We need to talk about Henderson...

To start off with it, I've often said before that Henderson playing as our most 'DM' isn't really an issue and that some of the criticism directed towards him is, in my opinion, largely undeserved. As you say, he does what Klopp asks of him and he does it fairly well, not excellent though. You can't deny he does have a problem with setting the tempo and that, even though his forward passing has improved, it still is an issue.

What you can't do, is use a bunch of statistics, compare them to a few midfield players and then say you have evidence to back up your opinion. Other than Fernandinho, none of them even play in a midfield three or play a role even close to Henderson's. The formations they play in, the tactics and their positioning in general is completely different compared to how Henderson is asked to play. The only one who comes somewhat close in terms of his role, is Fernandinho (and even his role is different) and as you can tell, their statistics are indeed fairly similar.

Statistics like "completed most passes into the final 3rd of the pitch" and "average pass lenght" are flawed. Of course Henderson completes a lot of passes into the final 3rd. Given how far up the pitch we play and how high his position usually is, most diagonal passes to our full backs, who very often will find themselves in the final 3rd, will count as "a forward pass into the final 3rd". That statistic is flawed, certainly for his position in our system. His passing has indeed become more adventurous and he will indeed try to play a vertical pass more often, but his decision making of when to play the vertical pass, isn't good. (Look at his pass to Sturridge against Newcastle which leads to their goal, it's not the main cause, but it starts it all.) In the United game I recall a few occasions where Coutinho found some space centrally, showed for the ball, but Henderson refused to play it forward because he's not comfortable playing that type of ball.

Here's a comparison to a player who also plays a high intensity game and plays as the most 'DM' of his team. They also play a false 9 very often (Mertens). The system is different, but his role is similar.



Look at his forward passes, that's what we need more of from Henderson. If you'd add in pass completion % for both, Henderson is at 78%, Jorginho is at 92%, even when playing these forward passes. The lenght of his passes doesn't matter, forward passes can be relatively short, as long as it's a pass that goes through an opposition line, it's fine. With Coutinho and Wijnaldum we have two midfielders who are perfectly capable of receiving these forward passes in tight spaces, but we end up not using them because Henderson doesn't play it vertically into these spaces often enough. Most of his forward passes are either to the wide fullbacks or long diagonals for Mane and Salah to run on.

With all that said... Does Henderson do his job? He does. Can we improve on him? We can. Should we improve on him? We should. With Can set to leave next season, that only leaves Henderson as the one DM. Keita could play there, but that would limit him and his ability too much I think. I'm hoping Klopp then goes looking to bring someone in for that position, preferrably someone who can replace Henderson in the starting eleven. A midfield of for example Jorginho, Keita and Lallana would set the league on fire. Wijnaldum, Henderson and Alex as stand ins is very good strenght in depth.

Good post mate.

Don't know too much about Jorginho, but he seems a lot more attack minded based on those figures. For me Henderson is not an attacking weapon, one of 3 outfield players in our team that don't have an attack first mindset. He could be better at setting the tempo, I agree but for me it's the players he's passing to. So many complain about how he 'passes 5 or six times in a row to the same player' well they're the ones giving it back to him and unless they're playing centre back, it's their job to start the attack, not Henderson.

Good post mate.

Don't know too much about Jorginho, but he seems a lot more attack minded based on those figures. For me Henderson is not an attacking weapon, one of 3 outfield players in our team that don't have an attack first mindset. He could be better at setting the tempo, I agree but for me it's the players he's passing to. So many complain about how he 'passes 5 or six times in a row to the same player' well they're the ones giving it back to him and unless they're playing centre back, it's their job to start the attack, not Henderson.

If you look at some videos of him, you'll find that Jorginho plays a very similar position and role to Henderson's. Often dropping deep just in front of the CB's too, sometimes pressing higher up the pitch, keeping hold of the ball, keeping the game ticking, ... A lot of what he does, is very similar to what Henderson does.

The big differences are that he's much more comfortable on the ball even when under pressure (Henderson caves and runs towards his own goal when under pressure), he's more comfortable and better at playing (riskier) forward balls through lines (Henderson more often than not will choose the safe option, which isn't always a bad option!) , he needs far less touches on the ball than Henderson which makes him able to shift play much, much quicker. One moment you'll find him playing the exact same balls as Henderson between the CB's while his attacking teammates are setting themselves up, then he'll turn towards the opposition goal and suddenly up the tempo with a decisive vertical pass starting of attacking moves. That's something Henderson very rarely does.

Henderson indeed isn't an attacking weapon, that's not his role. I don't need him to give a bunch of assists or score goals. He is our regulator in midfield and as our regulator, he decides, from deep, when we start an attack and that's something he's just not particularly good at.

Here's a video, I know it's a highlights video and that they never give the full picture, but it gives you an idea of his position, his role and what I mean with his forward passing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av6vzw3Qzkk

Another good example of what I mean really is the United game. Henderson did do his job well that game, bar one aspect of his job. You say that our other midfielders have to start attacks. If you want them to start attacks, they have to drop deep to start the attack from there, if they do, there's no one to receive the ball between the lines (unless Henderson moves further up the pitch, but he's no good receiving the ball between the lines). What you saw against United for example was Coutinho dropping deep, sometimes even next to or behind Henderson. The reason he did that is because Henderson couldn't find him between the lines to get attacks started (he has to start them, not give the assist or something) because he's not good at playing these kind of passes. So Coutinho drops deep and he does play them, because his forward passing is much better.

Another good example of what I mean really is the United game. Henderson did do his job well that game, bar one aspect of his job. You say that our other midfielders have to start attacks. If you want them to start attacks, they have to drop deep to start the attack from there, if they do, there's no one to receive the ball between the lines (unless Henderson moves further up the pitch, but he's no good receiving the ball between the lines). What you saw against United for example was Coutinho dropping deep, sometimes even next to or behind Henderson. The reason he did that is because Henderson couldn't find him between the lines to get attacks started (he has to start them, not give the assist or something) because he's not good at playing these kind of passes. So Coutinho drops deep and he does play them, because his forward passing is much better.

This has been my thinking for a while too, even going back to certain clips where you see how dominate Lucas is on the ball from deep, you will see Coutinho higher up the pitch (just check out Lucas levia vs on YT vids) and less influential from deep. You can also see this too when he plays for Brazil.

Then you check out the Coutinho this season for us and see how he is heavily involved from deep because we don't have a proper distributor in the #6 role. It doesn't even have to be an Alonso type, again, I refer back to Lucas vs YT vids and you will see it can still be achieved with a DM (obviously not as good as a DLPM).

I still believe Hendo is the right choice for captain, and I still believe he should be Lallana's replacement (more so how Allan is utilized at Napoli), or perhaps even ahead of him, just not as a #6

Anyway, on a side note, I can't wait to see City vs Napoli on Tuesday as they are both exceptional possession based teams (I personally think Napoli's midfield is up there with City and Real), just hope they won't spoil the score when I'm watching us vs Maribor

This has been my thinking for a while too, even going back to certain clips where you see how dominate Lucas is on the ball from deep, you will see Coutinho higher up the pitch (just check out Lucas levia vs on YT vids) and less influential from deep. You can also see this too when he plays for Brazil.

Then you check out the Coutinho this season for us and see how he is heavily involved he is from deep because we don't have a proper distributor in the #6 role. It doesn't even have to be an Alonso type, again, I refer back to Lucas vs YT vids and you will see it can still be achieved with a DM (obviously not as good as a DLPM).

I still believe Hendo is the right choice for captain, and I still believe he should be Lallana's replacement (similar to how Allan is utilized at Napoli), or perhaps even ahead of him, just not as a #6

Anyway, on a side note, I can't wait to see City vs Napoli on Tuesday as they are both exceptional possession based teams (I personally think Napoli's midfield is up there with City and Real), just hope they won't spoil the score when I'm watching us vs Maribor

Just to give you your credit mate, you mentioned Jorginho to me many weeks ago when this discussion came up earlier and it's very interesting that both you and now Danzel have mentioned the same player.

I'll watch that City/Napoli game for sure with great interest in this lad now.

Apparently Tite is interested in calling Jorginho to the Brazilian national team. He's played for Italy a couple of times but only in friendlies so he would be allowed to switch allegiances under current rules. With the likes of Casemiro and Paulinho already in the team, that will mean very good midfield depth for Brazil.

Just to give you your credit mate, you mentioned Jorginho to me many weeks ago when this discussion came up earlier and it's very interesting that both you and now Danzel have mentioned the same player.

Mate, the credit goes to Rafa who signed him and nurtured him into the player he is today Rafa really does like his DLPM's, doesn't he?

And I only started watching Napoli because I whined so much to my Napoli friend about our midfield in which he pointed me towards Jorginho, and called him a mobile Alonso.

You do realise that a lot of this is much more down to our system, the CBs are instructed to pass to Henderson, therefore he is given possession much more than those you list. His forward passes are very often to the wingbacks/fullbacks who have advanced and are unmarked. They aren't penetrative passes and they aren't tempo inducing passes. Again the example I listed before will give him 4 forward passes to Gomez, were they really doing anything other than passing responsibility, no.

Behave, Kante and Fernandinho? As for Ramsey I haven't watched Arsenal this season so can't comment on him.

Yep, he's improving on this to be fair to him. He's still not up to standard for a real 6, but improving.

Again Mags, this has to be taken into context, because so often this pass is out wide, so the distance it travels is maybe 40 yards, but has it accomplished anything, no!

Yes, because his style of tackling is very much to harass the player off the ball rather than to commit and this also means that Henderson is far less likely to win a challenge he begins unfavoured for. This is why many of us call for a proper 6 to play there such as Mascherano. Will he commit far more fouls, damn right he will, will he give away the odd penalty, damn right he will but he'll also rescue many more situations that are already looking like we're going to concede, Henderson will not. When did he last do a barnstorming tackle (considering he does so many of them) which saved a goal, when has he come sliding in to block an almost definite goal, how about tactical fouls, he just doesn't have it in him. He's a fair minded, fair player and honestly in this position you need someone street smart and streetwise who know when to tip the scales back in our favour, by fair means or foul.

I have learned more about our players from reading your post in 4 months than I have in 5 years of watching the club. In the words of Benidict Cumberbatch in Doctor Strange "Teach Me!!!!"

Check out Newcastle's 2nd goal vs Southampton and the build up play, and see the simple pass by Shelvey. Honestly, how many times have we seen Hendo play balls like that to initiate attacks? How many times does he look for players in those pockets of space? Something so simple, yet so effective that Hendo struggles to do imo.

It isn't really about his creativity from deep, it's his poor distribution that makes me wonder if it affects players like Wijnaldum and Coutinho.

I think that’s an incredibly  unfair comparison though mate.

Firstly because it’s so recent and burns in the memory....

Secondly because we don’t set up like Newcastle or Man Ure on Saturday etc etc......None of our midfield (including Phil) are prolific in that regard. As I’ve said before it’s much easier to make those passes against teams that come out.

Thirdly because they are different players. Credit to Shelvey - he’s always been extremely ambitious in his passing. A trait I’ve admired - I wouldn’t have sold him precisely for that reason.

If that pass is on Henderson makes it no probs.

Henderson isn't creative enough to be in the role he plays. Even defensive midfielders should contribute more. I Echo Luke's argument that he could play like Gerrard under Rodgers, however I was never a fan of that system so I'd rather just get rid.

Ah that's very interesting. I think his role is about as far away from Gerrard's role as is possible. I think it's his job to make sure we always have the ball, and he's excellent at it, the fact that he recovers the ball about as much as Kante only proves that. I think it's the other 2 centre midfielders role to create chances and they are failing miserably at it.

Can is competent at playing Henderson's role, I would like to see more rotation in games where Henderson is let off his leash. It's happened maybe one or two times this year, his showing against Leicester being one but he's very disciplined and you can see he's following his remit until Klopp gives him more freedom to express. Wish he'd allow him that freedom more often.

So you really think that Klopp has said to Hendo "Look lad, what I need you to do is get the ball from a team mate and immediately pass it 2 yards to your left, right or backwards to another player, and repeat all game. Maybe one or two times a match you can move into the box and I'll allow you 3-4 shots per game but you must promise to put them at least 10 yards above the goal." If that is not what Klopp's instructions are then Hendo is not following the script, if that is Klopp's instructions then what the actual F**k is going on in Klopp's head, what the hell is the point of just keeping possession especially against bus parkers and creating feck all?

So you really think that Klopp has said to Hendo "Look lad, what I need you to do is get the ball from a team mate and immediately pass it 2 yards to your left, right or backwards to another player, and repeat all game. Maybe one or two times a match you can move into the box and I'll allow you 3-4 shots per game but you must promise to put them at least 10 yards above the goal." If that is not what Klopp's instructions are then Hendo is not following the script, if that is Klopp's instructions then what the actual F**k is going on in Klopp's head, what the hell is the point of just keeping possession especially against bus parkers and creating feck all?

* Hendo only passes sideways
* Hendo has 3-4 shots per game
* Hendo always shoots off target

3 unabashed statements you've made there. I urge you to prove it. Come on, call my bluff. You want to talk so much sh*t, start backing some of it up. 

Henderson is mediocre at best. Which top 6 sides can he get into (apart from us of course)? No one that's who and he is our captain. He is good enough to play for the bitters - simples.

* Hendo only passes sideways
* Hendo has 3-4 shots per game
* Hendo always shoots off target

3 unabashed statements you've made there. I urge you to prove it. Come on, call my bluff. You want to talk so much sh*t, start backing some of it up. 

How would I prove it and how would you disprove it?

How would I prove it and how would you disprove it?

There are statistics that measure every single minute of every single game. There are several websites that measure each players every move. It's not hard to try and back up your statements, just takes a little research. If you do, I think you'll find your statements to be false.

Henderson over the last five years;

13/14 - five goals, six assists.
14/15 - seven goals, ten assists.
15/16 - two goals, one assist.
16/17 - one goal, two assists.
17/18 - one goal, no assists.

So what's gone wrong in the last few years? He doesn't have that creative player beside him, like he did in Gerrard. He's also not played as far forward as he was when he had Gerrard beside him. Even in the last few years when Lucas has been played, Henderson has been asked to still sit deep.

Get somebody else to play the deeper of the three midfielders role, who is creative and allow Henderson to go back to what he was. A fella who ran around a lot, harried the opposition, won the ball and released the more skillful players quickly and then you'll see the best of Jordan Henderson again.

But Klopp obviously likes him in this current role, as he's played him there whenever he can since the day he arrived.

13/14 - five goals, six assists.
14/15 - seven goals, ten assists.
15/16 - two goals, one assist.
16/17 - one goal, two assists.
17/18 - one goal, no assists.

So what's gone wrong in the last few years?

14/15 he played 54 games, then he played 26 and 27 games in all comps in our last two seasons.  Not saying that is the entire reason for the change in goal stats but just putting a little bit of context to it.

His role has definitely changed to a more defensive midfield role, but that's only because Wijnaldum, Can, Lallana, Coutinho are all far more credible goal threats as midfielders.

I don't mind overly that he doesn't bang in the goals from that position - the likes of Mascherano didn't but what I do mind is that he doesn't either have the ability, or do it often enough, to play that long raking pass that takes out opposition midfield or defences or to switch play across the pitch.

My personal view is that he does tend to look for an easy pass (in any direction! ) but as the 'quarter-back' of a midfield three you should be the one looking up to see what damage you can inflict.

De Bruyne has more assists in one game than our wonderful captain has in 2 and a half seasons, deluded fans need to wake up, he has gone backwards 100%, never in a million years is he good enough for LFC, although the lack of movement up top doesn't help.

There are statistics that measure every single minute of every single game. There are several websites that measure each players every move. It's not hard to try and back up your statements, just takes a little research. If you do, I think you'll find your statements to be false.

Oh I'm certain then that they back up your point of view but I trust my own eyes and what I see in every match are the majority of moves either being slowed down or broken via Henderson. As I've said he is decent at tackling and pressuring but we need a midfielder and captain who is capable of much much more. He needs to be the one initiating moves, keeping a move ticking along, spotting that defence splitting passes etc in addition to tackling and pressing.

Oh I'm certain then that they back up your point of view but I trust my own view and what I see in every match are the majority of moves either being slowed down or broken via Henderson. As I've said he is decent at tackling and pressuring but we need a midfielder and captain who is capable of much much more. He needs to be the one initiating moves, keeping a move ticking along, spotting that defence splitting passes etc in addition to tackling and pressing.

Man...

I really feel like I'm talking to a brick wall sometimes.

His role is clearly to give it to our 'creative players' who in turn make the chances. However he also does create attacking moves from time to time. In fact here is where he ranks:

1. Coutinho - 3.89 chances created per game
2. Firmino - 2.42 chances created per game
3. Henderson - 1.57 chances created per game
4. Salah - 1.53 chances created per game
5. Moreno - 1.50 chances created per game
6. Can - 1.22 chances created per game
7. Mane - 0.99 chances created per game
6. Gini - 0.62 chances created per game

Clearly the other players around him are not pulling their weight. The fact that Henderson (in my opinion) isn't even in the team to create from deep and he is still making more chances than our other 2 midfield players actually makes me wonder what the F**k are Can and Gini even doing. They tackle less, pass less, run less, retrieve the ball less and create less than Jordan. In the league this year, Henderson is the midfielder in our team that wins the ball back the most, has scored the most and has created the most and yet gets the most stick.

So look, say all you want, trust 'what you see' all you want... However like I said earlier, people have what they see and I have what I see... but all I'm asking for is evidence. If I can find evidence to justify my views, I'm sure other people can too.

De Bruyne has more assists in one game than our wonderful captain has in 2 and a half seasons, deluded fans need to wake up, he has gone backwards 100%, never in a million years is he good enough for LFC, although the lack of movement up top doesn't help.

I mean...

If you even think they play in the same role I don't even know what to say to you.

14/15 he played 54 games, then he played 26 and 27 games in all comps in our last two seasons.  Not saying that is the entire reason for the change in goal stats but just putting a little bit of context to it.

His role has definitely changed to a more defensive midfield role, but that's only because Wijnaldum, Can, Lallana, Coutinho are all far more credible goal threats as midfielders.

I don't mind overly that he doesn't bang in the goals from that position - the likes of Mascherano didn't but what I do mind is that he doesn't either have the ability, or do it often enough, to play that long raking pass that takes out opposition midfield or defences or to switch play across the pitch.

My personal view is that he does tend to look for an easy pass (in any direction! ) but as the 'quarter-back' of a midfield three you should be the one looking up to see what damage you can inflict.

I know he's played less in the last couple of years than the two or three before that due to injuries but it's the change of position that has knocked down his goal and assist tally more than number of games in my opinion.

I can't agree that Wijanldum and Can are bigger goal threats. Gini scored six last year, Emre's best return is five goals in a season. Henderson's best is seven. And between 12/13 to 14/15 he got 18 goals. I think if Henderson was played in the roles Can and Wijnaldum currently play in, he'd score more than they currently are. Neither Emre or Gini have a Premier League goal this season.

The passing is a problem for me as well because he does have the ability. He's proven it time and time again. But they're more exception than the rule. I think he suffers from a lack of confidence and that's why he doesn't play them more often. I'm happy you've mentioned Mascherano though because when I had these same issues with him (lack of goals and lack of creativity) the argument always was "it's not his job" (it wasn't Lucas' either when he was played as the deepest midfielder) but it seems it is the job of Henderson and he's then crucified for not doing it.

I do agree he looks for the simple pass and while it infuriates me (and a lot of others by the looks of things) it's clearly not bothering the manager as he keeps picking him whenever he's able to. And he picks him to play that role. I don't think it's Henderson's best role, as I've said I'd rather he played further forward and done the running around job that he played alongside Gerrard but at the minute Klopp sees it differently.

I think that’s an incredibly  unfair comparison though mate.

Firstly because it’s so recent and burns in the memory....

Secondly because we don’t set up like Newcastle or Man Ure on Saturday etc etc......None of our midfield (including Phil) are prolific in that regard. As I’ve said before it’s much easier to make those passes against teams that come out.

Thirdly because they are different players. Credit to Shelvey - he’s always been extremely ambitious in his passing. A trait I’ve admired - I wouldn’t have sold him precisely for that reason.

If that pass is on Henderson makes it no probs.

I don't think the setup is a huge factor as you will always have players free in those pockets of space, whether a limited amount or not, but the question I pose, how often does our deep lying midfielder look for those passes? And in our case, I think Hendo rarely does and struggles doing this.

I decided to watch a relatively easy match where we had the brunt of the possession vs a defensive team, and re-watching the Crystal Palace home match first half (haven't watched the 2nd yet!), Henderson had 10 opportunities to pass it into our players in those pockets of space (he only made one pass in the first half), but was over looked for killer or safe options (pretty much sums up Henderson), whether they would have been the right option or not I don't know, but the point is, he very rarely looks for those passes.

I get he is a different type of midfielder to Shelvey in a different setup, and I'm not asking him to play Hollywood balls or to create like a Fabregas etc, I just want to see our #6 distribute the ball like how a #6 would/should and to be more positionally aware. I also get it is not Henderson's fault because he doesn't ask to be played there, right? And the question I keep asking myself, what does Klopp (and even Rodgers) like so much about Hendo in that role?

His role has definitely changed to a more defensive midfield role, but that's only because Wijnaldum, Can, Lallana, Coutinho are all far more credible goal threats as midfielders.

Just mho, but for me he's back there not because Gini or Can have more goal threat, but rather because they have less discipline than Hendo does. Personally couldn't really see either of them back there, possibly Can, but his concentration drifts.
I'd love to see him breaking into the box, cause think he can finish. But he hardly ever gets up that far, and like anything when you stop doing it regularly, you need time to get back in the knack.
If I had to pick someone to take a peno between the 3 CMs, would be Hendo. Not sure what that proves though