Trending Topics

      Next match: Tranmere v LFC [Friendly] Thu 11th Jul @ 7:30 pm
      Prenton Park

      Today is the 17th of June and on this date LFC's match record is P0 W0 D0 L0

      Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????

      Read 3480 times
      0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
      5timesacharm
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 4,507 posts | 948 
      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #50: Oct 28, 2017 02:43:24 am
      What Klopp should do is read the following and heed its words because it's an excellent article outlining how many of our problems could be alievated by a defensive midfielder, and how many of them aren't just down to personnel, but are structural in nature.

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/10/27/liverpools-problems-forward-centre-back-need-holding-midfielder/
      Danzel
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 1,069 posts | 963 
      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #51: Oct 28, 2017 04:28:39 am
      What Klopp should do is read the following and heed its words because it's an excellent article outlining how many of our problems could be alievated by a defensive midfielder, and how many of them aren't just down to personnel, but are structural in nature.

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/10/27/liverpools-problems-forward-centre-back-need-holding-midfielder/

      Oh that guy is so full of sh*t, unbelievable  :lmao:!

      Perfect example of what I said earlier, taking snapshots at certain moments and saying where which player should be and pundits / journalists who don't have a clue.

      Spurs' first goal

      Matip does step up to follow Lovren (first thing where he's wrong), watch the phase of play again and watch his body position in that image. He moves up (he is at the same line as Lovren) and sets his body in a position for when it does come over, that he can start to run, just like Lovren does, who is playing Kane offside. The one who is too late to step up (watch the image, he's making a step forward) is Gomez. If Gomez hadn't switched off for a second, they play the offside trap perfectly.

      What happens after that is that players have to react to a new situation, a situation they should not be in. Our midfield three rotates, Henderson is now on the left, Can is our #6 in that situation. Look at Can's position in the first image and then when the ball goes in. He's the only one of the 3 midfielders who hasn't bothered moving YET AGAIN! I've been saying it so often right now, Can is a bloody liability who does f**k all. So it's not 'structural', it's one player switching off and one who can't be arsed running because he wants to be in Juventus next summer. Can and Eriksen are level when the ball leaves Trippier's foot, look at the difference between them when the ball goes in.

      Spurs' second goal

      This is where he fu**ed up. He cut the image in such a way where you can't see Henderson on it. Here's the image:





      Don't look at the clock, the time was still running during the replay, this is straight after Lloris' throw after Milner's cross.

      Look at the image he uses with the red circle where he says "Jordan Henderson should probably be here" and then look at the image I posted. Henderson was positioned slightly right of that red circle, in a position he cut out of the image. He was there because the ball was on the right with Milner, so if the attack breaks down, he can press. Henderson, as the image shows, was EXACTLY where he should be. The fact that Lovren makes the wrong decision there isn't his fault and has nothing to do with 'structural' problems or a 'holding midfielder'. In the later image, you see Henderson in front of Alli, again, where he should be.

      Spurs' third goal

      Henderson lets Kane run, Matip has to make up for this and heads it to the middle (hard to get it anywhere else). Look who is marking the zone where Alli is in, both Milner and Can are there. Both of them lose Alli and are late. I have no idea why he puts a circle around Moreno there other than trying to make it look like his at fault for the goal when he isn't (judging by his comments:" following Alberto Moreno, who is selected every week by Klopp because of his offensive qualities, ignoring the daft defensive decisions he regularly makes.") he doesn't really rate Moreno. Moreno and Chamberlain, our quickest players in that area, are positioned outside the box to set up the counter attack with their pace. That's a clear instruction by Klopp and again, nothing to do with a 'holding midfielder'.

      Leicester chance - Gray

      He does it again, he takes a snapshot at the exact moment when it looks like he's out of position. Here is the real image, a few seconds before that image:



      It was a long ball to Slimani, Henderson again (can you tell me where he should be then?) for me is in the right position, marking Okazaki. Again, it's not Henderson who is in the wrong position, it's Grujic who should be positioned lower. The snapshot he takes is right after Slimani plays the ball to Gray who then manages to dribble Henderson. It's only then when he is behind the play and that the gap opens up. That gap (that doesn't exist in the first situation) only opens up after Henderson gets dribbled (that can happen) and because Grujic reacts too late and doesn't shift to take over Henderson's position. That's the way our midfield three works and that's also a reason why calls for Grujic to start are premature, he's not ready.

      Leicester's first goal

      Again a situation that only exists because one of our defenders (Gomez again) switches off and plays them offside. Look at the defensive line, it's perfect, other than Gomez who again fucks up. This is the only goal that he mentions where you could make a case against Henderson and for a real #6, but it's a goal that shouldn't have happened in the first place had the players done what they should have done in the initial situation.

      Sevilla's goal

      Look at the midfield three (Wijnaldum, Henderson, Can) Henderson, as our most defensive, is again running to the right zone to avoid the cut back to the Sevilla player left of the penalty spot. It's Lovren (again an individual mistake, not structural or because of a holding midfielder) that fucks up with the clearance and Can (again him) who stops running.

      So Klopp shouldn't read that bullshit. Only one example of his has something to do with a holding midfielder. I'm not saying we can't or shouldn't upgrade on Henderson so we have a more natural #6 playing there, but I stand by my opinion, Henderson isn't the real issue in midfield. Individual errors and the players in front of him (Can) are the issue. Problems are down to personnel / decision making, not tactics, not a 'holding midfielder', not 'structural'.
      KopiteLuke
      • Forum Legend - Shankly
      • ******

      • 21,056 posts | 3784 
      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #52: Oct 28, 2017 04:34:13 am
      Just a few snippets I'd like to comment on.

      It's why I think he persisted with Lovren for so long. Purely in terms of (physical) ability, he is a more than a decent defender (plenty will disagree with me here probably). He is strong, good passing, not too slow, good vertical leap, ... It's the mental side of things that's letting him down. Strangely enough trying to improve someone mentally in terms of concentration, decision making, confidence, ... should be easier than teaching someone how to play football so to speak. Sadly though he apparently just is so weak mentally that he'll never make it at a top club.

      Apart from the pace, as I think he's deceptively slow for a man that moves his legs so fast, I totally agree. In the air he's actually quite dominant and it's why I am surprised he doesn't score more from set-pieces, and in amongst the joking with Mick about the 'future captain' I always thought if he could sort out his mentality then he would be a top player.

      Right now I think the progress that was made last season seems have deteriorated, how much is that down to the VvD links I'm not so sure but when starting with a player of a delicate mental state then perhaps it has had more of a bearing. If that is the case or not his mentality has proven that he just isn't up to it to be a reliable, long-term starter.


      That's one of the other problems we now have, both Gomez and Trent are incapable of playing the role Moreno plays on the other side of the pitch. They get beaten in 1 vs 1 situations too often. Moreno is really, really good in this type of situations and I know you don't particularly rate Clyne, both offensively and defensively, but he is really good in 1 vs 1 situations too and he reads situations in which to press much better. We have conceded quite a few goals coming from our right side because of their failures and indecisiveness.

      True, I don't rate Clyne, most especially in attack. In 1v1 situations though I would be a fool to suggest that Gomez or Trent are currently at his level, now I do think that level has fallen in the past year but still he is a very capable 1v1 defender. My biggest issues on his defending side have always been his ability to compete for far post headers and block crosses in to the box but if we want our absolute best defender (not best full-back) then Clyne would have to be the choice at the moment.

      I often see people blaming Klopp for not seeing obvious flaws in our current squad and not trying to rectify them. In my opinion it's the complete opposite, he has, with the limited funds at his disposal, always targetted players for problem areas, since his first window here.

      Both Van Dijk and Keita were targets for two of the biggest problem positions we currently have: CB and the #8 position. He clearly knew we had / were going to have issues, he wanted to bring them in to solve the problems, he convinced them to come and the management failed to land them. Not having alternatives lined up is something you can "blame" him for, but even then, if by now it's not clear that we need a very specific type of player for most positions in our squad, it never will be.

      Before that, bar Lovren, none of the CB's were able to play a high line. He brought in Matip and Klavan (Klavan is very hit and miss, not every transfer works out unfortunately). Mignolet can't play behind a high line, he brought in Karius who has been crucified for a few poor games as a young lad in a new league, resulting in Klopp having to take him out of the spotlight.

      Last season we struggled without Mane because of a lack of pace, he brought in both Salah and Chamberlain to add pace to the team.

      Every time he has seen a problem, he has tried to or has brought someone in to help solve it. I've said it before, it's a slow process. We now have, bar Mignolet, a starting eleven that is fit to play the game Klopp wants to play. Now it's time to upgrade on this starting eleven (with the likes of Keita and Van Dijk) so we actually get to have players on the bench who can come in and do the job that is expected of them. Our current bench might seem strong in terms of 'names', but it isn't in terms of players for his system, yet.

      This is why I don't understand how anyone can be looking to change manager. There was an interesting piece in the Echo yesterday yesterday that touched on this:

      http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpool-boss-jurgen-klopp-fsg-13823287

      This being the most interesting quote in the piece in my opinion:

      “I don’t think I am the problem. It is about relationships. We have to do things better. It is not that I don’t know how it should work."

      Everyone will read their own interpretation of things but to me the whole thing read like a step forward had been made behind the scenes. A realisation that once Jürgen attracts these bigger names that more is done to secure them, sure that could be 'hope' over expectations and only January and beyond will truly show us that I suppose.

      Brian78
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 14,635 posts | 1118 
      • A Liverbird upon my chest
      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #53: Oct 28, 2017 09:20:20 am
      In Dublin to sort someone out is a term used for kicking the sh*te out of someone or knock a bit of sense into them.

      So im all for Carra sorting the defence out!!
      trebor12
      • Forum Ian Callaghan
      • ****

      • 969 posts | 63 
      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #54: Oct 28, 2017 09:39:57 am
      This really is a pointless thread. Why do we need to ask if someone if they can come in and sort out this defence. To me if this happened then it asks the question is Klopp and his team up to the job. FFS they're even saying on talkshite that LFC should ask big Sam to come in and sort it out, I mean what's that all about.
      In other situations if someone is not doing their job properly they get reprimanded or have disaplinery action against them. In football they get dropped, plain and simple, that's why we have a squad. So there are players in our team who are simply out of form and not playing well. It's down to Klopp and his team to sort this out. If Klopp needs to replace some of his team then yes no problem. Wether it's formations, tactics or systems that's all down to the manager  and his team to get it sorted. Klopp is all about this gegen press and winning the ball high up the pitch to make it easier to get into scoring positions...I get it but with the crop of players playing at the moment it is leaving us exposed. Klopp is the manager and him and his team of players and staff are paid to get this sorted. Im not going to name names (we should all know who they are by now) but if he sticks with certain players and they keep making the same mistakes is he just going to sub them off all the time. So let's stop talking about people coming in to help out with the defence because it's not going to happen.
      For me if things don't change and we don't address the situation between now and the end of January then for the first time I will have to question if Klopp and his staff are the right people in charge.
      stuey
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 33,416 posts | 3208 
      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #55: Oct 28, 2017 09:56:09 am
      In Dublin to sort someone out is a term used for kicking the sh*te out of someone or knock a bit of sense into them.

      So im all for Carra sorting the defence out!!

      Same as over here Brian and they do need a kick up the arse
      billythered
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 6,280 posts | 1908 
      • From Doubters to Believers
      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #56: Oct 28, 2017 01:28:59 pm
      Should Jürgen ask Carra.....f**k me ...Really ?
       Carra was a decent defender played with plenty of passion and most definitely for that wee bird dancing on his nipple, however he wasn't the best we've ever had, if we were to go down that cringeworthy route then why not go ask Hansen, Hyppia, Thompson, Smith etc....

      FF's if Jürgen & his coaches can't fix it no one else can be expected to, i think we're missing the whole f**king point....its so f***in simple.....WE NEED BETTER PLAYERS....!!!

      Yes you could argue that Klopp has to shoulder some blame for not bringing in alternatives , can't get away from that but he isnt to blame for the school boy errors seen from so called professional athlete's, errors that have cost us points and league positions,

      I'm sick of saying this, there's too many players here that are not at a level we need to perform consistently in a system of a Klopp side...but he's working on that very issue...but it does take time....lots of it...and money....lots of it...and some ....having a average net spend of under £24m isnt gonna cut it is it ?

      So while there are many who blame Klopp for lack of playing staff, there are plenty more who will point their fingers at the money men and their miserly offerings in the transfer market......

      .....Anyhoo ..it is what it is and stooping low to ask advise from ex defender's is f***in embarrassing and something you'd expect to see in amateur football and certainly not in the EPL and especially not at Anfield!!

      YNWA 
      Mickred
      • Forum Kevin Keegan
      • ***
      • Started Topic

      • 325 posts | 42 
      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #57: Nov 01, 2017 01:26:07 pm
      This really is a pointless thread. Why do we need to ask if someone if they can come in and sort out this defence. To me if this happened then it asks the question is Klopp and his team up to the job. FFS they're even saying on talkshite that LFC should ask big Sam to come in and sort it out, I mean what's that all about.
      In other situations if someone is not doing their job properly they get reprimanded or have disaplinery action against them. In football they get dropped, plain and simple, that's why we have a squad. So there are players in our team who are simply out of form and not playing well. It's down to Klopp and his team to sort this out. If Klopp needs to replace some of his team then yes no problem. Wether it's formations, tactics or systems that's all down to the manager  and his team to get it sorted. Klopp is all about this gegen press and winning the ball high up the pitch to make it easier to get into scoring positions...I get it but with the crop of players playing at the moment it is leaving us exposed. Klopp is the manager and him and his team of players and staff are paid to get this sorted. Im not going to name names (we should all know who they are by now) but if he sticks with certain players and they keep making the same mistakes is he just going to sub them off all the time. So let's stop talking about people coming in to help out with the defence because it's not going to happen.
      For me if things don't change and we don't address the situation between now and the end of January then for the first time I will have to question if Klopp and his staff are the right people in charge.


      Hardly pointless, it has prompted quite a good discussion!!
      MIRO
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 11,954 posts | 2508 
      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #58: Nov 02, 2017 05:05:39 pm
      Mignolet is sh*te.

      Moreno is sh*te.

      Klavan is sh*te.

      Lovren is sh*te.

      Regardless of the system we employ, these players are not good enough, FACHT!

      Our defence is a shambles and we are slowly becoming the laughing stock of the Premier League.

      Couple that with the fact that we have a midfield trio with the collective creativity of an amoeba then that just adds to the farce that this season is slowly becoming.

      It's all well and good wanting to play rock and roll football but it's pointless when the base of that group are f**king around with tambourines and xylophones.

      There are too many pussies in this team.

      Lallana can't come back soon enough for me, we are missing him so much it is unreal.

      On the point made about Carra, as good an organiser as he was, he would only be polishing turds.

      Post of the Week .

      I'd stick Henderson in there as well .

      A couple of thru balls ... a season does not make.
      MIRO
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 11,954 posts | 2508 
      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #59: Nov 02, 2017 05:08:23 pm
      Read an interview from the Telegraph a couple of weeks back with Carra .

      The main thing he said is that no one is talking to each other on the pitch.

      Referred to the spine and the leaders in the 08-09 team.    You never know what you have till its gone... do you ?
      Shabs
      • Forum Legend - Shankly
      • ******

      • 22,879 posts | 2739 
      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #60: Nov 02, 2017 10:33:36 pm
      Klopp must have taken Carra's advice the last 2 games..

      Ain't leaked a goal..  :roll:

      Go Carra ;D
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 19,631 posts | 5018 
      • YNWA
      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #61: Nov 02, 2017 10:39:46 pm
      Read an interview from the Telegraph a couple of weeks back with Carra .

      The main thing he said is that no one is talking to each other on the pitch.

      Referred to the spine and the leaders in the 08-09 team.    You never know what you have till its gone... do you ?

      Hyypia said that on BT Sport last night. 'The team lacks leaders'.
      JD
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 34,600 posts | 4165 
      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #62: Nov 03, 2017 12:22:31 am
      In Dublin to sort someone out is a term used for kicking the sh*te out of someone or knock a bit of sense into them.

      Means the same in Liverpool.  He's knocking on a bit now is Carra so not sure he could anyway.

      But then it also means giving them a wedge of dosh - Carra could probably help there.
      Baconbutty
      • Forum John Aldridge
      • **

      • 110 posts | 22 
      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #63: Nov 03, 2017 01:25:45 pm
      The defence led by Jamie Carragher conceded the least amount of goals in the premier league for three seasons running. Anyone comparing our defence now to the one we had back then needs to give their head a wobble.
      Boston not la
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 2,164 posts | 456 
      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #64: Nov 03, 2017 03:07:04 pm
      The defence led by Jamie Carragher conceded the least amount of goals in the premier league for three seasons running. Anyone comparing our defence now to the one we had back then needs to give their head a wobble.
       

      Yeah i'm pretty sure that hasn't come up at any point in this thread,and no Carra should not be asked to help coach the defence.
      Baconbutty
      • Forum John Aldridge
      • **

      • 110 posts | 22 
      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #65: Nov 03, 2017 07:34:32 pm
       

      Yeah i'm pretty sure that hasn't come up at any point in this thread,and no Carra should not be asked to help coach the defence.

      “But I remember only too well how shambolic his partnership with Skrtel was and at times Agger too.

      The same type of goals we concede now we conceded every week with him and Agger or Skrtel at the back. The likes of Droga, Zamora, Kevin Davies bullied them constantly.”

      “If Carragher was playing in our back line now alongside either Agger or Skrtel then I'm convinced we would still be conceding from set pieces/direct balls into the box every week.”
      redkenny
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 24,905 posts | 1045 
      • 96 - Always Remembered
      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #66: Nov 03, 2017 08:39:22 pm
      Carragher would end up fighting with either a defender, a coach or Klopp himself. The reason for this is because he's intensely competitive and would want to have a game himself. I'd imagine that's why he's gone into media work. He's still got the enthusiasm for football but approaching the big 40 doesn't let your body keep that enthusiasm.

      Would never work and can't see it ever happening.
      JackSparrow
      • Forum Erik Meijer
      • *

      • 36 posts |
      Re: Should Jürgen ask Carra to sort the defence out????
      Reply #67: Nov 09, 2017 09:43:07 am
      We don't really have a defence much.

      Junk;

      Lovren
      Flanagan
      Klaven

      Injured;

      Clyne

      Undecided;

      Gomez

      Okay;

      TAA
      Matip

      We need to consider having some players, perhaps Can at CB.

      Quick Reply