is a lesser offense of trying to provoke me.
How do you know my cognitive ability? Have you measured it in a laboratory?
Have you got access to my educational records that would state BCs(Hons)?
No, you don't.. I won't return insults, just let you know what I think about your insults.

Wouldn't be discrimination, just means I don't want to waste my time on a troll.

Again, come along with evidence of your claims and we can talk.

Wouldn't be discrimination, just means I don't want to waste my time on a troll.

Again, come along with evidence of your claims and we can talk.

I am not the troll here, I watched Henderson play.
My evidence is the amount of fanbase that agree with me, not numbers you pull of Squawka that don't mean much, as Luke pointed out.
Enjoy being the minority on this, calling people troll and mentally challenged because they don't agree with you.
Just consider, what reputation are you giving yourself with your attitude?