Vote: Sacrifice Ruining Four Years Of Building?

You know.  Sitting here listening to peoples opinions on the forum and it's pretty evenly spread out but you don't need me to point that out.  Some want Rafa to stay, give him another season infact to show that we are not going in the wrong direction.  Others have seen enough and want to see a change that would be 'for the best'. 

But throw away just over four years of building the squad?  Come on.  That's a blow isn't it?

Fair enough.  Some people say we kept on to Gerard Houllier for too long.  I don't think that's much of a true statement.  Ged nearly got us the Prem but we were pushed over by Arsenals huge arse players.  Fair play.  He did his best.
Only when David Moores involved more money Ged went AWOL and signed the most ridiculous signings with the money.  Leading to Liverpool going back downhill and leading to his sacking.  Then Rafa stepped up to whip a Liverpool side in to winning shape again.

Here were/are Rafa's regulars for the following seasons:

2004/05 squad

Dudek or Kirkland - both sold

Finnan - still here
Carra - still here
Sami - still here
Josemi - sold (bought by Rafa)

Garcia - sold (bought by Rafa)
Gerrard - still here
Alonso - still here (bought by Rafa)
Riise - still here

Cisse - sold (originally bought by Ged)
Baros - sold

5th in Premiership
Champions League Winners
Runners up Carling Cup
2005/06 squad

Reina - still here (bought by Rafa)

Finnan - still here
Carra - still here
Sami - still here (Agger signed in January - wasn't a regular)
Riise - still here

Gerrard - still here
Alonso - still here
Momo - sold (bought by Rafa)
Kewell - still here

Crouch - still here (bought by Rafa)
Morientes - sold (bought by Rafa)

3rd in Premiership (amazing unbeaten run)
Super Cup winners
FA Cup winners
2006/07 season

Reina - still here

Finnan - still here
Carra - still here
Agger - still here (bought by Rafa)
Riise - still here

Pennant - still here (bought by Rafa)
Alonso - still here
Momo - sold
Gerrard - still here

Bellamy - sold (bought by Rafa)
Kuyt - (bought by Rafa)

3rd in Premiership
Community Shield winners
2007/08 season (present)

Reina - still here

Finnan - still here
Carra - still here
Sami - still here (Agger has been out for most of the season)
Riise - still here

Benayoun - still here (bought by Rafa)
Gerrard - still here
Mascherano - still here (signed by Rafa on loan - currently finalizing permanent deal)
Kewell - still here (Babel - signed by Rafa, benchwarmer)

Torres - still here (signed by Rafa)
Kuyt - still here (Crouch being left out as usual)

Currently fighting for at least 4th place in the Premiership
1st Qualifying Round of Champions League vs Inter Milan

OK.  So did that jog your memory a little bit?  It certainly did with me.  All off the top of my head.

Rafa has spent a hell of a lot of money.  But he's been building & still is building a Premier League winning side.

Games like Man City away make you think.  It's a F***ing joke that we couldn't win the game and come away with a draw.  But the chances was being created but no one there to finish them.  Not even Torres.  So what does that tell you?  That we're one, two world class signings away from putting together the strongest bid for the League?

Not to meantion the sh*te that our club has had to endure this season with our lieing b***ard owners nearly sending us all loopy with the situation about Rafa, the press, the lies, the money, the new stadium, talking to a different manager about Rafa's job and going out and telling the press,  Need I say more?


I want to see everyone's opinion in here.  Whether your against Rafa, unsure, want Rafa to stay.  Whatever your opinion post it with full confidence.  No wind up posts though.  They're not needed.  It's time we come together as fans and put aside all the disagreements because at this rough stage in our history, the last thing we want is fans against fans.

As we stand together we will shift these bas**rds out of our club & once again with ease, go for the League.

I feel we should stick with rafa. He certainly is building talent, He needs substantial financial backing in order to show us what he can really do and I cant stress that enough, whether he will get it or not will decide whether we will win the league under him in my opinion. He needs to be able to buy his first choice players not second third etc.

I do think he is overlooking all of our young talent, too many of them are being wasted sitting in the reserves and they need to be used, strikers are the best players to bring up from the reserves in my opinion and we have needed someone who can score goal upfront with torres this season. I feel he should use them alot more than he does and they shouldnt be loaned out so much, if Anderson and Hammill dont come back and break into the first team next season I am going to lose my mind.

I also think he needs to stop being so loyal to some players, At times it works e.g. crouch when he first joined but when it doesnt he should really take notice of that and act upon it. Kuyt has worked extremely hard this season but hasnt offered exactly what we needed which was goals, goals win games and its that simple. We should rotate all teams do it really but no so many players each time, some games we rotate as many as 5 6 players and that is too many.

We need to focus upon making the team strong and showing teams why anfield is a famously difficult place to come to. I feel anfield is no longer as daunting to opposition teams and we need to reinstall that fear factor that we had last season. A team wants to come to anfield, Crush them with ruthless attacking, sharp finishing defend like your life depends on it and tear apart the opposition team with acurate passing. Show teams what a fortress anfield really is and this can only happen with the fans and players in unison, The fans react well to good play with great support,noise and shaking up the opposition by acting as the 12th man, and the players bounce of the fans support with good play so they need one another for it all to work. 

This all comes together with everyone working together by supporting one another well and acting like fans should and sticking by your team through thick and thin.

YNWA.

I agree with you Court,if we get rid of Rafa it will be a case of starting all over again and probably another 3 or 4 years to get back to where we are.Without checking we have the 2nd best goals against in the premier league,so you are correct we are lacking in the striking department and badly need a good left winger and another good striker to play alongside Torres who can put the ball in the net on a regular basis.We have strength in depth in midfield and as long as Mascherano signs a contract we will be secure for the immediate future.

Excellent post Court.

For me it's without doubt that Rafa should be allowed to continue

People who call for Rafa to be sacked are, in my opinion, thinking short term, short sighted.

If Rafa goes then we have to:-

 a.) Find a manager of a similar quality who wants to come and work at Anfield with the current owners H&G and mark my words, if we get a new manager and it turns out to be the wrong one and then have to find another we will see this Club nose dive.(see point b)

b.) See many of Rafa's signings leave to pursue their careers elsewhere and not witness the development of younger players signed by Rafa.


Its been a tough season on and off the field and a rollercoaster of a ride. Lets think long term. Rafa is one of the best managers in the world,who if sacked, would only go on and win trophies for another team somewhere else whilst we're left with a 'yes' man put in place by H &G (Klinsmann).

To all you doubters out there, I say have some patience and faith. If people knock us in the press, on Sky or just mates down the pub its only because they are envious of LFC. Whatever the results, we have to get through this season and stick together, get behind the manager and we will see the rewards in seasons to come.

There is no question at all that Rafa should continue next season.

I know you can't sack all our forwards, except for Torres... but that is what needed now... not the sacking of the manager who put a game plan together to create chances for our forwards... which happened.

It's our forwards that can put the thing in the back of the net that it is at fault - sacking a manager for surreal finishing by, so called acomplished, very highly-paid forwards... is not the answer.

Kuyt, Voro - hang your heads in total shame this season, you are an embarrasment to your shirts and your past. Get rid... Crouch you are given the benefit of the doubt, until after the game tomorrow night.

IRWT

Nemeth and Jordi - start getting your boots get ready... because I think you might be playing a few first team games from here to May...

I would love to see Nemeth given a chance, but Brouwer? No way. The lad has done nothing to impress me whilst playing against other reserve teams, I haven't seen anything to convince me he could cut it in the first team.

I'm in total agreement regarding keeping Rafa, too many good managers are out on their arses after too few games, Jol for one, Allardyce for two, not since the likes of Slur Alex and Arse have managers had the time to to build a squad, instant success is required these days and it rarely happens, (except in the case of us in 05) and thats the problem with the critics, too happy to stick their noses an knifes into our backs and business !
we were the first British team in 6 years to lift "old big ears" and instantly we were expected to win the Premier League the following season with the team that Houllier left us with !
Now I'm not saying we were lucky to win the cup , but consistency is whats required in the League and we didnt/haven't got it, what we had was a belief in ourselves that the European cup/Champions league belonged to us and over the period of spaced out games we had the fire in our bellies and the hearts and legs of two scousers ( no names required !) to gee up the rest of team for a few games!
We need more commitment from more players and less rotation from Rafa (2-3 maybe not 5-6!) Rafa's The (Stubborn) man !
we need a settled ownership (whoever they may be )who are prepared to give the manager more time  unlike Newcastle  & Spurs ! 
I also wonder how long the managers who eventually replace Alex and Arsene will get ?
Now lets get a move on starting with tuesday night  I.R.W.T !    Y.N.W.A !

I would love to see Nemeth given a chance, but Brouwer? No way. The lad has done nothing to impress me whilst playing against other reserve teams, I haven't seen anything to convince me he could cut it in the first team.

Fair enough, agreed on Brouwer (just think he could do it, personal, be it irrational feeling and opinion!)

...would give Insua a shot in the first team... and Mikel San Jose.... tell me they don't look the part on the flank and at the back... and I wouldn't have loaned Hobbs either - that one I can't defend for Rafa... if you want character builiding experiences at the ELITE level, no better place than our dressing room at the minute....

Nemeth def deserves his chance THIS season.
 

Finally a good thread with actual facts and stats. I would stick with him definetly he is working on something here, he has a game plan but i think has just let him self down in executing it when it comes to fielding the youth side. I really would like to see a Liverpool youngster to burst onto the scene that would be anactodal evidence that Rafa has set up a good youth policy and shut some media outlets up.

I dont think that if we get a new manager we will win the PL within the first 3 years, not with the owners we have and a change of manager to the nucleus of our team would be somewhat of a shock to the system. Besides i like Rafa alot and dont thik that he has ever been given the credit and recognition he deserves by the media.

Excellent thread Court mate!

My sentiments exactly fella! We're still on our way to becoming a much stronger side! Yes, we've had a bit of a sh*te season upto now but I'm sure a (still entirely possible, we've a much better squad than 2005) Champions League win would appease our more 'fickle' of fans. Only the most ardent of gobshites would be able to bypass that! :

Nice to see some common sense being spoke mate!

Great post Court

I have to say Im really not sure what to think at the moment. Some of Rafas decsion making and tactical awareness have been very disapointing this season. And on occasions it has looked as if players havent known wtf they are doing. But having said that the playing staff have also not performed to their full potential.

To be honest if we lose Tuesday then Rafa will be gone by the weekend, those yanky bastads are looking for an excuse and after Saturday this will leave them no choice in my opion. I would not like to see this happen on 3 fronts. 1. It will mean a mass exodus of playing talent 2.It will mean another number of years for a new manager to build a premiership winning team. 3. Jose is waiting in the wings which will really make me sucidal.

In retrospect it could be argued that Rafa has had too much success to early on and this could be the one of the reasons why we are having a kick back effect at the moment. I think this could have been the case with Jose Moronhio too, too much success at times can make people arrogant and blind to the truth at times, and along with all the pressure from the media stories and all the other crap that has gone on a falling out between owner and manager can often lead to partnerships ending.

I hope it doesnt come to this but the fans will only take so much before they begin to turn on Rafa because of his lack of results. When I was coming out of the ground Saturday, I was talking to a old kopite as we were walking along the Wallbrek Road, he had been coming to Anfield since he was 10 years old and was even one of those who was a regular in the boys paddock( that was a long time ago we had one of those) I have a whole hearted respect for those guys as their love of the club holds no bars. But as we parted his last sentance was "its time for him to go". That kinda hit home a bit as the old brigade tend to be a bit more conshentious about their opions. I hope Rafa will know when to call it a day and leave when he thinks its right, as I would not like it if he left being hated, I would prefer it if he left being respected and loved for the glory he gave us.

Rafa will leave if we don't make 4th spot... he won't need to be sacked.

And will straight into a top, top job in Italy or Spain... probably Spain... is that Barcelona looking for a new manager?

I R W T

Support is about being positive about the battle ahead in team's and manager's hour of need. End of.

Great post Court.

I'm not sure what to think about Rafa at the moment, i really thought this year we would be challenging for the title, but as Eddie has pointed out in numerous threads, we have created loads of chances and just not taken them, so the blame there lies with the players.

But as prag has mentioned above, some of his decisions have been strange this season. I would love him to stay, but now i really think for him to keep his job he needs to win the champions league, the owners are looking for an excuse to get rid of him now.

I would give him 3 years (if he's fully backed by the board) to win the PL, if we haven't won by then, then i would start to question whether he can take us any further, but at the moment, he has my backing.

Rafa will leave if we don't make 4th spot... he won't need to be sacked.

And will straight into a top, top job in Italy or Spain... probably Spain... is that Barcelona looking for a new manager?

I R W T

Support is about being positive about the battle ahead in team's and manager's hour of need. End of.

Let correct myself - Rafa will leave if we don't make 4th spot AND we don't win the Champions League final.

Ever the optimist... I R W T.

Great thread court.As an old fart myself (over40 years below the mast) I can understand where the bloke talking to pragmatic on saturday is coming from.
Whilst as far as I'm concerned Rafa is the best man for the job, I believe that if were not successful over the 2 Milan games, then Rafa will go- why, because he is a proud Spaniard who will not tolerate the inevitable media sh*te that would follow. We are a club of INTEGRITY and so is the current manager, so starting with tomorrow we must voice our support for him and the team.
IRWT remember YNWA

Sacrifice 4 years of building?weve not moved on much in those 4 years have we?look at utd they just go from strength to strength Arsenal had a average season last year but look at them now.

Sacrifice 4 years of building?weve not moved on much in those 4 years have we?look at utd they just go from strength to strength Arsenal had a average season last year but look at them now.

Well the expectations that everyone now has on us to win the league shows that we have moved on hugely, when Rafa came who expected us to be title challengers, him even getting us considered speaks volumes for me.

Sacrifice 4 years of building?weve not moved on much in those 4 years have we?look at utd they just go from strength to strength Arsenal had a average season last year but look at them now.

Why compare us to arsenal, That is the perfect example of why rafa should stay and what he is doing, What was the last thing arsenal won? I bet we have won something since that, Rafa is building a team, it takes time. Instant success is not a reality how long will it take for people to realise this. Rafa had to get rid of the players that needed to go as soon as he got here and that took some time and now people want us to do that allllll over again, go through players getting sold new players coming in and having to wait for the team to gel.

People who want rafa to go fair enough he has made mistakes but all managers have to be honest, We need to stick by him. As for man u fergie has money piled into his hands when he wants it hence his success. Fans wanted him out after a few years because he wasnt living upto expectations and the board stuck by him and look at him now, but people would rather us turn into a newcastle/tottenham getting rid of any manager who doesnt challenge for the title.

We need rafa to have the ingredients he needs for success in order to manage in his style and that is 1 thing 1 simple thing he asks for, substantial financial backing, is that so much to ask. I think rafa would sell alot more players that he thinks arent good enough given decent backing but with having to buy second best he is forced to keep players because it means he now needs them in place of the players he cant get.

A lot more positivity than I expected to be honest!!

I'm not saying your all a bunch of moaning gets

But I was right.  The some views are spread out and generally there's a lot more optimism about keeping hold of Rafa.

Sacrifice 4 years of building?weve not moved on much in those 4 years have we?look at utd they just go from strength to strength Arsenal had a average season last year but look at them now.

I agree with you to some extent there mate.  But basically Rafa has improved us bit by bit over the last 4 seasons and as you can see he's sold a lot of players that he's bought in the past.

With Rafa's signings it's basically hit or miss.

HIT

Xabi Alonso - £10,000,000
Pepe Reina - £6,500,000
Fernando Torres - £20,000,000
Momo Sissoko - £5,000,000 (sold this January for £8,000,000)
Javier Mascherano - £0 (Loan deal runs out in the summer, permanent deal in the works worth around £17,000,000)
Daniel Agger - £5,000,000
Robbie Fowler - £0

BIT OF BOTH
Djibrill Cisse - £14,000,000 (not one of Rafa's signings but money could of been used elsewhere)
Peter Crouch - £7,000,000
Luis Garcia - £6,000,000 (used in a part-exchange for Fernando Torres, worth around £4,000,000)
Jermaine Pennant - £8,000,000
Dirk Kuyt - £9,000,000
Bolo Zenden - £0

MISS
Josemi - £2,500,000
Fernando Morientes - £6,000,000
Andriy Voronin - £0
Kromkamp - £0

The list goes on... obviously I haven't noted down every signing.  Just an example if you will.

But this really is a master plan of building for success that Rafa has locked in his brain.  We will become Champions under Rafa.  He's building us back up to what we once were back in the 70's & the 80's.  Unstoppable.

Good analysis of rafas signings Court, another thing to take note of would be as you said you obviously havent named them all.

He has signed alot of youngsters aswell who have most certainly been hits in the reserves e.g. nemeth, leto, insua and i hope they will be hits in the first team sometime soon.

Good analysis of rafas signings Court, another thing to take note of would be as you said you obviously havent named them all.

He has signed alot of youngsters aswell who have most certainly been hits in the reserves e.g. nemeth, leto, insua and i hope they will be hits in the first team sometime soon.

Exactly mate!

And if you take the youngsters down for example, Babel, Anderson, Lucas, Hobbs, Nemeth.  It's a success plan that has been proven by Arsenal as well!

We're always signing young, new & exciting talent.  It's only a matter of time before it's graduation day for some of them.

Just look at Stevie G.  Argueably the best player for LFC alongside King Kenny.  Came from the youth.  Broke in to the first team.  And other people thinking.  "Who's this young lad"?  No one had a clue what Gerrard would be capeable of in 5 years time.  That's the opinion that I've got on some of our newest recruits to the youth & reserves.  Other examples of Michael Owen that always scored goals for fun for us.  Jamie Carragher who is absolutely unbeatable at the back. 

It's not all about signing £20+ million players every season.  Young players are absolutely essential for the future.

Exactly. Things are alot brighter than they seem if you look into it deeply. Thats the way i try to look at it aswell, you never know how great they can be given a chance. Right now i feel annoyed that they arent being given a chance but i feel that this is coming from me feeling dissapointed and irrational thinking due to bad results from such high expectation at the start of the season.

I have a feeling rafa has a plan and that is part of the reason he wants to stay so much. Imagine the feeling you would get seeing a player you bought and had faith in when they were young grow and develop into one of the best in the game. How amazing must that be. This is why Arsene Wenger loved thierry henry so much, He picked him up when people thought he was just another winger and unearthed his potential and made him great.

Our youth setup is fantastic and i have faith in rafa helping alot of them to succeed.

I'm not saying your all a bunch of moaning gets

Terrible thread this Court. 

Spot on mate. The building process is still on it's way and to get rid of Rafa would certainly put us back in my eyes. The youth and the reserves are progressing well and that hopefully indicates a longer future of not having to solely rely on transfer funds. In turn probably helping us to compete for the best players in the transfer market.

But, I feel the 'play your best players' notion has to be laid down now. And if Rafa doesn't, he'll only be adding more pressure on himself if the team doesn't get the results. We don't make more changes to our team than the other big three, but when we make these changes it will usually be key players like Gerrard, Reina, Mascherano and sometimes Torres.

We just have to let Rafa do his job and see what happens at the end of the season.