Carra: No title this year

Did people who wanted Houllier out in his 4th season not"support"  the club either? The issue is about the manager, therefore if I believe the manager is not going to  ead the club to a 19th title I am hardly going to be cheery about it.

It's clear as day you are the type that once your head is gone up a certain place it doesn't come down for a long long time. And I would bet strongly you were an advocate of Houllier getting a 5th season too, using the same playschool manner to criticise those who wanted him out.

F9T, maybe you should read what Carra said because he doesn't share your optimism.

Did people who wanted Houllier out in his 4th season not"support"  the club either? The issue is about the manager, therefore if I believe the manager is not going to  ead the club to a 19th title I am hardly going to be cheery about it.

It's clear as day you are the type that once your head is gone up a certain place it doesn't come down for a long long time. And I would bet strongly you were an advocate of Houllier getting a 5th season too, using the same playschool manner to criticise those who wanted him out.

Not everything can be blamed on the manager, we need to stand by him, of whom many believe is better than Houllier, it is not the manager, but the teams performance combined with the mentality of the manager. From what I tell, you may have a fan-like name, but they are not the words of a true fan at heart, no matter what the players say, anything is possible until it is mathematically impossible. It is still possible to win the league, until a point at which we cannot make up the needed amount of points in the game remaining.

F9T, maybe you should read what Carra said because he doesn't share your optimism.

And who here does not think that being a football fan needs optimism, the start of the season, you are optimistic your team can win. Pesemism is not how football works, otherwise we would all be turning against our club and our manager. In life, you can do anything, if you believe you can. (And I am aware that phrase will ignite alot of sarcasm.)

I agree totally, F9T, that not everything can be blamed on a manager. Most players nowadays are overrated Prima Donnas.   

But ultimately why does any club need a manager if it's just down to players?   Who buys the players, trains the players, motivates the players and picks the tactics for the team every week? The manager.

When we won in Europe he was a tactical genius according to certain fans and yet when the team are miserable it's the players that are the sole problem? That's sheer rubbish. I admire Benitez's record in Europe and have said it many times. But his record in the Prem, the one we want most as even Carra said, isn't good enough. Eddie and co.. seem incapable of criticising anything the manager does and point the finger at certain players. Yet these are players he bought, not Houllier rejects.
 
So when exactly do these "supporters" look at Benitez objectively and say what he is doing wrong?  The league table doesn't lie every year.

Eddie and co.. seem incapable of criticising anything the manager does and point the finger at certain players. 

They are pointing the finger at certain performances of the players, you cannot criticize the manager when one or two players perform poorly, everyone has a poor game don't they? There is nothing you can do to avoid poor performances from now. Rafa can be blamed if the whole team performs badly, or he makes a bad selection. And EVERY SINGLE Liverpool fan has been annoyed with Rafa and some mistakes he has made in his selection policy. YOU CANNOT SIT THERE AND SAY THAT PEOPLE NEVER CRITICIZE RAFA, BECAUSE WE ALL HAVE AT SOME POINT. But is criticism not part of human life, we all criticize something a family member does. So EVERY LFC FAN has criticized Rafa at some point, including EddieC and "co." I also find it extremely unfair when you say EddieC & co. rather than just saying several users or something. Try and not pick people out when you are on about a whole group.

For your information Poolgiants, I wanted Houllier out a year before he went. He wasn't making any progress, something I feel Rafa is, albeit not at the pace we'd like admittedly. And my previous comments weren't purely based on your opinions of Rafa, it's the fact that you don't seem to have anything good to say about anything to do with the club.

I think we can all tell that Rafa is making much more progress than Houllier (except Poolgiants.) Rafa is a couple of seasons back on Wenger, building a team ready to go for the title. Arsenal wanted to get rid of Wenger when he wasn't winning things, and now they could win a fair amount of trophies. We need to be patient, a couple of seasons and we will be at the top. We need consistency in our managers. You can't achieve anything if a manager is building a team and then you get rid of the manager.

Eddie, it's because I care about the club and it being top of the tree I can't stand people's excuses for our perpetual league failures. But I'm very glad to hear you wanted Houllier out in his 4th year. That at least says you don't believe in blind faith just because the person is manager of Liverpool. And I can see from your other posts you're a student of the game. But that's what frustrates me more with the "In Rafa we trust" brigade. I can fully understand many people wanting him to get a 5th season. But anyone who knows the game must surely have seen many OBVIOUS danger signs at this stage with Benitez. He has made a lot of mistakes in the Premiership so if someone said "Yeah, he should get another season but I'm very worried he's not the man" then I'd understand their opinion.

This mentality that our results in the league, not being top for more than a week in 4 seasons, isn't anything to do with Benitez himself and is all because of money and players form is rubbish. Benitez might very well deserve one last chance next season, but if he isn't going to get 100 million in the summer has he not shown he can't do it with our budget? So we must try someone new, because if we don't get a big money investment Benitez won't do any better in the leagye next year. Last year many people said we were one quality strier away from a real challenge. We bought a class striker who bangs in goals and yet we have not advanced to a title challenge so now people say we need one more quality striker.

F9T, no one disagrees Benitez has done much better than Houllier. But you're mistake is Houllier is not a yardstick; he was a failure in the end so his standards are not what you judge Benitez by. You judge any Pool manager by the bread and butter in the league and how close they are to winning it. And we are not close to winning it.

F9T, no one disagrees Benitez has done much better than Houllier. But you're mistake is Houllier is not a yardstick; he was a failure in the end so his standards are not what you judge Benitez by. You judge any Pool manager by the bread and butter in the league and how close they are to winning it. And we are not close to winning it.

I think we can give him some slack though seeing as he never misses a beat in Europe. And has lead us to two UCL finals in 3 years. Which is proof that he is the right man for a club of our heritage.

They are pointing the finger at certain performances of the players, you cannot criticize the manager when one or two players perform poorly, everyone has a poor game don't they? There is nothing you can do to avoid poor performances from now. Rafa can be blamed if the whole team performs badly, or he makes a bad selection. And EVERY SINGLE Liverpool fan has been annoyed with Rafa and some mistakes he has made in his selection policy. YOU CANNOT SIT THERE AND SAY THAT PEOPLE NEVER CRITICIZE RAFA, BECAUSE WE ALL HAVE AT SOME POINT. But is criticism not part of human life, we all criticize something a family member does. So EVERY LFC FAN has criticized Rafa at some point, including EddieC and "co." I also find it extremely unfair when you say EddieC & co. rather than just saying several users or something. Try and not pick people out when you are on about a whole group.

        Spot on mate ! Everybody has criticised Rafa at some time, but what I have a problem with is people who think it's Rafa's fault and no one else.As Poolgiants is using Carra's quotes,isn't it intresting that he missed out the part where Carra blames the players underperforming,as the reason for our current position. I suppose if you want to twist Carra's quote,you can make it sound like he hasn't backed Rafa,but the truth is he hasn,t blamed him either ! It is frustrating watching us underperform,but it isn't like we're not creating chances,we're just not taking them.

I agree totally, F9T, that not everything can be blamed on a manager. Most players nowadays are overrated Prima Donnas.   

But ultimately why does any club need a manager if it's just down to players?   Who buys the players, trains the players, motivates the players and picks the tactics for the team every week? The manager.

When we won in Europe he was a tactical genius according to certain fans and yet when the team are miserable it's the players that are the sole problem? That's sheer rubbish. I admire Benitez's record in Europe and have said it many times. But his record in the Prem, the one we want most as even Carra said, isn't goodenough. Eddie and co.. seem incapable of criticising anything the manager does and point the finger at certain players. Yet these are players he bought, not Houllier rejects.
 
So when exactly do these "supporters" look at Benitez objectively and say what he is doing wrong?  The league table doesn't lie every year.

Yet again you miss the point, football is game you cannot under any circumstances look at in any uncertain terms objectively. What you have been trying to do in no uncertain terms is try to justify your position in a scientific manner. Football is not an exact science it never will be, the point that Eddie myself and F9T are trying to point out to you is that support is something that comes from emotion not from some statistic you find in maths book or by trying to justify ones postion from a small portion of something that is written by over enthusiastic Journalists.
The human way of expressing one self can have a number of different interpretations when it is written down. When Carra was interviewed for the said statements, what was his emotional state??

You state in some of your other posts that you are a realist, ok thats fair enough and that my friend is perfectly fine with me. However I really am beginning to wonder if you were not one of those that turned off the TV when we played AC Milan in Istanbul or one of those that left the stadium? Now ask yourself if that is real support because from where Im sitting it really doesnt look that way. You start your arguments by trying to place statements from players as if thats the exact as if thats what is exactly going on then you add your own opions onto their statements and try to justify your position as if its fact. Thats not fact that journalism, you cannot write or state anything in a scientific manner from opion it doesnt work that way you have to use a form of mathamatics called "methods of proof" in order to clarify and make things exact.

As far as Im concerned Rafa is a man that has bought us forward into the 21st Century. Reason being is he has proved that football is not a team game anymore its a squad game, albeit we are 12 points off the pace, but let me remind you that Arsenal were at the same point some years ago and yet still won the league. If Istanbul is anything to go buy does it not stand to reason that a similar thing may happen again albeit over a number of games.
Why not its happend before, I really dont see why you can be so negative I really dont. Just have faith and use belief it makes you feel better in the long run, and if things dont work out just shrug your shoulders and think "oh well you win some you lose some" thats the way football is. For F**k sake just give Rafa a break his record is pretty good from where Im sitting.

PS

We need to meet up in a pub to discuss this!!! F***ing right son

Pragmatic, if you can't look at football objectively then you'll make the kind of naive decisions David Moores made when he put Houllier in as a joint manager with Roy Evans because he was too emotionally involved with Roy Evans to be objective and realise his decision was professional insanity. I might seem clinical about Benitez but it doesn't mean I don't like the man himself or that I like the trashy way he's been treated by the Yanks. But I desperately want the best for the club so emotional ties can't come into it when talking about manager's jobs.

I base my opinion on what I see on the pitch, not stats or facts. However, if you want to state an argument on any forum then it's all just hollow opinions unless you back it up with facts. So when I make reference to stats like the fact we haven't beaten ManUre in the league or been top for more than one week, then it's just to highlight with significant facts the instinctive feeling I get from watching the team play - which is that something is always wrong with our team under Benitez and how we approach league games. Usually we're more concerned with not conceding a goal for the first hour and then after that we might actually take risks to try to go and win. This policy isn't working because we're drawing too many games and leaving it too late to try and win the games by pushing more men forward. Sport mirrors life and you can see a team with the psychology of winners and those who don't have it. Our team, irrespective of talent, do not have the psychology of a championship winning team and never will unless the managers drills it into them. He isn't doing that and that alone is why we're blown out of the title every xmas.

Istanbul was a once in a lifetime thing. It defied logic. But life and sport isn't like that very often. Logic can be relied upon 8/10 times as a basis to predict results. And logically speaking, we have little or no chance of winning the title this season. That's not saying there can't be another miracle. But Liverpool are too great a club to be waiting for miracles all the time.

You have to follow your own instincts, Pragmatic, and I've watched all types of football closely for over 25 years. I am positive, unless we get 100 million to spend on players in which case maybe even Harry Redknappy could win a title, Benitez will not win the Premier League on our current budget while Ferguson is around. But I do believe there are other managers who can make a better fight of it even with our current finances if they put the right mentality into the players. And don't buy such terrible strikers as Kuyt and Veronin. Quality rather than quantity is a lesson Benitez should learn.

Of course the players are heavily to blame too; but that's why a manager's primary job is to pick the right players who WON'T let him down and get him sacked.

You have to follow your own instincts, Pragmatic, and I've watched all types of football closely for over 25 years. I am positive, unless we get 100 million to spend on players in which case maybe even Harry Redknappy could win a title, Benitez will not win the Premier League on our current budget while Ferguson is around. But I do believe there are other managers who can make a better fight of it even with our current finances if they put the right mentality into the players. And don't buy such terrible strikers as Kuyt and Veronin. Quality rather than quantity is a lesson Benitez should learn.

I would not go near that far to say Kuyt is a terrible striker, he works F***ing harder than anyone I know, puts his all into every game, and I still think he has potential, Voronin is not a finisher, but he is someone that can provide the assists, and make clinical passes (Besiktas and Everton notably) I remember reading an article about Voronin, with the main bad point being his low goal tally. Another point is that quality costs money, of which it does take someone very rich (or a good theif) to have that amount of money. I am sorry if you think Rafa hasn't signed the likes of Jesus to play for us. But if you have the money to buy the quality we need, then you can go ahead and complain that Rafa has not been a good manager. Also, maybe you should try and do a better job.

Poolgiants, your saying Rafa doesnt have the skills as manager to take a sh*t team and turn it good. Well, Champions League 05 ring a bell?

Your saying even Harry Redknap could win the title with 100 million. Why couldnt Mourinho win the CL with his team?

Your saying a guy like Paul Jewell could take our team to the top if he gets stuck in?

You have lost it completely TBH. Your posts reflect the same message and you try to cover it by phrasing it a whole different way. Emotional ties have nothing to do with my choice of manager but common sense plays a big part. 99% of Liverpool fans can see that Rafa is the right man to take us up the table but unfortunately there are guys like you who demand results after 4 years and claim to know when the time is up for a manager. Go play God at LFC.tv forums.

Crouchinho, why don't you keep your mouth shut for a while and your eyes on the league table. Because until/unless Benitez wins the Premiership then I'm right and you're WRONG.  I have said Benitez won't win the LEAGUE at Liverpool  - and as yet I'm right.

What has Mourinho and the Champions League to do with a debate as to whether Benitez can win the PREMIERSHIP? Are you going to put money on Alex Ferguson winning the Champions League because of his Premiership record? Even when Ferguson proves every year his record in the Prem means fck all in Europe. And Benitez's record in Europe means fck all in the Premiership.

I couldn't be bothered interacting with the likes of you. LOOK AT THE LEAGUE TABLE for as long as Benitez remains in charge and if he doesn't win the league then maybe in future you'll be less of a hollow bigmouth.

If he does win it then I will JOYOUSLY admit to be 100 per cent wrong. So we'll wait and see.

You being right untill he wins is a complete joke. Just like holding someone a prisoner for the sake of it until they prove they have done nothing wrong.

Why did Fergie enter this subject mate?
I in fact said on another topic that Fergie deserves no accolaide in Europe and his Prem record has been taken into account when voted best coach in the CL on Uefa.com .
Mourinho did because you claimed anyone who has 100 million can win any trophy and yet Jose did not win the CL as Rafa did with a squad worth 4 goats and a chicken.

My eyes are on the table and i see a team possibly 9 points behind the leaders. An improvement in fact Poolgiants compared to previous seasons. Your beloved facts have a way of back firing on you my friend.

Crouchinho, I agree with you about Ferguson; he deserves no accolade in Europe looking at his record.

But you live in cuckoo land if you think being 9 points off top by January is anything to be proud about or call improvement. Maybe this time next year we'll be only 8 points off and in your brain that will prove we're improving. Incidentally, the table says we're currently 15 points behind so until the points are in the bag I would stick to reality.

Mourinho won the Premiership with 100 million and I'd expect Benitez might too, as might many other managers. But whether we get 100 million to spend is unlikely and Benitez has shown he can't do it without a lot more money. So we won't be any much better next year in the league with him unless he spends heavily. Mounrinho won the European Cup at Porto without 100 million so he matched Benitez's 2005 achievement with Liverpool. Because Porto have never been richer than Liverpool.