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      We need to talk about Henderson...

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      sore monad
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #325: Nov 03, 2017 09:40:31 pm
      The 08/09 team and the 13/14 were both sides that got close to being great. It's really frustrating that twice, so recently, we had sides that were on the verge of being very special, and we let it slip both times.

      The first time there is no argument about who was to blame - H&G. The second time there were some extenuating circumstances - Suarez kept biting people, Stevie got older, Sturridge got injured - but the bottom line is FSG let us down by not replacing these players with similar quality. They tried to wing it with "value" replacements and the team went backwards fast. Pisses me off thinking about it.

      Anyway, I'm not actually sure what this has got to do with Hendo, other than that he was in that 13/14 side and didn't let us down as far as I'm concerned. If he's the best leader/midfielder we've got that's not his fault, it's the fault of FSG for fannying around with inferior players in too many positions. It's laughable to targeting one of our better players ( and best leader in the judgement of both BR and Jürgen) when we're clearly far worse off in other positions.
      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #326: Nov 03, 2017 10:16:42 pm

      The second time there were some extenuating circumstances - Suarez kept biting people, Stevie got older, Sturridge got injured


      Ok...


      Quote
      Hendo, other than that he was in that 13/14 side and didn't let us down as far as I'm concerned.


      He got sent off and served a 3 match ban during the run in, when the title was in our hands, where was he? Serving a suspension, for 3 of our last 4 games. Yet you deem Suarez being banned among your extenuating circumstances?
      That’s not letting us down?
      Scotia
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #327: Nov 04, 2017 07:46:38 am
      Ok...


      He got sent off and served a 3 match ban during the run in, when the title was in our hands, where was he? Serving a suspension, for 3 of our last 4 games. Yet you deem Suarez being banned among your extenuating circumstances?
      That’s not letting us down?

      Don’t be daft mate - you don’t rate now and that’s fine but he didn’t let us down then at all.

      He mistimed a tackle whilst we were under bit of pressure trying to hold onto our 3-2 lead.....having already lost a 2-0 lead.

      To say he let us down - is just gilding the lily in an already flawed narrative.

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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #328: Nov 04, 2017 10:34:07 am
      Don’t be daft mate - you don’t rate now and that’s fine but he didn’t let us down then at all.

      He mistimed a tackle whilst we were under bit of pressure trying to hold onto our 3-2 lead.....having already lost a 2-0 lead.

      To say he let us down - is just gilding the lily in an already flawed narrative.



      Not being daft at all but there can’t be “extenuating circumstances” such as Suarez being banned and things like Gerrard being older (bloody ridiculous argument that, look at Scholes/Terry etc) and Sturridge being injured but then not include a regular first team player being suspended for 3 of the last 4 games. Mistimed tackle or a complete wreck less one, it doesn’t matter, the outcome was the same in terms of his availability.
      Scotia
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #329: Nov 04, 2017 10:42:47 am
      Not being daft at all but there can’t be “extenuating circumstances” such as Suarez being banned and things like Gerrard being older (bloody ridiculous argument that, look at Scholes/Terry etc) and Sturridge being injured but then not include a regular first team player being suspended for 3 of the last 4 games.

      Totally disagree - players get sent off.

      He was over-reaching desperately trying to make up for a bad first touch. It happens - especially late on in games.

      Listen I’m one of the kid’s advocates - but I’ll criticise where it’s fair. On that one I just think it was something and nothing - saying he let the team down is (for me) bending the facts to suit a narrative.

      But hey - it’s 4 years ago so whatever.....

      PS: agree with you re Gerrard and no excuse for Suarez ban - he f#ckin’ bit someone ffs ;)
      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #330: Nov 04, 2017 11:49:36 am
      Totally disagree - players get sent off.

      He was over-reaching desperately trying to make up for a bad first touch. It happens - especially late on in games.

      Listen I’m one of the kid’s advocates - but I’ll criticise where it’s fair. On that one I just think it was something and nothing - saying he let the team down is (for me) bending the facts to suit a narrative.

      But hey - it’s 4 years ago so whatever.....

      PS: agree with you re Gerrard and no excuse for Suarez ban - he f#ckin’ bit someone ffs ;)

      Where have I actually said he let us down mate? I didn’t give an opinion either way, look back and you will see I was raising it as a question as to why that sending off wasn’t an extenuating circumstance. If that was just an unlucky sending off then surely that’s the same as a player being unlucky with an injury? Either way there were players missing that season so surely they should all come under the same bracket regardless of the reason as to why they were missing?
      Scotia
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #331: Nov 04, 2017 11:55:10 am
      Where have I actually said he let us down mate? I didn’t give an opinion either way, look back and you will see I was raising it as a question as to why that sending off wasn’t an extenuating circumstance. If that was just an unlucky sending off then surely that’s the same as a player being unlucky with an injury? Either way there were players missing that season so surely they should all come under the same bracket regardless of the reason as to why they were missing?

      Apols if misunderstood mate.

      I’m now in the middle of painting the sitting room (apparently we’ve a new sofa coming in a fortnight!) so im not gonna get chance to go looking back.

      There’s a lot in here blame him for every ill that befalls us and it’s just not fair / rational......I’m just primed for that type cannon fodder.

      Peace out. There emulsioning to be done ;)
      sore monad
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #332: Nov 04, 2017 03:23:51 pm
      Not being daft at all but there can’t be “extenuating circumstances” such as Suarez being banned and things like Gerrard being older (bloody ridiculous argument that, look at Scholes/Terry etc) and Sturridge being injured but then not include a regular first team player being suspended for 3 of the last 4 games. Mistimed tackle or a complete wreck less one, it doesn’t matter, the outcome was the same in terms of his availability.

      Think you've misunderstood my post mate. I wasn't saying those were the reasons we didn't win the league, I was saying they were among the reasons why that team that had got to the level where they could compete for the league then when went into decline afterwards.
      I was also saying that ultimately the fault lay with FSG for not replacing those players who either declined or left with players of similar quality.
      DanMann
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #333: Nov 04, 2017 04:20:04 pm
      Totally disagree - players get sent off.

      He was over-reaching desperately trying to make up for a bad first touch. It happens - especially late on in games.


      I believe the record states that it was Moses at fault for Henderson's red card.  ;)
      Scotia
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #334: Nov 04, 2017 04:34:15 pm
      I believe the record states that it was Moses at fault for Henderson's red card.  ;)

      Lol - touch was really shameful :)
      bmck
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #335: Nov 04, 2017 07:54:45 pm
      We have a new captain fantastic !   Led us to a 4-1 win.  Well in Migs.   Everyone in here must be made up :)
      Magillionare
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #336: Nov 04, 2017 08:09:56 pm
      We have a new captain fantastic !   Led us to a 4-1 win.  Well in Migs.   Everyone in here must be made up :)

      Courtois and Kompany are in for a shock on Monday when Migs is named new captain and number 1 of Belgium
      Scottbot
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #337: Nov 05, 2017 08:30:12 am
      Can't remember who it was but someone suggested having a look at Henderson at CB. I actually think that's a decent idea. He has got some good attributes to play there.
      LFCSTEVE1984
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #338: Nov 05, 2017 08:38:23 am
      Can't remember who it was but someone suggested having a look at Henderson at CB. I actually think that's a decent idea. He has got some good attributes to play there.

      Nar don't think he tackles enough, or puts his body on the line enough. Don't think he wins that many headers either.

      Plus he'd only have Mignolet to pass back to  :f_tongueincheek:
      alex1995
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #339: Nov 05, 2017 09:09:04 am
      Did not miss him a bit yesterday... It says a lot about him.

      It's not that I don;t like him, in fact,  I think he could be a very good player playing like Lampard, but at DM/no.6 spot (like Klopp calls it), he is very average and when you're average, you cannot be captain.

      I don't mind that he's not a vocal leader but at least he should lead by example. He does not.
      HScRed1
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #340: Nov 05, 2017 10:05:07 am
      Nar don't think he tackles enough, or puts his body on the line enough. Don't think he wins that many headers either.

      Plus he'd only have Mignolet to pass back to  :f_tongueincheek:

      I agree He is pretty poor aerially a prerequisite for a CB.
      Harrisimo
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #341: Nov 07, 2017 09:54:37 pm
      Can't remember who it was but someone suggested having a look at Henderson at CB. I actually think that's a decent idea. He has got some good attributes to play there.

      I made that call. Few weeks ago as it happens. I think he is a good midfield player but he does lack a little bit of imagination. I don't doubt his character, he's been thru a lot here and come thru as captain. He gives everything, it's just that he doesn't take the game by the scruff often enough. He can obviously be very impressive but his game is just a touch to predictable. That and the fact that I saw others make the move back into the back 4, notably Emlyn Hughes, Phil Thompson and others.

      I said in my original post that I thought Bob and Joe might of seen him as a center back, he can play, tackle, strong, not short of pace, decent in the air, can organise. I would give it some serious consideration. May be he has been sounded out....may be.
      racerx34
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #342: Nov 08, 2017 02:05:56 am
      Can't remember who it was but someone suggested having a look at Henderson at CB. I actually think that's a decent idea. He has got some good attributes to play there.

      Eventually this season, with everyone fit, it'll come down to him or Can in the deeper midfield role.
      I'd argue we could probably play Can in CB if it came down to it, and would nearly try it now if 4-2-3-1
      hasn't given us the answer we needed to being more solid.

      bad boy bubby
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #343: Nov 08, 2017 09:07:37 am
      I agree He is pretty poor aerially a prerequisite for a CB.

      I wouldn't be sure that being "Poor aerially" is a prerequisite for a Centre Half mate. 😊

      Joking aside, I get what you meant but...

      "Poor aerially"? Is he really? Hmm...

      Henderson (according to the offal) has won 70.6% of all his aerial duels.

      Klavan and Gomez (the armchair aide's alternative to Lovren) - 55.2% & 50%, respectively. [Emre Can - only 47.1% btw]

      Strangely enough Lovren scores 71.8% and, as you would expect, Matip scores highest with a whopping 84.4%.

      Just for some perspective; Virgil van Dijk  yeah... that Virgil van Dijk scores 67.4%. 😕

      As ever; people's perceptions of Jordan tend to cloud their judgement. Thankfully a lot of what folk say out loud, in the hope it's right, can be checked. 👍
      « Last Edit: Nov 08, 2017 09:29:17 am by bad boy bubby »
      LondonRed83
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #344: Nov 08, 2017 09:29:42 am
      Surely it’s clear to see how much Henderson divides opinion. We don’t have the same argument about anyone in the team and for a Captain that says it all.

      He’s an ok squad player, but he should be upgraded ASAP.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #345: Nov 08, 2017 10:36:41 am
      Surely it’s clear to see how much Henderson divides opinion.
      And that is good and healthy, from a forum perspective.

      Here's where I am at: I, genuinely, believe Jürgen picks, his teams, on merit. Jürgen picks Hendo because he sees him as his best option, there on merit. I also believe that Jürgen will drop him if needs be.

      If I didn't believe that then, take my word for it; I would be angry at Jürgen and vocal as f**k about it but...

      Here's the rub for me: there are many on here who are vocal as f**k in professing their "love"/"trust" for Jürgen who clearly don't believe he can be trusted to pick, his best team, on merit. Otherwise they wouldn't be squealing like stuck pigs every time Jordan gets picked.

      Weird that - unless... 🐑🐑🐑 🤔
      « Last Edit: Nov 08, 2017 11:07:35 am by bad boy bubby »
      HScRed1
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #346: Nov 08, 2017 01:57:48 pm
      I wouldn't be sure that being "Poor aerially" is a prerequisite for a Centre Half mate. 😊

      Joking aside, I get what you meant but...

      "Poor aerially"? Is he really? Hmm...

      Henderson (according to the offal) has won 70.6% of all his aerial duels.

      Klavan and Gomez (the armchair aide's alternative to Lovren) - 55.2% & 50%, respectively. [Emre Can - only 47.1% btw]

      Strangely enough Lovren scores 71.8% and, as you would expect, Matip scores highest with a whopping 84.4%.

      Just for some perspective; Virgil van Dijk  yeah... that Virgil van Dijk scores 67.4%. 😕

      As ever; people's perceptions of Jordan tend to cloud their judgement. Thankfully a lot of what folk say out loud, in the hope it's right, can be checked. 👍

      Stats and damn lies come to mind.
      Makes you wonder what Klopp sees in VVD. :)

      If Hendo was so good aerially he might chip in with the odd headed goal or even help out defensively?

      I think comparing Hendo in midfield competing against relatively smaller midfielders to what CB's have to cope with is not exactly a like for like measure.

      FL Red
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #347: Nov 08, 2017 02:30:31 pm
      Surely it’s clear to see how much Henderson divides opinion. We don’t have the same argument about anyone in the team and for a Captain that says it all.

      He’s an ok squad player, but he should be upgraded ASAP.

      I'd wager to say that Can, Gini and Milner also divide opinion a good deal...and maybe even Moreno (who I'm still cautiously optimistic about but  I feel like he's going to let us down at some point).
      Scotia
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #348: Nov 08, 2017 02:38:35 pm
      I'd wager to say that Can, Gini and Milner.......and maybe even Moreno

      Hell yes, nah, ish and oh yes......
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #349: Nov 08, 2017 05:06:08 pm
      Makes you wonder what Klopp sees in VVD.
      The same thing he sees in Henderson probably. 😉

      Just to be clear, it was YOU who said aerial ability was a "prerequisite" NOT me. 😂

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