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      We need to talk about Henderson...

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      Magillionare
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #207: Oct 18, 2017 07:21:09 pm
      He is not ridiculing the statistics shown by HScRed1, he says he doesn't fully understand them, which is something entirely different. I for one don't understand how they measure the 'buildup' either, there's no explanation for it anywhere on that page.

      Also, the reason why we looked better in midfield isn't because Henderson wasn't playing. It's because Can was taken away from the #8 position in midfield and replaced by Milner, who is by far the more intelligent player. He might not be as talented as Can, but his understanding of when to press and his overall awareness of the shape of our team, is a lot better. That's why we looked better. Can did nothing that Henderson wouldn't have done in that game, you could've replaced Can by Henderson and we likely would have seen a very similar scoreline.

      The possession adjusted totals are explained as:"PAdj stands for “possession adjusted” stats. The reason why we do this is because it normalizes defensive stats for opportunity. Think about it this way: If your teammates always have the ball, then you can’t make any defensive actions, and you would look worse in this statistic compared to a Tony Pulis-style team that sits deep and constantly defends.

      When adjusted for possession, tackles and interception output becomes moderately correlated with shots conceded and goals against, as opposed to having no correlation without the adjustment."

      So basically, if you were to compare our CB's to as said in the example, the CB's in a Pulis team, without the adjustment of the PAdj, our CB's would always look worse or they would have lower statistics in all defensive categories (clearances, blocks, tackles, ...) because we have the majority of possession and our CB's have to make less defensive actions. The PAdj tries to adjust these statistics to make both sets of CB's more comparable.



      Ah fair enough. Cheers mate.
      heimdall
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #208: Oct 18, 2017 07:26:34 pm
      What are you on about I've said I don't understand what they mean fully but did not shy away from accepting them.

      As for the other statement, won't justify that with a response, you're clearly fishing for something you won't be getting.

      Bloody hell, was just taking the Michael a bit hence the smiley.
      Did we miss Henderson though, do you think we would have scored more goals with him in the team, serious question?

      KopiteLuke
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #209: Oct 18, 2017 07:46:10 pm
      Not sure how anyone is using last night as a negative for Henderson.

      Using it as a negative for Can / Gini as the #8 compared to what Milner brought to the team, that's the clearest comparison and difference you could see last night.

      Now I'm not saying Can didn't bring more than Hendo as the #6 but you'd have to some kind of clairvoyant to say that with any certainty off the back of that performance.
      Magillionare
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #210: Oct 18, 2017 08:17:06 pm
      Bloody hell, was just taking the Michael a bit hence the smiley.
      Did we miss Henderson though, do you think we would have scored more goals with him in the team, serious question?



      Ah fair, didn't see that, apologies.

      And I think if you or I played we still would have hammered them. Would imagine it would have been around the same with Henderson in the team, would be interested in seeing Can or Gini come out and Milner step in to see how Milner does against a real team.
      -LFC-
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #211: Oct 18, 2017 08:20:10 pm
      The fact he is captain plus the absence of a genuinely top class CM sharpens the focus on Hendo.

      With Can improving and Keita to come in next summer that shouldn't be as much of an issue in the future (if we keep Can), although the questions will persist given his role in the team and the simple fact that he just doesn't compare to any of our great or top class CMs of the past.

      I wouldn't like to see him leave, though. A good player well worth keeping.

      Mags is not going to like the stats but looking at the drop off in Hendo's tackles and interceptions he should be no where near the team playing as the DM.

      https://twitter.com/mixedknuts/status/920340859215892480

      Kim Jong-Hendo
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #212: Oct 18, 2017 08:35:08 pm
      Even though Henderson's struggling this season I'd still rather have him as our DM than Can.

      I'd find it hard to argue against anyone saying we need to improve overall in that position though.
      billythered
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #213: Oct 18, 2017 10:19:55 pm
      Its been on my mind for quite a while now, that I'm becoming more convinced that Jordan's days at LFC are numbered,

      Milner took his chance last night with aplomb and if we are all honest would say keep him there, Hendo for whatever reason simply hasn't been anywhere near the level we need him to be,
      Don't get me wrong here Milner isn't the answer either, however, his mantra is to head for goal rather than opting to go sideways or back,
      I can't imagine that Klopp prefers Henderson to be more conservative and prefer seeing the play slowed down with his constant negative passing, after all isnt the objective of his system to get the ball forward asap to allow speed of attack ,

      We seen last night how much better we were going forward quicker , the result speaks for itself , imo Henderson is the least likely of our mids to take us forward, Can & Gini although not pulling up trees at least  are more attack minded and endeavour to turn towards goal at every opportunity,

      I think Henderson has reached his level/ peak of his abilities, his better performances are few and far between and obviously cannot sustain a level of consistency,

      If Liverpool are to dine at the top most table we need players way above the level of the Jordan Henderson' s of this world.

      YNWA
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #214: Oct 18, 2017 10:33:50 pm
      Its been on my mind for quite a while now, that I'm becoming more convinced that Jordan's days at LFC are numbered,

      Milner took his chance last night with aplomb and if we are all honest would say keep him there, Hendo for whatever reason simply hasn't been anywhere near the level we need him to be,
      Don't get me wrong here Milner isn't the answer either, however, his mantra is to head for goal rather than opting to go sideways or back,
      I can't imagine that Klopp prefers Henderson to be more conservative and prefer seeing the play slowed down with his constant negative passing, after all isnt the objective of his system to get the ball forward asap to allow speed of attack ,

      We seen last night how much better we were going forward quicker , the result speaks for itself , imo Henderson is the least likely of our mids to take us forward, Can & Gini although not pulling up trees at least  are more attack minded and endeavour to turn towards goal at every opportunity,

      I think Henderson has reached his level/ peak of his abilities, his better performances are few and far between and obviously cannot sustain a level of consistency,

      If Liverpool are to dine at the top most table we need players way above the level of the Jordan Henderson' s of this world.

      YNWA

      What I like most about Milner is that even on the days where he isn't having such a great match he still plugs away, seeking for the best route to goal. The last 20 minutes in our draw to Burnley last month showed that - he was the only player making the darting runs and desperately trying to make something of a match that had turned stale. And it was no better exemplified in the Dortmund home match where the crowd really got on his back for failed corner after failed corner and then near the death he floats in that perfect cross onto the forehead of Dejan Lovren. Lesser men would have shrunk away in such a challenging environment that the crowd unhelpfully posed to him but Milner's no lesser man.

      He is not just physically tough he is mentally tough as well. The biggest compliment I can pay to James is that he would have been an asset to Liverpool at any point in the last 15 years whether the team was great or poor. Not just down to his flexibility to play in whichever place he is told to, it's down to his work rate and his tough yet consistently positive mindset. He's been such a big credit to himself and all the clubs he has played for even if he's never really received that recognition. I only wish we had got hold of him 10 years ago.
      Ribapuru
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #215: Oct 18, 2017 10:45:09 pm
      Mags is not going to like the stats but looking at the drop off in Hendo's tackles and interceptions he should be no where near the team playing as the DM.

      https://twitter.com/mixedknuts/status/920340859215892480
      no wonder we concede so many, he constantly gives the ball away.
      billythered
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #216: Oct 19, 2017 08:03:22 am
      What I like most about Milner is that even on the days where he isn't having such a great match he still plugs away, seeking for the best route to goal. The last 20 minutes in our draw to Burnley last month showed that - he was the only player making the darting runs and desperately trying to make something of a match that had turned stale. And it was no better exemplified in the Dortmund home match where the crowd really got on his back for failed corner after failed corner and then near the death he floats in that perfect cross onto the forehead of Dejan Lovren. Lesser men would have shrunk away in such a challenging environment that the crowd unhelpfully posed to him but Milner's no lesser man.

      He is not just physically tough he is mentally tough as well. The biggest compliment I can pay to James is that he would have been an asset to Liverpool at any point in the last 15 years whether the team was great or poor. Not just down to his flexibility to play in whichever place he is told to, it's down to his work rate and his tough yet consistently positive mindset. He's been such a big credit to himself and all the clubs he has played for even if he's never really received that recognition. I only wish we had got hold of him 10 years ago.


      Fully agree mate, same feelings as when McAllister joined us, wish he had joined us yrs before,

      Milner in the twilight of his career can still give us his best and like you so rightly said wont give up, i hope Jürgen rewards him with a starting place against Spuds !

      YNWA
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #217: Oct 19, 2017 09:51:05 am
      I agree on Henderson being awful, but I am thinking this could be merged with the Henderson thread?
      My topic on Henderson's captaincy is different since it is discussing a specific aspect, where this one is just a second general Henderson topic.
      I could create a lets talk about Moreno, Mignolet thread, as anyone else could about any player they don't approve of.
      Don't get me wrong, can't stand seeing Hendo in our team.. but this thread should be merged.
      The sad thing is, half the posts in this thread aren't even against Henderson anymore.
      Magillionare
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #218: Oct 19, 2017 10:31:59 am
      no wonder we concede so many, he constantly gives the ball away.

      I know I don't have the best understanding of that graph but where are you getting the 'gives the ball away' bit from?
      Ribapuru
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #219: Oct 19, 2017 10:38:06 am
      I know I don't have the best understanding of that graph but where are you getting the 'gives the ball away' bit from?
      The stat that says dispossessed.
      Magillionare
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #220: Oct 19, 2017 10:40:42 am
      The stat that says dispossessed.

      :lmao:

      You mean the one that the further out it goes the less you're dispossessed? And the one that Henderson's is as far out as it goes?

      Wow.
      LondonRed83
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #221: Oct 19, 2017 10:47:24 am
      :lmao:

      You mean the one that the further out it goes the less you're dispossessed? And the one that Henderson's is as far out as it goes?

      Wow.

      To me that says it all, he plays it safe all the time so you expect that stat to be strong.
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #222: Oct 19, 2017 10:57:26 am
      :lmao:

      You mean the one that the further out it goes the less you're dispossessed? And the one that Henderson's is as far out as it goes?

      Wow.
      I should not have told you because you are twisting it, it says one word which is dispossessed, it means how often Henderson loses the ball. Of the overall stats the author, who provides a lot of these charts, notes it is a cause for concern. You are a strange individual indeed.
      Magillionare
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #223: Oct 19, 2017 11:10:53 am
      I should not have told you because you are twisting it, it says one word which is dispossessed, it means how often Henderson loses the ball. Of the overall stats the author, who provides a lot of these charts, notes it is a cause for concern. You are a strange individual indeed.


      What are you talking about! Read the chart, you're embarrassing yourself here.

      That chart for dispossessed starts in the centre for 2.7 times per 90 minutes (which would be bad) and as it goes out to the edges it is 0.5 and under per 90 minutes (which would be good).  He notes the overall chart as a cause for concern, but you point out:

      The stat that says dispossessed.

      As your main concern and now your new flavour of the month is 'Henderson gives the ball away too much' based on you reading the chart wrong. It took all of 2 minutes for you to go off posting this:

      Where was Henderson? Twiddling thumbs on the bench, at least he was not giving the ball away like usual.

      Come on! I mean this is misinformed and mindless. Don't you have anything to say for yourself? 0 substance as usual.

      I find it funny I've been asking you to back up your claims for weeks now and the one time you do, you read the stats wrong and end up making a tit of it! Maybe you should just stick to the uninformed drivel. I disagree with plenty on here about many things, Henderson included but you my friend are the only one who wouldn't have just gone 'oh I read that wrong, my bad'.

      What's next? He should be giving the ball away more? You didn't just mean the dispossessed bit even though you explicitly mentioned it as the only reason for your posts when I gave you the platform to back up your views... Or is the standard Ripa response of saying nothing once your nonsense has been pinned down?

      Zero substance sir, zero substance.

      Harrisimo
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #224: Oct 19, 2017 12:05:42 pm
      Hendo isn't a play maker, can't really play in the hole, isn't that great at supporting the attack, hardly goal scoring midfield player.

      Has 24 goals in 250 games for us, bout 1 in 10...but Carrick has only 24 in 460. So his goal stats while not great are just about acceptable.

      Seems to me that the main complaint about Hendo is he just to slow in getting the ball forward, he lays it off, he knocks it square. He isn't positive enough. These are legit complaints. Even a delay in a second or two makes a huge difference.

      If you want your creative players to do something you have to give them the ball early, when they have that half a yard of space, even in innocuous situations an early ball gives them a chance, a slight delay can stop anything positive.

      Henderson has to think quicker, get it give it. I personally doubt he can really lead this club to anything significant. Top 4 at the skin off our teeth is about the height of it. Although if the manager had bought a genuine goal scorer we might not have a thread like this.
      GERNS
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #225: Oct 19, 2017 08:11:49 pm
      Although if the manager had bought a genuine goal scorer we might not have a thread like this.

      But if Jürgen had bought a genuine goal scorer, would Hendo have got the ball forward any quicker, for the said goal scorer to have any significant impact ?

      Just not good enough to be the main playmaker is he.
      Harrisimo
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #226: Oct 19, 2017 09:28:16 pm
      But if Jürgen had bought a genuine goal scorer, would Hendo have got the ball forward any quicker, for the said goal scorer to have any significant impact ?

      Just not good enough to be the main playmaker is he.

      Well we have created enough chances for at least another 4-6 goals. If we had a real striker, one who focuses the attack, one who is predatory, we might,regardless of Hendo been in the top 4 at least. Hendo didn't get this stick when Suarez was on blob.

      Hendo does at time get it in there, so he might say it's the movement in front of him that dictates the ball he plays.
      LFCSTEVE1984
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #227: Oct 20, 2017 09:21:56 am
      Well we have created enough chances for at least another 4-6 goals. If we had a real striker, one who focuses the attack, one who is predatory, we might,regardless of Hendo been in the top 4 at least. Hendo didn't get this stick when Suarez was on blob.

      Hendo does at time get it in there, so he might say it's the movement in front of him that dictates the ball he plays.

      Nar mate nothing to do with the movement we have runners everywhere in front of him.

      You only have to look at when he passes back to matip or lovren. As soon as they get the ball they usually play the forward pass Hendo should have played in the first place.
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #228: Oct 20, 2017 11:22:08 am
      Nar mate nothing to do with the movement we have runners everywhere in front of him.

      You only have to look at when he passes back to matip or lovren. As soon as they get the ball they usually play the forward pass Hendo should have played in the first place.
      I am not sure Henderson has the ability to play those forward passes though. I seen somebody illustrate a few pages back the passes he missed, I am not sure if it is his awareness or inability. It could be he has no confidence to make that pass, who knows. It's been going on a while now, when Henderson has a few good games and all of a sudden he is validated again, then slumps into months of garbage performances and people are like Henderson okay, no other better players around...
      AussieRed
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #229: Oct 20, 2017 11:33:16 am
      6 pages since I was last in here. What's happened? Do we have a new Captain?

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