About patterns, "verticality" and progress

I thought this was an interesting article (see below) that helps to further shed light on our lack of "verticality".

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/sport/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2012/12/06/99623-32370069/

Andy Proudfoot’s Redwatch: Too many water carriers, not enough water

    by Our Correspondent, The Liverpool Post
    Dec 6 2012


THOSE of you who were around in the eighties and early nineties will remember a Liverpool player called Ronnie Whelan.

Ronnie was an Irish midfielder who joined us from Home Farm in 1979, and made a scoring debut in 1981 against Stoke City shortly after we’d won the League Cup against West Ham.

Over the next 10 years or so Ronnie picked up a shed load of medals including six championships and a European Cup and he captained the side for a few seasons at the back end of the eighties.

No-one who saw it will ever forget his magnificent ‘cut shot’ that sailed over United’s Gary Bailey to give us the League Cup in 1983.

He played nearly 500 games for the Reds, scoring 73 goals.

Now the thing about Whelan was that, despite all this, he was never a particular fans’ favourite. Though not short of skill, Ronnie was essentially a ‘fetcher and carrier’, someone who was expert at reading play and breaking up attacks, then giving the ball to the more creative players like Souness, Beardsley and Barnes.

Whether on the left or centre of midfield, he played a vital role in keeping the team moving, the oil on the cogs if you like, setting the tempo and doing the ‘dirty work’ for the team.

Not a role to have the Kop chanting your name perhaps, but every successful team needs one.

One of our problems now is that we seem to have a dozen of them.

Lucas Leiva can probably lay the greatest claim to Whelan’s heritage, though without the goals of course. The industry he showed on his return last Saturday was great credit to a man who has struggled through two major injuries in the last year, and his intelligent interceptions and use of the ball clearly demonstrated why this former target for the ‘boo-boys’ is now likely to become a fixture in the side once again.

Then there’s Joe Allen. Brought from Swansea for his immaculate pass completion rate and ability to press opponents into mistakes, he too can keep the team ticking over, change the direction of the attack and feed the forward players. He may play further forward now that Lucas is back, but for me he’s firmly in the ‘water carrier’ class, though there’s nothing wrong with that in itself.

I think I’ve had enough of Jordan Henderson now. He might also fit into this category, but you do need to make the occasional forward pass even as a link player, and it also helps if you’re not paralysed with fear every time you find yourself in the opposition penalty area. He’s young, I know, but I can’t see what progress he’s made since he’s been here. A good engine’s one thing, but it helps to have more than two gears.

To put Nuri Sahin into this class of player may seem a little harsh, but he comes closest to being able to match Whelan’s goal threat, while still being the sort of player who will add most to the team by helping others to play.

While Rodgers’ style obviously places a high premium on players of this nature, playing too many of them just begs the question of who they are ‘fetching and carrying’ for.

Perhaps the reintroduction of Suso at the expense of one of these players might just provide the creative spark that ensures all our heavy possession occasionally translates into genuine goalscoring opportunities.

Read More http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/sport/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2012/12/06/99623-32370069/#ixzz2EFqWNH5a

I thought this was an interesting article (see below) that helps to further shed light on our lack of "verticality".

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/sport/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2012/12/06/99623-32370069/

Andy Proudfoot’s Redwatch: Too many water carriers, not enough water

    by Our Correspondent, The Liverpool Post
    Dec 6 2012


THOSE of you who were around in the eighties and early nineties will remember a Liverpool player called Ronnie Whelan.

Ronnie was an Irish midfielder who joined us from Home Farm in 1979, and made a scoring debut in 1981 against Stoke City shortly after we’d won the League Cup against West Ham.

Over the next 10 years or so Ronnie picked up a shed load of medals including six championships and a European Cup and he captained the side for a few seasons at the back end of the eighties.

No-one who saw it will ever forget his magnificent ‘cut shot’ that sailed over United’s Gary Bailey to give us the League Cup in 1983.

He played nearly 500 games for the Reds, scoring 73 goals.

Now the thing about Whelan was that, despite all this, he was never a particular fans’ favourite. Though not short of skill, Ronnie was essentially a ‘fetcher and carrier’, someone who was expert at reading play and breaking up attacks, then giving the ball to the more creative players like Souness, Beardsley and Barnes.

Whether on the left or centre of midfield, he played a vital role in keeping the team moving, the oil on the cogs if you like, setting the tempo and doing the ‘dirty work’ for the team.

Not a role to have the Kop chanting your name perhaps, but every successful team needs one.

One of our problems now is that we seem to have a dozen of them.

Lucas Leiva can probably lay the greatest claim to Whelan’s heritage, though without the goals of course. The industry he showed on his return last Saturday was great credit to a man who has struggled through two major injuries in the last year, and his intelligent interceptions and use of the ball clearly demonstrated why this former target for the ‘boo-boys’ is now likely to become a fixture in the side once again.

Then there’s Joe Allen. Brought from Swansea for his immaculate pass completion rate and ability to press opponents into mistakes, he too can keep the team ticking over, change the direction of the attack and feed the forward players. He may play further forward now that Lucas is back, but for me he’s firmly in the ‘water carrier’ class, though there’s nothing wrong with that in itself.

I think I’ve had enough of Jordan Henderson now. He might also fit into this category, but you do need to make the occasional forward pass even as a link player, and it also helps if you’re not paralysed with fear every time you find yourself in the opposition penalty area. He’s young, I know, but I can’t see what progress he’s made since he’s been here. A good engine’s one thing, but it helps to have more than two gears.

To put Nuri Sahin into this class of player may seem a little harsh, but he comes closest to being able to match Whelan’s goal threat, while still being the sort of player who will add most to the team by helping others to play.

While Rodgers’ style obviously places a high premium on players of this nature, playing too many of them just begs the question of who they are ‘fetching and carrying’ for.

Perhaps the reintroduction of Suso at the expense of one of these players might just provide the creative spark that ensures all our heavy possession occasionally translates into genuine goalscoring opportunities.

Read More http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/sport/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2012/12/06/99623-32370069/#ixzz2EFqWNH5a

Good article that. Fairly accurate assessment of where we are at.
Unless we recruit players to support Suarez up front then it'll remain to be the case.

Good post Diego although not sure about "verticality".

Erection? erect:. cock up??

Stick to words we all can understand.

Penetration...

Penetration...

I think "penetration" can come (without new signings) when the players feel more freedom to play a longer, quicker, forward ball.

I'm not sure if the reason this had been lacking, (prior to the Saints game), was down to a lack of confidence (in making that pass) or fear that they were somehow deviating from the 'possession is god' ethos. Either way; I saw improvements which were down (in my opinion) to that longer pass.

I think "penetration" can come (without new signings) when the players feel more freedom to play a longer, quicker, forward ball.

I'm not sure if the reason this had been lacking, (prior to the Saints game), was down to a lack of confidence (in making that pass) or fear that they were somehow deviating from the 'possession is god' ethos. Either way; I saw improvements which were down (in my opinion) to that longer pass.

I think it comes down to players being outside their comfort zone.
We've compromised in midfield without Lucas and his return puts other players back into their natural positions.

I think "penetration" can come (without new signings) when the players feel more freedom to play a longer, quicker, forward ball.

I'm not sure if the reason this had been lacking, (prior to the Saints game), was down to a lack of confidence (in making that pass) or fear that they were somehow deviating from the 'possession is god' ethos. Either way; I saw improvements which were down (in my opinion) to that longer pass.

See I'm not sure about that. Stevie is just about the only starter who would naturally play long, maybe Skrtel as well. The Academy players play more Spanish than English due to their education by people like Pep, Rodolfo, etc., so their natural inclination is to play a shorter passing game. Dagger and Glen are also better in a short game. Allen will only play a long ball if he sees the opportunity to do so (and he has done before). Enrique can pick out a long pass, but it's only ever to Suarez, which is fine because they've been stellar this season.

I know you're not saying it for the sake of playing long, but I don't see the point in those passes unless someone is making a good enough run to receive. I think the less we do it, the more effective it will be when we do. Stevie to Glen is the best example of a long throughball because of the run Glen made. Until Borini is back or we dip into the market in January, our wide players will have to make better runs. I think that's part of what Diego is arguing.

We've compromised in midfield without Lucas and his return puts other players back into their natural positions.

Oh without a doubt mate but I'd noticed, prior to his return, no player (excluding Stevie) was looking for that 'killer' pass; the type that looks risky; the type which brings moans from the crowd should it fail.

It seemed to me that we (players and fans) were so taken in by the 'philosophy' of possession football that we were afraid to play a pass which could give that cherished possession up. We can check back if needs be but I noticed that even Stevie was the victim of our 'displeasure' at giving the ball away.

The thing is; all good teams play 'dodgy' balls which give possession away. If you look at Barca for e.g.; really look at them... you'll see that they do just that time and time again. They win possession back and try again; if they try it 10 times and it only comes off once then they score. They have no fear of failure and when we lose that fear things will improve.

That's were we come in and play our part - instead of moaning when a forward, attacking, pass goes astray ('cause we've lost possession) we should encourage the lads to keep trying. Possession without quick, forward passes is as useless as tits on a bull.

I know you're not saying it for the sake of playing long, but I don't see the point in those passes unless someone is making a good enough run to receive.

By "longer" I meant more than five/ten yards; by "quicker" I meant one pass to make that (say 15 yards) rather than ten. Runs and finding space are important, of course they are; they were when I played football; they were when I coached. However a player is less prone to make runs if he knows the ball is unlikely to arrive and that's a fact.

The quicker ball, in turn, leads to more forward runs being made and by more people. I hope this makes sense.

Was just midway through posting a long winded response to a top OP then I leant on my touchpad and it flicked the interweb off.

Rather than repeat it again I'll shorten it down to bullet form

1. I wanted KK to be given another chance to rectify his obvious errors last season. The fact a man of his standing wasn't allowed that time is IMO a black mark against FSG and ultimately the club.

2. We are no better off at this stage of the season than we were at the same stage last season. We have less points (I think), on the brink of being out of 2 cup competitions and have what I feel is a poorer (perhaps weaker) squad of players.

3. I do however see more of a philosophy or style of play this term than the last. Last season it seemed that one game we would go from playing some nice footie of the deck, passing teams to a standstill and creating chance after (largely unsuccessful) chance, then the next game simply using Carroll as a flimsy battering ram. It left me wondering just what we were trying to achieve and where we could go from there at times.

4. Now game to game, win lose or draw we have more of an identity about our play and the hope has to be that over time, and with the right additions to the squad, the players will become more familiar and comfortable with the ideas of Brendan and ultimately results will pick up.

5. We have to give Bren a chance as fans, and FSG have to give him a chance as owners. We as fans have to be patient, and FSG as owners have to be interested, willing and patient too.

6. Kenny is gone, Brendan is here and as we say up north 'it is what it is'. Now we all have to hold our nerve and see where it takes us in the long run.