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      Q. LFC Man of the Match v Spurs?

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      Total Members Voted: 83

      Voting closed: Oct 04, 2023 07:37:58 pm

      Tottenham Hotspur 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion

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      brezipool
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      Re: Tottenham Hotspur 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #943: Oct 03, 2023 12:55:47 pm
      We’ll make amends at Brighton - we owe them payback after last season

      Could be another cracking game. Good attacking team.

      We will be right up for it as well.
      rossyred
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      Re: Tottenham Hotspur 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #944: Oct 03, 2023 04:10:16 pm
      Could be another cracking game. Good attacking team.

      We will be right up for it as well.

      Brighton have got a tougher game away on Thursday also and they need some.points out of it really or they could struggle to qualify
      lfc across the water
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      Re: Tottenham Hotspur 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #945: Oct 04, 2023 12:01:30 am
      Quote from tytusgroan
      Should just scrap var altogether. We were well better off without it

      No we were not. The human error on the pitch is a reminder of why we're not better off without it. At least they've owned up and admitted responsibility. Five years ago, we wouldn't even get a whisper of accepting responsibility, let alone a statement of accountability.

      JĂźrgen can't go on a tv rant about officials. Not worth it. He's on a suspended ban for the rest of the season remember.

      Quote from gazred
      The VAR was incompetent. Everyone is focusing on the offside decision but VAR also showed the ref the most biased and incriminating still photo they could find for Jones red card.

      The ref was also terrible, the decision to give Jota his first yellow card was especially awful but there were multiple other bad decisions.

      We got some terrible decisions at Spurs a few years ago and it's happened again.

      Before, it was the refs that were biased, now it's the photos. 😅

      Any ref anywhere on earth, is going to issue a straight red card when he sees where the impact is from a challenge like that, regardless what motion he sees it in. It's endangering the safety of an opponent, so unfortunately he has to go. And we would be baying for it to be given if it was the other way round. No issue there.

      Whatever about the first yellow given, Jota shouldn't be making tackles like that when he risks another. He got the first yellow after a number of previous challenges. Didn't learn obviously.

      Why oh why was Endo not put on earlier? If we're going to boast about signing a new DM, he's not much use on a bench while the midfield is being overrun. After Diogo had to walk for his rash lunge, I thought the game was up. 9 v 11 usually turns out that way. So to keep going to almost the bitter end is a credit to everyone out there who gave everything they had to try and get us a point.

      The long unbeaten record is gone but other results have softened the blow imo, so we forget about it and move on.

      Quote from gazred
      It's not difficult to focus on 2 issues. JĂźrgen and his players can spend their time preparing for the games on Thursday and at Brighton.
      Other people at the club will be dealing with the VAR issue. Obviously, JĂźrgen's press conferences are likely to be dominated by VAR questions but I don't think it will significantly affect the preparations for the next game.

      The more we find out about this incident, it's just getting worse. On Saturday evening almost every Liverpool fan would have presumed this incident was just incompetence, a few days later more of us are starting to become very concerned about corruption because it's becoming a very suspicious situation.
      We need a full investigation of this incident and some of the issues around it, PGMOL, the trips to Abu Dhabi, etc.

      I'm starting to think that there is a possibility that the game will be replayed.

      The game will not be replayed, no league game is. By this time next week, it will be all forgotten about by most people, because there will be something else to talk about.

      Players need help, managers need help, officials need help. Why do they need help? Because they make mistakes. This error was initially created because the linesman put his flag up and got it wrong, as they've done since the year dot. The pictures showed it wasn't a hard decision for him to get right, but he still got it wrong. So if anything, he should share the blame for everything that happened, as he would be without VAR. Then it was compounded by another mistake made upstairs, and then everyone jumped on the anti VAR bandwagon. It's mistakes, happens all the time at every level of the game. It's not corruption.

      The level of comment from all involved has been unwise and unhelpful, and fuels bitterness and hatred all the way from the top of the football pyramid to the bottom of the ladder. It's that kind of vitriol that sees officials having to take time out because of physical threats to them and/or their families. For what?

      I include the club in that, for putting out a statement, which only brought about more questions. Explore what other options? There aren't any. What escalation and resolution? Telling everyone that we should wait for the conclusions of the review, then goes on to say the decisions undermined sporting integrity, such as what exactly? It's a live investigation, and as with any investigation, there should not be any official comment until it's complete and the full facts are known. Where was all this stuff after the Karius and Kane incidents in front of the Kop? Where was it after Bobby's perfectly good goal against Arsenal was ruled out for a fictitious offside, that cost us the two points that lost us the league? Where was it when the decisive penalty in the 1985 cup final, was given for a challenge outside the box? Etc etc etc. Or is it just ok to issue official statements when a VAR is involved?

      Every player, every manager and every fan at every level of the game treats an official as an opponent, when he's just trying to do his job to the best of his ability, to get decisions right. The VAR in charge of our game will be devastated by getting it wrong, because he realises it's an automatic ban as a result, which he is now serving. He'll also be devastated at what has been said about him since, and he'll wish he could go back and give the goal, then nobody would have cared where he was beforehand. It's not right and it's not fair, and grown men really should know better. We're all gutted by what happened, but the game is done, and we just have to get on with the rest of the season now.
      With Hope In My Heart
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      Re: Tottenham Hotspur 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #946: Oct 04, 2023 12:18:47 am



      The game will not be replayed, no league game is. By this time next week, it will be all forgotten about by most people, because there will be something else to talk about.

      Players need help, managers need help, officials need help. Why do they need help? Because they make mistakes. This error was initially created because the linesman put his flag up and got it wrong, as they've done since the year dot. The pictures showed it wasn't a hard decision for him to get right, but he still got it wrong. So if anything, he should share the blame for everything that happened, as he would be without VAR. Then it was compounded by another mistake made upstairs, and then everyone jumped on the anti VAR bandwagon. It's mistakes, happens all the time at every level of the game. It's not corruption.

      The level of comment from all involved has been unwise and unhelpful, and fuels bitterness and hatred all the way from the top of the football pyramid to the bottom of the ladder. It's that kind of vitriol that sees officials having to take time out because of physical threats to them and/or their families. For what?

      I include the club in that, for putting out a statement, which only brought about more questions. Explore what other options? There aren't any. What escalation and resolution? Telling everyone that we should wait for the conclusions of the review, then goes on to say the decisions undermined sporting integrity, such as what exactly? It's a live investigation, and as with any investigation, there should not be any official comment until it's complete and the full facts are known. Where was all this stuff after the Karius and Kane incidents in front of the Kop? Where was it after Bobby's perfectly good goal against Arsenal was ruled out for a fictitious offside, that cost us the two points that lost us the league? Where was it when the decisive penalty in the 1985 cup final, was given for a challenge outside the box? Etc etc etc. Or is it just ok to issue official statements when a VAR is involved?

      Every player, every manager and every fan at every level of the game treats an official as an opponent, when he's just trying to do his job to the best of his ability, to get decisions right. The VAR in charge of our game will be devastated by getting it wrong, because he realises it's an automatic ban as a result, which he is now serving. He'll also be devastated at what has been said about him since, and he'll wish he could go back and give the goal, then nobody would have cared where he was beforehand. It's not right and it's not fair, and grown men really should know better. We're all gutted by what happened, but the game is done, and we just have to get on with the rest of the season now.




      Think the level of comment could well prove to be helpful.

      The VAR system should now be reviewed and protocols put into place to ensure that cock ups like this one are not repeated. The ref could be made to tell the VAR officials what they are checking for. "A goal has been disallowed by a potential off side. Can you confirm that number seven was offsided?"

      Rugby Union doesn't seem to have these issues, there's a clear dialogue between ref and VAR officials, the crowd & TV audience can hear the exchange and the ref then announces the result. A process like that should negate the disgraceful shenanigans that occurred during this match. It's not as if there were other games needing any adjudication taking place at the time. The audio release just shows how amateurish the current VAR set up is in football and hopefully as a result of the level of comment new systems put into place.
      Harrisimo
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      Re: Tottenham Hotspur 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #947: Oct 04, 2023 10:29:02 am
      " It's not right..and grown men should really know better"...slightly patronising. Suggests that everything is perfect. Shows lack of basic understanding of the game I would suggest.

      From the invention of the game fierce rivalry, tribal, sometimes outright hatred is evident. The idea that a ref is above all that is just not true. 95% or even more the refs have 100% integrity but saying or claiming that there's never a chink in their perceived impartiality is naive.

      Refs do from time to time do give biased decisions.Human nature, their not perfect and to take that view is not some childish tantrum.
      Longy-Shops
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      Re: Tottenham Hotspur 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #948: Oct 04, 2023 11:15:40 am
      No we were not. The human error on the pitch is a reminder of why we're not better off without it. At least they've owned up and admitted responsibility. Five years ago, we wouldn't even get a whisper of accepting responsibility, let alone a statement of accountability.

      JĂźrgen can't go on a tv rant about officials. Not worth it. He's on a suspended ban for the rest of the season remember.

      Before, it was the refs that were biased, now it's the photos. 😅

      Any ref anywhere on earth, is going to issue a straight red card when he sees where the impact is from a challenge like that, regardless what motion he sees it in. It's endangering the safety of an opponent, so unfortunately he has to go. And we would be baying for it to be given if it was the other way round. No issue there.

      Whatever about the first yellow given, Jota shouldn't be making tackles like that when he risks another. He got the first yellow after a number of previous challenges. Didn't learn obviously.

      Why oh why was Endo not put on earlier? If we're going to boast about signing a new DM, he's not much use on a bench while the midfield is being overrun. After Diogo had to walk for his rash lunge, I thought the game was up. 9 v 11 usually turns out that way. So to keep going to almost the bitter end is a credit to everyone out there who gave everything they had to try and get us a point.

      The long unbeaten record is gone but other results have softened the blow imo, so we forget about it and move on.

      The game will not be replayed, no league game is. By this time next week, it will be all forgotten about by most people, because there will be something else to talk about.

      Players need help, managers need help, officials need help. Why do they need help? Because they make mistakes. This error was initially created because the linesman put his flag up and got it wrong, as they've done since the year dot. The pictures showed it wasn't a hard decision for him to get right, but he still got it wrong. So if anything, he should share the blame for everything that happened, as he would be without VAR. Then it was compounded by another mistake made upstairs, and then everyone jumped on the anti VAR bandwagon. It's mistakes, happens all the time at every level of the game. It's not corruption.

      The level of comment from all involved has been unwise and unhelpful, and fuels bitterness and hatred all the way from the top of the football pyramid to the bottom of the ladder. It's that kind of vitriol that sees officials having to take time out because of physical threats to them and/or their families. For what?

      I include the club in that, for putting out a statement, which only brought about more questions. Explore what other options? There aren't any. What escalation and resolution? Telling everyone that we should wait for the conclusions of the review, then goes on to say the decisions undermined sporting integrity, such as what exactly? It's a live investigation, and as with any investigation, there should not be any official comment until it's complete and the full facts are known. Where was all this stuff after the Karius and Kane incidents in front of the Kop? Where was it after Bobby's perfectly good goal against Arsenal was ruled out for a fictitious offside, that cost us the two points that lost us the league? Where was it when the decisive penalty in the 1985 cup final, was given for a challenge outside the box? Etc etc etc. Or is it just ok to issue official statements when a VAR is involved?

      Every player, every manager and every fan at every level of the game treats an official as an opponent, when he's just trying to do his job to the best of his ability, to get decisions right. The VAR in charge of our game will be devastated by getting it wrong, because he realises it's an automatic ban as a result, which he is now serving. He'll also be devastated at what has been said about him since, and he'll wish he could go back and give the goal, then nobody would have cared where he was beforehand. It's not right and it's not fair, and grown men really should know better. We're all gutted by what happened, but the game is done, and we just have to get on with the rest of the season now.
      As you know I am not a big VAR fan. As I have said before, it is well intentioned, but flawed. In the days when I went to the match, there would always be incidents where the wrong call was made, but we trusted that the judgement had been made in good faith...if we gained from it great..if we suffered by it...then obviously not. There was no choice but to move on, those incidents were quickly forgotten, whereas now these calls are pontificated over for days/weeks. There was a phase: These things balance out over a season....because that's what did happen...in fact still does.
      I totally agree with a few of your points, especially about the cryptic, mildly menacing club statement which for me served no purpose.
      One thing you might want to consider: The linesman put his flag up, we agree this was a monumental error. The technology giving us the proof, although anyone, and everyone could see in real time it wasn't even that close. I suspect (though we'll never know for sure) that the linesman thought Diaz was onside throughout the whole move ( which explains him not flagging immediately). I think he put his flag up BECAUSE he knew VAR would check it, just in case he got it wrong...essentially referring the decision to VAR, falsely believing they couldn't get it wrong.
      My point being, if there was no option for VAR to review it he wouldn't have raised his flag. VAR has become a sort of get out of jail card.
      As an aside: I saw a Brentford player almost cut in half by an out of control goalkeeper a few days ago...not even close to the ball, a blatant pen......nothing given.
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: Tottenham Hotspur 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #949: Oct 04, 2023 11:31:48 am
      As you know I am not a big VAR fan. As I have said before, it is well intentioned, but flawed. In the days when I went to the match, there would always be incidents where the wrong call was made, but we trusted that the judgement had been made in good faith...if we gained from it great..if we suffered by it...then obviously not. There was no choice but to move on, those incidents were quickly forgotten, whereas now these calls are pontificated over for days/weeks. There was a phase: These things balance out over a season....because that's what did happen...in fact still does.
      I totally agree with a few of your points, especially about the cryptic, mildly menacing club statement which for me served no purpose.
      One thing you might want to consider: The linesman put his flag up, we agree this was a monumental error. The technology giving us the proof, although anyone, and everyone could see in real time it wasn't even that close. I suspect (though we'll never know for sure) that the linesman thought Diaz was onside throughout the whole move ( which explains him not flagging immediately). I think he put his flag up BECAUSE he knew VAR would check it, just in case he got it wrong...essentially referring the decision to VAR, falsely believing they couldn't get it wrong.
      My point being, if there was no option for VAR to review it he wouldn't have raised his flag. VAR has become a sort of get out of jail card.
      As an aside: I saw a Brentford player almost cut in half by an out of control goalkeeper a few days ago...not even close to the ball, a blatant pen......nothing given.

      The linesman puts his flag up because he thinks he is offside and at normal pace it’s a close call
      Longy-Shops
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      Re: Tottenham Hotspur 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #950: Oct 04, 2023 11:50:55 am
      The linesman puts his flag up because he thinks he is offside and at normal pace it’s a close call
      That may well be the case...My proposition is he thought it was onside, but flagged as a kind of insurance knowing VAR would be tasked with confirming or denying. In other words...the fact that VAR exist absolves them of a potential mistake....which we now know, it clearly doesn't.
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: Tottenham Hotspur 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #951: Oct 04, 2023 11:52:37 am
      That may well be the case...My proposition is he thought it was onside, but flagged as a kind of insurance knowing VAR would be tasked with confirming or denying. In other words...the fact that VAR exist absolves them of a potential mistake....which we now know, it clearly doesn't.

      If he thought it was onside then he keeps the flag down - the goal will still be checked to ensure

      It’s why they don’t flag until the ball goes in the net or the move is over
      Harrisimo
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      Re: Tottenham Hotspur 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #952: Oct 04, 2023 12:05:49 pm
      What the Linesman does is irrelevant to VAR. VAR makes or should make the decision using the technology. The 'on field' decision has no bearing on any VAR decision regarding offside.

      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: Tottenham Hotspur 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #953: Oct 04, 2023 12:08:38 pm
      What the Linesman does is irrelevant to VAR. VAR makes or should make the decision using the technology. The 'on field' decision has no bearing on any VAR decision regarding offside.

      Hence why every goal is checked regardless of if it’s flagged as offside or not
      racerx34
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      Re: Tottenham Hotspur 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #954: Oct 04, 2023 12:14:34 pm
      Longy-Shops
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      Re: Tottenham Hotspur 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #955: Oct 04, 2023 12:15:37 pm
      Hence why every goal is checked regardless of if it’s flagged as offside or not
      It begs the question; why have a linesman at all?
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: Tottenham Hotspur 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #956: Oct 04, 2023 12:16:27 pm
      It begs the question; why have a linesman at all?

      Offsides when goals aren’t score , fouls etc etc
      KeepTheFaith
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      Re: Tottenham Hotspur 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #957: Oct 04, 2023 01:40:15 pm
      Klopp has asked for a replay of the match

      I don’t think that can be done
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: Tottenham Hotspur 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #958: Oct 04, 2023 01:41:11 pm
      Klopp has asked for a replay of the match

      I don’t think that can be done

      It can’t and whilst I don’t agree with him you can see why he is saying it and he is speaking as a fan etc

      But then he also said that it won’t happen

      KeepTheFaith
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      Re: Tottenham Hotspur 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #959: Oct 04, 2023 01:42:16 pm
      It can’t and whilst I don’t agree with him you can see why he is saying it and he is speaking as a fan etc

      But then he also said that it won’t happen



      Yeah I don’t agree either, just has to accept we had a spineless coward in the var room who doesn’t think things through to make things right for his error
      waltonl4
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      Re: Tottenham Hotspur 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #960: Oct 04, 2023 01:44:10 pm
      JĂźrgen wants a replay but does not think it will happen, we all know what will happen they will bury their heads in the sand hoping it will go away and it probably will .We should show our league position with an asterix against this game and finish the league showing 37 games.
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: Tottenham Hotspur 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #961: Oct 04, 2023 01:49:57 pm
      Yeah I don’t agree either, just has to accept we had a spineless coward in the var room who doesn’t think things through to make things right for his error

      Things do need to change

      They need to sort out the process and protocols to ensure it doesn’t happen again to anyone else
      Harrisimo
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      Re: Tottenham Hotspur 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #962: Oct 04, 2023 01:54:30 pm
      Klopp has asked for a replay of the match

      I don’t think that can be done

      Although I suspect treachery was afoot, I'm not sure a replay is the right way to go. Yes this debacle was bad but other screw ups will happen and once the ball starts rolling others will scream 'replay' the minute they think they've been screwed over.

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      Re: Tottenham Hotspur 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #963: Oct 04, 2023 02:15:09 pm
      Although I suspect treachery was afoot, I'm not sure a replay is the right way to go. Yes this debacle was bad but other screw ups will happen and once the ball starts rolling others will scream 'replay' the minute they think they've been screwed over.



      Big this isn’t just about an off side goal.
      It’s also the phantom foul for jottas first yellow, which would then have prevented the red.
      And the contentious red for Jones, with the suggestive still !
      FL Red
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      Re: Tottenham Hotspur 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #964: Oct 04, 2023 02:19:56 pm
      JĂźrgen wants a replay but does not think it will happen, we all know what will happen they will bury their heads in the sand hoping it will go away and it probably will .We should show our league position with an asterix against this game and finish the league showing 37 games.

      To be fair, I think his quote is that if something like this were to happen again it should result in a replay. I didn't see that he's explicitly calling for this game to be replayed.
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: Tottenham Hotspur 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #965: Oct 04, 2023 02:23:23 pm
      To be fair, I think his quote is that if something like this were to happen again it should result in a replay. I didn't see that he's explicitly calling for this game to be replayed.

      The Premier Game Match Officials Ltd released the audio conversation between officials and the VAR after a request from Liverpool, but Klopp said that had made little difference to their thinking.

      “The audio didn’t change it at all. It is an obvious mistake,” he said. “I think there should be solutions for that. I think the outcome should be a replay.

      “The argument against that would be it opens the gates. It is unprecedented, it has not happened before.

      “I’m used to wrong and difficult decisions, but something like this never happened and so that is why I think a replay is the right thing to do.”

      On whether the club had asked – or would ask – the Premier League for a replay formally, Klopp added: “At this stage we are still going through the information we have.”

      Klopp said it would have been much better to have corrected the mistake the moment it happened and he wants a protocol put in place to avoid similar problems recurring.

      “If you have this situation first time, you try to understand, and try to find a solution, but that doesn’t solve the problem. How can we sort not just for the future, but this situation?” he added.

      “If that would happen again, I would say replay. Or much, much better than a replay – sort it in that moment. Common sense.

      “If a replay happens or not, it’s just my opinion.”

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