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      The academy: How well is it really doing?

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      Brian78
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      The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Oct 30, 2017 09:28:53 am
      Sheyi Ojo, Ovie Ejaria and Rhian Brewster. The 3 Liverpool players to win u30 and u17 world cups this year with England.

      Rhian arriving from Chelsea when he was 15. Ovie from Arsenal at 16 and Sheyi from MK dons at 14. All signed in.

      Our first team only has 1 player in it who came through the academy from scratch in Trent Alexander Arnold. With the all too rare appearance of Ben Woodburn the only other academy player here from the start near the 1st team.

      Is our academy actually doing as well as percieved? When you see the numbers involved in those world cup squads from Chelsea Everton Spurs. The players churned out by West ham Southampton  and the amount of players given game time at Arsenal and up to recently man utd are we producing enough?

      And more so why are we not producing enough of our own from 7 and 8 rather then signing them in at 15 or 16?
      Robby The Z
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #1: Oct 30, 2017 04:36:58 pm
      Sheyi Ojo, Ovie Ejaria and Rhian Brewster. The 3 Liverpool players to win u30 and u17 world cups this year with England.

      Rhian arriving from Chelsea when he was 15. Ovie from Arsenal at 16 and Sheyi from MK dons at 14. All signed in.

      Our first team only has 1 player in it who came through the academy from scratch in Trent Alexander Arnold. With the all too rare appearance of Ben Woodburn the only other academy player here from the start near the 1st team.

      Is our academy actually doing as well as percieved? When you see the numbers involved in those world cup squads from Chelsea Everton Spurs. The players churned out by West ham Southampton  and the amount of players given game time at Arsenal and up to recently man utd are we producing enough?

      And more so why are we not producing enough of our own from 7 and 8 rather then signing them in at 15 or 16?

      It's a fair point about the recruitment, and of course we can look back to the days of McManaman, Owen and Fowler as a fairly recent example of what you would hope for from your youth setup. That doesn't make it OK if we're underachieving, but I'd too far removed from the youth teams at the club to really have a gauge on what goes on there. I've studied his over here quite extensively (and it's effed up over here, believe me).

      Saying that, if we compare our leading 15-20 players in appearances, to the top 15-20 of City, United, Spurs, Chelsea and Arsenal, for players who were with the club before age 18, or 16, or 14 or whatever it is, I'm guessing it would be about the same.

      Maybe we are on course to change that over the next few years. I think it would be a huge boost if we can do this, but culturally, it seems hard to do at a top club. How patient would people be with Ben Woodburn of Rhian Brewster getting a regular game. We've seen this a little bit even with TAA and Joe Gomez, right?

      Saturday began a stretch of 16 matches in 64 days for us (even with no League Cup). If we were ever going to utilize squad depth its now.
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #2: Oct 30, 2017 06:22:16 pm
      Depends on how you look at it. If it's just to provide the majority of new players for our first team then it's probably a failure. If it's to find a few gems like TAA or Woodburn and cover costs by developing and selling on the likes of Suso, Pacheco, Wisdom etc.  then it's probably a success.
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #3: Oct 30, 2017 06:24:40 pm
      Sheyi Ojo, Ovie Ejaria and Rhian Brewster. The 3 Liverpool players to win u30 and u17 world cups this year with England.

      Rhian arriving from Chelsea when he was 15. Ovie from Arsenal at 16 and Sheyi from MK dons at 14. All signed in.

      Our first team only has 1 player in it who came through the academy from scratch in Trent Alexander Arnold. With the all too rare appearance of Ben Woodburn the only other academy player here from the start near the 1st team.

      Is our academy actually doing as well as percieved? When you see the numbers involved in those world cup squads from Chelsea Everton Spurs. The players churned out by West ham Southampton  and the amount of players given game time at Arsenal and up to recently man utd are we producing enough?

      And more so why are we not producing enough of our own from 7 and 8 rather then signing them in at 15 or 16?

      A fair few of the city and chelsea yoingsters have been bought in from other clubs
      Magillionare
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #4: Oct 30, 2017 09:44:29 pm
      Our academy looks like it's coming out of some dark days. In the last 10 years we've produced nothing. You could argue Sterling, but I think he was an import from QPR or somewhere like that.

      Days are looking brighter with TAA, Woodburn and Brewster in particular looking good along with Ejaria and Ojo potentially being good players.... That being said I've been excited about plenty before and it's shown no return but this crop seems different to the last few crops. Hopefully we see them get some first team games because the only other player we've produced in the last decade is doing pretty well at AC Milan now because he didn't get a shot with us.
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #5: Oct 31, 2017 02:10:44 am
      The Academy is only as good and productive as the first team allows it to be.

      Managers don't give kids a chance to develop in the first team as much as they used to down to the demand of instant success nowadays. Unfortunately, even the more experienced players are failing. And rather than give a few of the kids a go, managers persist with those same failing experienced players (see Danny Ward this year as a prime example). Kids are lucky if they're given ten games a season in today's Premier League. They might get a run out in the domestic cups but, if like us this year, they go out in the first round then they're waiting from September till January before they get another taste.

      The last manager who truly gave the kids a go was Dalglish. He had Flanagan, Robinson and Spearing all in the first team for a sustained run and none of the three looked out of place. Kenny was then sacked, Robinson disappeared completely from the first team set-up, Flanagan only got a run out when injuries forced Rodgers' hand and Spearing was demoted to play second fiddle to the likes of Lucas, Allen, Sahin. Now I know this forum won't agree with any of that and they'll bang on about how sh*t those three players were but under Dalglish (the only manager to win a trophy for the club in the past decade) they were all looking as if they could cement a place in the side for the long-term and that's because they had a manager who trusted them and gave them a sustained run in the side, rather than one or two games every couple of months.

      Since then we've had plenty of prospects get the odd run out. All coming into the first team with a lot of praise from the youth and/or reserve team levels. But it then breaks down because it is just the odd run out and in some cases it'll be the odd run out of position. And on top of that it'll be the odd run out in games with fringe players who are being told they're not good enough for the League or European games and another handful of kids. There's never a run out with the first team, where the better players can provide the youngsters with that extra bit of quality needed.

      Another thing I've been very critical of is the fact that the kids no longer train with the first team, they're off in Kirkby until they get the call up. There's bound to be nerves because they don't know the players they're joining up with and in most cases they're going to be starstruck. If they're training with the first team players every day, that disappears. Suddenly it's not Liverpool's saviour Sadio Mane that they're up against but just one of the lads. If, and when, Melwood finally closes it's doors and we move all our training facilities up to Kirkby then maybe that problem won't exist as much.

      So any promising youngster is only going to succeed at a club that allows them to succeed. The odd chance here and there isn't giving them the chances they need to "make it". It's giving them nothing really because even if they perform well against Wycombe or Port Vale or whoever in the Cups, they know come the following weekend when the League is our main focus again that they'll be nowhere near the 18 selected.

      But the fact we've had a number of kids given a game or two shows that the Academy is producing the talented players but the first team managers are failing the Academy by not giving them game time when they should be. Players don't develop by staying in the reserves, they stagnate. And they then get to the age of 21 where they haven't played enough football are considered too old to be given the chance. They need to be in the Premier League sides on a regular basis from a much earlier age. It doesn't mean 38 starts, it means at least half the season though, they are involved somehow - either starting or coming off the bench.

      However modern football won't allow that. So for all the hype we give our youngsters, none of them will "make it" at Anfield until a young kid is allowed to play and develop in the first team. Alexander-Arnold looks like he could get the opportunity although he's very quickly fell behind Gomez (a natural centre half) in the pecking order and, probably, wouldn't even be on the bench if Clyne was fit. Woodburn looks like he could get the opportunity yet he's played more for Wales this season than he has us. Harry Wilson has been tearing it up at youth level for a number of years yet he has one Liverpool appearance to his name.

      I know a lot of kids get loaned out nowadays, much more than they used to, which at the very least gives the players a chance to experience, competitive, first team football. But how many of our kids have gone out on loan and returned to stake a place in the starting XI? Very few because the managers don't give them that game time upon return. And that is what it boils down to, game time with the first team at Liverpool Football Club.

      But that means football as a culture has to change. Us as fans have to accept youngsters are going to have the odd dodgy game but stick with them rather than writing them off as soon as they have their first below par game. Owners have to stick with managers who are looking to build something by developing their youngsters rather than sacking a manager every couple of years. And managers need to have a pair of balls and stick with the youngsters they think can be good enough in a few years time rather than hooking them out the side as soon as one result goes tits up.

      I don't see any of that happening though and in five years time when Brewster scores his first goal for the newly promoted Divison Four side Luton, we'll be talking about how he never fulfilled his potential here. And how he's another one who never was good enough. And how he's found his level. But the owners, not just the current yanks but whoever we may get in the future, care solely about the money. So if they can snatch a kid from Bury for a couple of quid then sell him on for a couple of million, they're more than happy. So they're not interested in developing kids and the cycle of us not producing any quality first team players of our own will continue.

      So back to my original sentence, the Academy is only as good and productive as the first team allows it to be. And in today's football, there's not many teams who can afford the luxury of trying to develop a youngster in the first team.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #6: Oct 31, 2017 03:54:44 am
      Our academy looks like it's coming out of some dark days. In the last 10 years we've produced nothing. You could argue Sterling, but I think he was an import from QPR or somewhere like that.

      Days are looking brighter with TAA, Woodburn and Brewster in particular looking good along with Ejaria and Ojo potentially being good players.... That being said I've been excited about plenty before and it's shown no return but this crop seems different to the last few crops. Hopefully we see them get some first team games because the only other player we've produced in the last decade is doing pretty well at AC Milan now because he didn't get a shot with us.

      Out of the names you mention only really TAA, Woodburn & Ojo who we've produced.

      Brewster came from Chelsea, Ejaria from Arsenal even Suso who you mention originally came from Cadiz. To say we've produced these players is a bit of a lie, polished them up maybe, but we didn't produce them.
      Magillionare
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #7: Oct 31, 2017 07:27:37 am
      Out of the names you mention only really TAA, Woodburn & Ojo who we've produced.

      Brewster came from Chelsea, Ejaria from Arsenal even Suso who you mention originally came from Cadiz. To say we've produced these players is a bit of a lie, polished them up maybe, but we didn't produce them.


      Ah fair enough, sort of proves my point even more though right?
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #8: Oct 31, 2017 12:34:45 pm
      Ah fair enough, sort of proves my point even more though right?

      Have to agree with DLS with this.

      The Academy is only as good and productive as the first team allows it to be.

      So back to my original sentence, the Academy is only as good and productive as the first team allows it to be. And in today's football, there's not many teams who can afford the luxury of trying to develop a youngster in the first team.



      bad boy bubby
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #9: Oct 31, 2017 03:18:59 pm
      Sadly it appears that the kids are only "developed" to be sold on: keeping the 'academy' ticking over til the next big earner, (IMO, obviously).

      I mean, be honest; was Sterling ever going to be kept when the Benjamins started raining? Nah. 😄
      Scotia
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #10: Oct 31, 2017 03:25:00 pm
      Sadly it appears that the kids are only "developed" to be sold on: keeping the 'academy' ticking over til the next big earner, (IMO, obviously).

      I mean, be honest; was Sterling ever going to be kept when the Benjamins started raining? Nah. 😄

      Spot on.

      Less Academy, more Nursery.......horticultu rally speaking  :mad:
      Robby The Z
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #11: Oct 31, 2017 04:03:53 pm
      The Academy is only as good and productive as the first team allows it to be.

      Managers don't give kids a chance to develop in the first team as much as they used to down to the demand of instant success nowadays. Unfortunately, even the more experienced players are failing. And rather than give a few of the kids a go, managers persist with those same failing experienced players (see Danny Ward this year as a prime example). Kids are lucky if they're given ten games a season in today's Premier League. They might get a run out in the domestic cups but, if like us this year, they go out in the first round then they're waiting from September till January before they get another taste.

      The last manager who truly gave the kids a go was Dalglish. He had Flanagan, Robinson and Spearing all in the first team for a sustained run and none of the three looked out of place. Kenny was then sacked, Robinson disappeared completely from the first team set-up, Flanagan only got a run out when injuries forced Rodgers' hand and Spearing was demoted to play second fiddle to the likes of Lucas, Allen, Sahin. Now I know this forum won't agree with any of that and they'll bang on about how sh*t those three players were but under Dalglish (the only manager to win a trophy for the club in the past decade) they were all looking as if they could cement a place in the side for the long-term and that's because they had a manager who trusted them and gave them a sustained run in the side, rather than one or two games every couple of months.

      Since then we've had plenty of prospects get the odd run out. All coming into the first team with a lot of praise from the youth and/or reserve team levels. But it then breaks down because it is just the odd run out and in some cases it'll be the odd run out of position. And on top of that it'll be the odd run out in games with fringe players who are being told they're not good enough for the League or European games and another handful of kids. There's never a run out with the first team, where the better players can provide the youngsters with that extra bit of quality needed.

      Another thing I've been very critical of is the fact that the kids no longer train with the first team, they're off in Kirkby until they get the call up. There's bound to be nerves because they don't know the players they're joining up with and in most cases they're going to be starstruck. If they're training with the first team players every day, that disappears. Suddenly it's not Liverpool's saviour Sadio Mane that they're up against but just one of the lads. If, and when, Melwood finally closes it's doors and we move all our training facilities up to Kirkby then maybe that problem won't exist as much.

      So any promising youngster is only going to succeed at a club that allows them to succeed. The odd chance here and there isn't giving them the chances they need to "make it". It's giving them nothing really because even if they perform well against Wycombe or Port Vale or whoever in the Cups, they know come the following weekend when the League is our main focus again that they'll be nowhere near the 18 selected.

      But the fact we've had a number of kids given a game or two shows that the Academy is producing the talented players but the first team managers are failing the Academy by not giving them game time when they should be. Players don't develop by staying in the reserves, they stagnate. And they then get to the age of 21 where they haven't played enough football are considered too old to be given the chance. They need to be in the Premier League sides on a regular basis from a much earlier age. It doesn't mean 38 starts, it means at least half the season though, they are involved somehow - either starting or coming off the bench.

      However modern football won't allow that. So for all the hype we give our youngsters, none of them will "make it" at Anfield until a young kid is allowed to play and develop in the first team. Alexander-Arnold looks like he could get the opportunity although he's very quickly fell behind Gomez (a natural centre half) in the pecking order and, probably, wouldn't even be on the bench if Clyne was fit. Woodburn looks like he could get the opportunity yet he's played more for Wales this season than he has us. Harry Wilson has been tearing it up at youth level for a number of years yet he has one Liverpool appearance to his name.

      I know a lot of kids get loaned out nowadays, much more than they used to, which at the very least gives the players a chance to experience, competitive, first team football. But how many of our kids have gone out on loan and returned to stake a place in the starting XI? Very few because the managers don't give them that game time upon return. And that is what it boils down to, game time with the first team at Liverpool Football Club.

      But that means football as a culture has to change. Us as fans have to accept youngsters are going to have the odd dodgy game but stick with them rather than writing them off as soon as they have their first below par game. Owners have to stick with managers who are looking to build something by developing their youngsters rather than sacking a manager every couple of years. And managers need to have a pair of balls and stick with the youngsters they think can be good enough in a few years time rather than hooking them out the side as soon as one result goes tits up.

      I don't see any of that happening though and in five years time when Brewster scores his first goal for the newly promoted Divison Four side Luton, we'll be talking about how he never fulfilled his potential here. And how he's another one who never was good enough. And how he's found his level. But the owners, not just the current yanks but whoever we may get in the future, care solely about the money. So if they can snatch a kid from Bury for a couple of quid then sell him on for a couple of million, they're more than happy. So they're not interested in developing kids and the cycle of us not producing any quality first team players of our own will continue.

      So back to my original sentence, the Academy is only as good and productive as the first team allows it to be. And in today's football, there's not many teams who can afford the luxury of trying to develop a youngster in the first team.

      Hope you're wrong about Brewster, Woodburn, etc. but if you are they would be breaking a trend. Wicked spot on post.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #12: Oct 31, 2017 05:15:44 pm
      The last manager who truly gave the kids a go was Dalglish. He had Flanagan, Robinson and Spearing all in the first team for a sustained run and none of the three looked out of place. Kenny was then sacked, Robinson disappeared completely from the first team set-up, Flanagan only got a run out when injuries forced Rodgers' hand and Spearing was demoted to play second fiddle to the likes of Lucas, Allen, Sahin. Now I know this forum won't agree with any of that and they'll bang on about how sh*t those three players were but under Dalglish (the only manager to win a trophy for the club in the past decade) they were all looking as if they could cement a place in the side for the long-term and that's because they had a manager who trusted them and gave them a sustained run in the side, rather than one or two games every couple of months.

      Flanagan looked decent under Rodgers for a period but injuries have since set him back. He just doesn't look the same player.

      I disagree about Robinson and Spearing though. Jay was OK for a short period of time but in bigger games - like the FA Cup final - he was soon found wanting.

      And it's not like he hasn't played football regularly ever since, he's captained Bolton for a while but he's then gone from the Championship to League One. Do you seriously believe he'd be a good enough Premier League player for Liverpool FC if only we had had more patience? I find it quite hard to believe.

      We also happened to have our worst league finish in some five decades when using those kids. There's a reason why they were played more often, and that was that our squad was sh*te and stretched by two cup runs.
      « Last Edit: Oct 31, 2017 05:25:49 pm by Diego LFC »
      ruthcity
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #13: Oct 31, 2017 05:43:18 pm
      "We want proven players like VVD, not unproven young things."

      Which is why kids need to be setting the league alight once they come on like a young Rooney or otherwise risk losing game time.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #14: Oct 31, 2017 06:46:10 pm
      "We want proven players like VVD, not unproven young things."

      Would be handy if we actually got transfers for proven players sorted first.

      Scottbot
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #15: Oct 31, 2017 07:22:39 pm
      I think our Academy has done as well as most of the other top sides in recent years. You have to accept that the game has changed somewhat in the last 20 years and as DLS points out, the kids simply don't getting the space, patience and first team opportunities to stake a claim in odeon day footy. It's mostly league cup games alongside other youngsters and squad players and the odd 15 minute run out in
      The EPL if they're lucky. Also, I wouldn't discount a player like Sterling just because he came in from QPR as a 15 year old, the club still had to spot him, recruit him Andy then move him on to first team standard. im certain he would still be doing a good job at LFC rit now had we some more ambitious owners.

      Of the current crop you have to like the chances for TAA and Woodburn and of course young Brewster looks like an exciting prospect but time will tell, it is very likely that none of them will fulfill their potential but I reckon we have a solid player in TAA and potentially a very good player in Woodburn. But Brewster is the one we could with most and if he could turn out to be anything like Rashford I'm sure we'd all be very very happy.
      JD
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #16: Nov 21, 2017 06:23:54 pm
      U23's beat Everton 4-0 on Saturday (Everton are 2nd) and the U19's beat Sevilla 4-0 today in their own ground so, I think we can say they're doing alright?
      skamp
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      Re: The academy: How well is it really doing?
      Reply #17: Nov 23, 2017 03:48:04 pm
      "You can't win anything with kids"......

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