Tottenham Hotspur 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion

Jürgen wants a replay but does not think it will happen, we all know what will happen they will bury their heads in the sand hoping it will go away and it probably will .We should show our league position with an asterix against this game and finish the league showing 37 games.

Apart from the rules. The problem arises that even if Liverpool's goal had correctly been given, that in itself can't guarantee that Tottenham couldn't have gone on to win. If there was true sportsmanship..I guess Spurs should allow their game at Anfield to start with them one goal down....which isn't going to happen.

Klopp has asked for a replay of the match

I don’t think that can be done

It was a loaded question which he finished by saying
it would open that gate and everyone would ask for one. I think it's unprecedented.
Ref has the opportunity to bring both coaches together and say sorry I made a mistake.
We should discuss it normally without emotions.
What made this day really difficult for us was all the other decisions.
Curtis Jones red card. Ref saw for the first 3 seconds a frozen picture and then a slow motion.

He then goes on to say it would be better if common sense saw the goal stand at the time.

“Much better than a replay is to sort it out in the moment with common sense. That would be a big improvement."

Remains to be seen whether it has created a siege mentality and we kick on and actually use it as motivation. Has created a bit of a us and them scenario. And it should SPUR us on...ahem..

FFS the commentator is saying TIMikas again. He nearly made me kill myself a fortnight ago.

Developing feelings for Grevenberch, early.

Well played Gravenberch. He’s been really sharp.

Love how well he carries the ball forward.

Gerrin

Ha ha ha how am I in the wrong thread

Well in Jota

Ha ha ha how am I in the wrong thread

Same 

Same 

😄

No we were not. The human error on the pitch is a reminder of why we're not better off without it. At least they've owned up and admitted responsibility. Five years ago, we wouldn't even get a whisper of accepting responsibility, let alone a statement of accountability.

Jürgen can't go on a tv rant about officials. Not worth it. He's on a suspended ban for the rest of the season remember.

Before, it was the refs that were biased, now it's the photos. 😅

Any ref anywhere on earth, is going to issue a straight red card when he sees where the impact is from a challenge like that, regardless what motion he sees it in. It's endangering the safety of an opponent, so unfortunately he has to go. And we would be baying for it to be given if it was the other way round. No issue there.

Whatever about the first yellow given, Jota shouldn't be making tackles like that when he risks another. He got the first yellow after a number of previous challenges. Didn't learn obviously.

Why oh why was Endo not put on earlier? If we're going to boast about signing a new DM, he's not much use on a bench while the midfield is being overrun. After Diogo had to walk for his rash lunge, I thought the game was up. 9 v 11 usually turns out that way. So to keep going to almost the bitter end is a credit to everyone out there who gave everything they had to try and get us a point.

The long unbeaten record is gone but other results have softened the blow imo, so we forget about it and move on.

The game will not be replayed, no league game is. By this time next week, it will be all forgotten about by most people, because there will be something else to talk about.

Players need help, managers need help, officials need help. Why do they need help? Because they make mistakes. This error was initially created because the linesman put his flag up and got it wrong, as they've done since the year dot. The pictures showed it wasn't a hard decision for him to get right, but he still got it wrong. So if anything, he should share the blame for everything that happened, as he would be without VAR. Then it was compounded by another mistake made upstairs, and then everyone jumped on the anti VAR bandwagon. It's mistakes, happens all the time at every level of the game. It's not corruption.

The level of comment from all involved has been unwise and unhelpful, and fuels bitterness and hatred all the way from the top of the football pyramid to the bottom of the ladder. It's that kind of vitriol that sees officials having to take time out because of physical threats to them and/or their families. For what?

I include the club in that, for putting out a statement, which only brought about more questions. Explore what other options? There aren't any. What escalation and resolution? Telling everyone that we should wait for the conclusions of the review, then goes on to say the decisions undermined sporting integrity, such as what exactly? It's a live investigation, and as with any investigation, there should not be any official comment until it's complete and the full facts are known. Where was all this stuff after the Karius and Kane incidents in front of the Kop? Where was it after Bobby's perfectly good goal against Arsenal was ruled out for a fictitious offside, that cost us the two points that lost us the league? Where was it when the decisive penalty in the 1985 cup final, was given for a challenge outside the box? Etc etc etc. Or is it just ok to issue official statements when a VAR is involved?

Every player, every manager and every fan at every level of the game treats an official as an opponent, when he's just trying to do his job to the best of his ability, to get decisions right. The VAR in charge of our game will be devastated by getting it wrong, because he realises it's an automatic ban as a result, which he is now serving. He'll also be devastated at what has been said about him since, and he'll wish he could go back and give the goal, then nobody would have cared where he was beforehand. It's not right and it's not fair, and grown men really should know better. We're all gutted by what happened, but the game is done, and we just have to get on with the rest of the season now.

I think this is a good post, I don't agree with all of it but you do highlight some important issues.

I think that all human beings are obviously fallible and will make mistakes in their professional and private lives. I'm a supporter of VAR because it reduces the number of refereeing errors in football, but nothing will eliminate all errors. There are obviously also many incidents in football (and in sport/life generally) that are open to interpretation and opinion. Offside decisions should not be uncertain most of the time, a player is either offside or onside within the rules in force at that time. Sometimes if a player in an offside position is affecting the goalkeeper's decision making or might be blocking his view there may be some uncertainty.
Fouls, yellow and red cards will almost always be open to debate and depend on the opinions of the referees. I think VAR is good in this area because it improves the chances of officials making the "correct" decision but there will always be debate about what the "correct" decision should be.

However, I also think it is important to question and examine how VAR is working so that it can improve. There is a difficult balance between highlighting errors by officials and then developing this into abuse of the officials involved.

The Jones 'red card appeal' on the actual challenge, was no surprise that we lost the appeal. But the issue here was the way the Ref decided. First it was a very close decision and that then comes under the 'clear and obvious' error rule.

Hooper gave yellow and that should've been accepted. But VAR went against the ' clear & obvious' error rule and then Hooper was sent to the monitor but apparently wasn't shown the full sequence. Seeing just the end result of Jones tackle.

It's a mess, there no consistency regarding when Refs are sent to the monitor. No judgement regarding what's a clear & obvious error and what's not.  No set procedure regarding how much of the incident they're actually shown. It just causes confusion, anger and very often they make the wrong decision.

The Jones 'red card appeal' on the actual challenge, was no surprise that we lost the appeal. But the issue here was the way the Ref decided. First it was a very close decision and that then comes under the 'clear and obvious' error rule.

Hooper gave yellow and that should've been accepted. But VAR went against the ' clear & obvious' error rule and then Hooper was sent to the monitor but apparently wasn't shown the full sequence. Seeing just the end result of Jones tackle.

It's a mess, there no consistency regarding when Refs are sent to the monitor. No judgement regarding what's a clear & obvious error and what's not.  No set procedure regarding how much of the incident they're actually shown. It just causes confusion, anger and very often they make the wrong decision.

It is a mess.
However, if that was the other way round we'd all be screaming for a red card. I have already posted that it was wrong to have the end still frame on the monitor....but it was the image that prompted the call to review the incident.
We all know the "Clear and obvious" label is vacuous and meaningless....as you say it's a mess.

Consistency would be nice. When you see Cody take a boot to the chest that leaves marks and it doesn't result in a red and then Curtis accidentally spikes someone (after getting the ball) and he's gone, it doesn't make any sense. If you are going to be wrong or bad...just do it consistently so that the players can adjust.

bit concerned the black shirted bald headed mafia will be looking to do us over again at every opportunity as it appears to have been since the e Tierney incident. Is it too much to ask for Refs not to F**k  up so much even with the assistance of modern tech.

The Jones 'red card appeal' on the actual challenge, was no surprise that we lost the appeal. But the issue here was the way the Ref decided. First it was a very close decision and that then comes under the 'clear and obvious' error rule.

Hooper gave yellow and that should've been accepted. But VAR went against the ' clear & obvious' error rule and then Hooper was sent to the monitor but apparently wasn't shown the full sequence. Seeing just the end result of Jones tackle.

It's a mess, there no consistency regarding when Refs are sent to the monitor. No judgement regarding what's a clear & obvious error and what's not.  No set procedure regarding how much of the incident they're actually shown. It just causes confusion, anger and very often they make the wrong decision.

Hooper was shown the incident in slow mo and then at full pace from two angles but what they seem to do whenever they send the ref to the monitor is show them the still of the impact which I’m guessing is what they think is the clear error but imo it create bias to what the var thinks - they should be shown the incident from the start


Let’s be honest though if that’s a spurs player on Mo we would be screaming red

" It's not right..and grown men should really know better"...slightly patronising. Suggests that everything is perfect. Shows lack of basic understanding of the game I would suggest.

From the invention of the game fierce rivalry, tribal, sometimes outright hatred is evident. The idea that a ref is above all that is just not true. 95% or even more the refs have 100% integrity but saying or claiming that there's never a chink in their perceived impartiality is naive.

It's not about refs decisions, it's the reaction to them, from everyone involved. Seeing pundits and ex players tear into refs in general and VAR in particular was hypocritical. Most of them spent their entire careers treating refs as opponents, trying to con cheat and dive week in week out. Now they act like they're some sort of moral authority on the lotg, when they're talking about the subject they know nothing about.

We know that when people see that reaction, it eventually shows up at grass roots level, where vulnerable refs and officials have no protection available and no VAR to rescue them. It's the kind of response that sees Mike Dean at 50 years old, have to take time out to protect his family after receiving threats for giving a red card. It's the kind of response that sees Taylor and his family attacked in airports, and it's the kind of response that sees Anders Frisk retire in mid season. That's just the professionals, let alone the amateurs. It's wrong.

Darren England isn't the best ref in the league, but he knows how to say "Check Complete". Unfortunately last weekend, he accidentally said it too early, and we've all seen the consequences.

As you know I am not a big VAR fan. As I have said before, it is well intentioned, but flawed. In the days when I went to the match, there would always be incidents where the wrong call was made, but we trusted that the judgement had been made in good faith...if we gained from it great..if we suffered by it...then obviously not. There was no choice but to move on, those incidents were quickly forgotten, whereas now these calls are pontificated over for days/weeks. There was a phase: These things balance out over a season....because that's what did happen...in fact still does.
I totally agree with a few of your points, especially about the cryptic, mildly menacing club statement which for me served no purpose.
One thing you might want to consider: The linesman put his flag up, we agree this was a monumental error. The technology giving us the proof, although anyone, and everyone could see in real time it wasn't even that close. I suspect (though we'll never know for sure) that the linesman thought Diaz was onside throughout the whole move ( which explains him not flagging immediately). I think he put his flag up BECAUSE he knew VAR would check it, just in case he got it wrong...essentially referring the decision to VAR, falsely believing they couldn't get it wrong.
My point being, if there was no option for VAR to review it he wouldn't have raised his flag. VAR has become a sort of get out of jail card.

It's not a card, it's a safety net. The refs are instructed to ref games as if there's no VAR, and they all pride themselves on their correct decisions without needing outside assistance. Then it's available to them if needed in limited scenarios.

We didn't see refs as making decisions in good faith. People told them not to ref their teams matches. Howard Webb and Mike Riley are still reminded to this day, for going to the toilet and giving mancs penalties, regardless of justification. When a European ref did the right thing over there and sent a manc off years ago, one of their fans called 999 to complain about it, because he argued it was an "emergency". Now, despite being all UEFA match officials, despite their years of experience, and all the times they've given decisions our way, suddenly where Kavanagh, Tierney and Taylor are from is a problem, that's before they even turn up, let alone blow a whistle.

Telling me that wrong decisions balance themselves out, is no use to me. Even if it's true, decisions balancing themselves out in games where we're already 4-0 up with 5 minutes left and don't need it, is no consolation if the previous error is the difference between winning a trophy or not.

What happened at the weekend is not going to happen again. It will slow VAR decisions down further, and then you'll get Bawler from Brighton and Whiner from Wolverhampton crying that it's killing the game for him. It's not killing the game, it's seeing justice done, so regardless what kind of club you are or where you stand in the table, you only get the decisions you deserve. And if it takes 5 minutes to get to the right decision, that's fine, I have the patience and I'll sit there quietly and wait as long as it takes. I paid whatever I paid to watch this game, so give me the right decision and we can argue the toss later. We saw what happened last weekend when the wrong decision was given. That will never and should never be allowed to balance itself out.

I spent most of the 20 years before VAR arrived, thoroughly disgusted that we lost at the toilet every year, due to strong penalty appeals turned down and other unjust decisions against us. I could list them all off, but believe me I never ever ever want us to return to that rotten dump without VAR available, let alone anywhere else.

It's not about refs decisions, it's the reaction to them, from everyone involved. Seeing pundits and ex players tear into refs in general and VAR in particular was hypocritical. Most of them spent their entire careers treating refs as opponents, trying to con cheat and dive week in week out. Now they act like they're some sort of moral authority on the lotg, when they're talking about the subject they know nothing about.

We know that when people see that reaction, it eventually shows up at grass roots level, where vulnerable refs and officials have no protection available and no VAR to rescue them. It's the kind of response that sees Mike Dean at 50 years old, have to take time out to protect his family after receiving threats for giving a red card. It's the kind of response that sees Taylor and his family attacked in airports, and it's the kind of response that sees Anders Frisk retire in mid season. That's just the professionals, let alone the amateurs. It's wrong.

Darren England isn't the best ref in the league, but he knows how to say "Check Complete". Unfortunately last weekend, he accidentally said it too early, and we've all seen the consequences.

It's not a card, it's a safety net. The refs are instructed to ref games as if there's no VAR, and they all pride themselves on their correct decisions without needing outside assistance. Then it's available to them if needed in limited scenarios.

We didn't see refs as making decisions in good faith. People told them not to ref their teams matches. Howard Webb and Mike Riley are still reminded to this day, for going to the toilet and giving mancs penalties, regardless of justification. When a European ref did the right thing over there and sent a manc off years ago, one of their fans called 999 to complain about it, because he argued it was an "emergency". Now, despite being all UEFA match officials, despite their years of experience, and all the times they've given decisions our way, suddenly where Kavanagh, Tierney and Taylor are from is a problem, that's before they even turn up, let alone blow a whistle.

Telling me that wrong decisions balance themselves out, is no use to me. Even if it's true, decisions balancing themselves out in games where we're already 4-0 up with 5 minutes left and don't need it, is no consolation if the previous error is the difference between winning a trophy or not.

What happened at the weekend is not going to happen again. It will slow VAR decisions down further, and then you'll get Bawler from Brighton and Whiner from Wolverhampton crying that it's killing the game for him. It's not killing the game, it's seeing justice done, so regardless what kind of club you are or where you stand in the table, you only get the decisions you deserve. And if it takes 5 minutes to get to the right decision, that's fine, I have the patience and I'll sit there quietly and wait as long as it takes. I paid whatever I paid to watch this game, so give me the right decision and we can argue the toss later. We saw what happened last weekend when the wrong decision was given. That will never and should never be allowed to balance itself out.

I spent most of the 20 years before VAR arrived, thoroughly disgusted that we lost at the toilet every year, due to strong penalty appeals turned down and other unjust decisions against us. I could list them all off, but believe me I never ever ever want us to return to that rotten dump without VAR available, let alone anywhere else.

I presume you must sense that nobody is taking anything you say as valid....you are seemingly stuck in a bubble, with stubborn  defences no outside opinions can break through and enter.
You obviously feel passionate about  the issue, to defend it to the level that you do...but you need to step back and at the very least reappraise your stance, with as close to an open mind as you can muster...otherwise you are going down an isolated Alice in Wonderland world of self delusion.

I presume you must sense that nobody is taking anything you say as valid....you are seemingly stuck in a bubble, with stubborn  defences no outside opinions can break through and enter.
You obviously feel passionate about  the issue, to defend it to the level that you do...but you need to step back and at the very least reappraise your stance, with as close to an open mind as you can muster...otherwise you are going down an isolated Alice in Wonderland world of self delusion.

He’s been looking through the glass for years mate. You won’t change him.  It’s futile   

Will people please for the love of God stop engaging with this lunatic VAR loving idiot
.if it is always human error why bother with it until its fully automated. It is not doing what it promised to do scrap it

I presume you must sense that nobody is taking anything you say as valid....you are seemingly stuck in a bubble, with stubborn  defences no outside opinions can break through and enter.
You obviously feel passionate about  the issue, to defend it to the level that you do...but you need to step back and at the very least reappraise your stance, with as close to an open mind as you can muster...

As with most people, I don't have an open mind, and the stance will not be changed. It's just that I'm on the other side of the debate. It's like supporting a football club tbh. Once you pick a side, you can't change.

I never feel more vindicated with it, than when we get a decision by VAR that we wouldn't get otherwise. I would prefer if everyone else saw the light, but if they don't, so be it. I said before, I'm here to debate with those who want to debate, not to change their minds for them.

As with most people, I don't have an open mind, and the stance will not be changed. It's just that I'm on the other side of the debate. It's like supporting a football club tbh. Once you pick a side, you can't change.

You can change opinions quite easily, I'd say it's an essential part of being a human being. We take an initial view on something and then as new information comes in we refine and adjust our opinions.

We need to constantly evolve as individuals and as a society.