Cup Double or Top 4?

No idea when it started Debs... I have always thought it was a Shankly saying, so maybe you are right with '65.

 

Cheers Saint.  Maybe Skip or Billy will know.

Cheers Saint.  Maybe Skip or Billy will know.

It was the club’s former chairman, David Moores, who once issued the mantra "Liverpool Club exists to win trophies".
According to a clip I found in the daily snail via google !
Edit: I've found clips crediting Shankly for the comment from the same F***ing paper, so what the F**k do I know ! (gets his coat and leaves)

Preferring a top four spot means we want to build the club to win domestic cups and continental cups and league titles in the future. It's not some new-era point of view that doesn't care about domestic cups and only about being in the CL.

Winning a domestic cup does very little to improve a club's reputation and the money that comes with it is a pittance.

Top four = more money, better squad, better quality and in three to four seasons all of a sudden we don't have this discussion because we have enough about us to field weakened teams and still be very tough to beat and can win domestic cups without prioritising it over league positioning.

Hilariously, people refer to some underwhelming signings this season so far as a reason to not advocate the higher income CL prizemoney gives you. The important thing is being in that position to buy better players.

Edit: just as an aside, do people think that winning the FA Cup and Carling Cup built some winning culture or gave us a platform to improve moreso than had we qualified for the CL the previous five years?

"Exist to win trophies"

Can't be anymore clear than that, when you have won a trophy you have something in your hands, you raise it abover your head, and it's placed in your trophy room on display,
The win it's self is registered in the annuls of history for future generations,

Finishing second,third,and fourth, gives you F**k all, you have NOTHING in your hands, nor above your head,  NOTHING in your trophy cabinet,  and no f***in history,

Like JD said,  by winning trophies you have something to tell your grandkids,  you beam with pride, and your kids grand kids will be mesmerised with your tales of the day......

You won't feel the same pride telling them your team qualified for the Champions league ten years on the bounce.......Unless

Your a glory hunter...Or your a Arsenal fan!



YNWA

Preferring a top four spot means we want to build the club to win domestic cups and continental cups and league titles in the future. It's not some new-era point of view that doesn't care about domestic cups and only about being in the CL.

Winning a domestic cup does very little to improve a club's reputation and the money that comes with it is a pittance.

Top four = more money, better squad, better quality and in three to four seasons all of a sudden we don't have this discussion because we have enough about us to field weakened teams and still be very tough to beat and can win domestic cups without prioritising it over league positioning.

Hilariously, people refer to some underwhelming signings this season so far as a reason to not advocate the higher income CL prizemoney gives you. The important thing is being in that position to buy better players.

Edit: just as an aside, do people think that winning the FA Cup and Carling Cup built some winning culture or gave us a platform to improve moreso than had we qualified for the CL the previous five years?

Sorry Crouchie, but unless you have owners that are prepared to spend the extra money generated on top class players, it won't be that way! You believe they will,  but you're in the minority there!

It totally devalues the Champions League that you don't even have to be a champion to get into it anyway,  that's why I think the league cup and FA cup winners should gain entry in place of the 3rd and 4th place teams. That would put the value back into winning the domestic competitions.

Preferring a top four spot means we want to build the club to win domestic cups and continental cups and league titles in the future. It's not some new-era point of view that doesn't care about domestic cups and only about being in the CL.

Winning a domestic cup does very little to improve a club's reputation and the money that comes with it is a pittance.

Top four = more money, better squad, better quality and in three to four seasons all of a sudden we don't have this discussion because we have enough about us to field weakened teams and still be very tough to beat and can win domestic cups without prioritising it over league positioning.

Hilariously, people refer to some underwhelming signings this season so far as a reason to not advocate the higher income CL prizemoney gives you. The important thing is being in that position to buy better players.

Edit: just as an aside, do people think that winning the FA Cup and Carling Cup built some winning culture or gave us a platform to improve moreso than had we qualified for the CL the previous five years?

Of course what you say makes sense from one point of view, and the people who say they want to win trophies don't want us not to be in the scenario you paint..
I do think there is a difference for over seas fans and none match goers though, I dot mean that to come across as one is better than the other as I have never uttered anything like that in any post I have written.. But to be a regular match goer, to have gone to many finals, those who have seen us win and lose those finals, those memories don't go. I think it's easier to be slightly detached from that if you don't go or haven't experienced that.. ( I have full respect for the over seas fans who get up in the middle of the night and don't question their passion)
Winning the CL was and is the same experience as the domestic ones.

I think the ones saying cup doubles are simply just not wanting to simply write off those days and memories.

It's not either or really for me, I didn't read the question that way and if the question is that then it's a daft one.
There is no right and wrong answer, saying you still want to win trophies and go to those and take our kids doesn't mean that ones who have never experienced that can sit and say we're stupid and CL money means more.

You know what, let's want it all.. But I'm not prepared to not be passionate about winning cups to simply fit in with modern day corporate football thinking

Think all the glamour and razzmatazz of the CL has been well and truly sold to fans and the devalue actual domestic treasures like they are nothing compared to that.
Bit weird to go oh! if we meekly just get 4th place it's what we aim for.. we might get players here to our humble club.

Firstly and most importantly; the new team and manager has to smell that feeling of triumph and it will stand them in good stead for all the future experiences against more tactically diverse and rich clubs in Europe.

The CL can seem sterile and cautious (similar to the World Cup and Euro's) compared to a really exciting home cup run.

Of course what you say makes sense from one point of view, and the people who say they want to win trophies don't want us not to be in the scenario you paint..
I do think there is a difference for over seas fans and none match goers though, I dot mean that to come across as one is better than the other as I have never uttered anything like that in any post I have written.. But to be a regular match goer, to have gone to many finals, those who have seen us win and lose those finals, those memories don't go. I think it's easier to be slightly detached from that if you don't go or haven't experienced that.. ( I have full respect for the over seas fans who get up in the middle of the night and don't question their passion)
Winning the CL was and is the same experience as the domestic ones.

I think the ones saying cup doubles are simply just not wanting to simply write off those days and memories.

It's not either or really for me, I didn't read the question that way and if the question is that then it's a daft one.
There is no right and wrong answer, saying you still want to win trophies and go to those and take our kids doesn't mean that ones who have never experienced that can sit and say we're stupid and CL money means more.

You know what, let's want it all.. But I'm not prepared to not be passionate about winning cups to simply fit in with modern day corporate football thinking

Whether you're in Liverpool or Los Angeles, a Cup loss or a Cup win provides the same euphoria. I've seen grown men and women cry in a pub when we lost to Chelsea in the FA Cup final and i saw people in the crowd at Wembley in Liverpool kits having a giggle with their mates at full time. I really have no idea where you got that crap from that match-goers appreciate trophies more. Everyone enjoys seeing their team win.

Look down the road in 3-5 seasons and ask yourself. What will put Liverpool Football Club in a better position to be the best in the world? Winning the FA/Carling Cup or being in the CL?

Ask yourself as someone with zero connections to the club whether you care about Liverpool winning a cup you never heard about or being the CL? Would you sign for that club if it were a choice between the FA Cup winners or a team in the CL?

And finally, again i ask do you really think that the past 8 years, in the period after winning the FA Cup and then the Carling Cup a few years later, we have achieved as much as we could of as opposed to where the club would be had we qualified for the CL every season instead? Has the "winning culture" developed as a result of those Cup wins?

I'm not saying i don't care about Cup wins. I'm saying if we continue to qualify for the CL, then the externalities of that are far more beneficial for the club in the long term than winning the two domestic cups this season.

Sorry Crouchie, but unless you have owners that are prepared to spend the extra money generated on top class players, it won't be that way! You believe they will,  but you're in the minority there!

It totally devalues the Champions League that you don't even have to be a champion to get into it anyway,  that's why I think the league cup and FA cup winners should gain entry in place of the 3rd and 4th place teams. That would put the value back into winning the domestic competitions.

If people want to believe that the owners are tight with money then fine but i'll let their actions do the talking for me.

If they were tight with money they would never sanction deals for Lallana, Lovren, Mario, Laz and Alberto etc. When was the last time you saw Liverpool spend >10 million on 7 players in a transfer window? Kind of goes against them not making money available. If they were tight with money would they sanction a 10m pound deal for a teenager to loan him back to his club? The arguments for them being tight are mind boggling when they allow BR and co to spend money on players and get sh*t done with the stadium issue. But then all i'll hear is "net spend" and blah blah blah.

Couldn't give a rats if i'm in the minority here. Most people base their opinion on things they hear and not what they see themselves.

Whether you're in Liverpool or Los Angeles, a Cup loss or a Cup win provides the same euphoria. I've seen grown men and women cry in a pub when we lost to Chelsea in the FA Cup final and i saw people in the crowd at Wembley in Liverpool kits having a giggle with their mates at full time. I really have no idea where you got that crap from that match-goers appreciate trophies more. Everyone enjoys seeing their team win.

Look down the road in 3-5 seasons and ask yourself. What will put Liverpool Football Club in a better position to be the best in the world? Winning the FA/Carling Cup or being in the CL?

Ask yourself as someone with zero connections to the club whether you care about Liverpool winning a cup you never heard about or being the CL? Would you sign for that club if it were a choice between the FA Cup winners or a team in the CL?

And finally, again i ask do you really think that the past 8 years, in the period after winning the FA Cup and then the Carling Cup a few years later, we have achieved as much as we could of as opposed to where the club would be had we qualified for the CL every season instead? Has the "winning culture" developed as a result of those Cup wins?

I'm not saying i don't care about Cup wins. I'm saying if we continue to qualify for the CL, then the externalities of that are far more beneficial for the club in the long term than winning the two domestic cups this season.

You don't get what I'm saying

No worries, I'm not trying to say I'm right and you're wrong. I'll leave it there as you are missing my point.

I don't want to drag it into where fans are from as I don't frankly care where people are from who support the club

If people want to believe that the owners are tight with money then fine but i'll let their actions do the talking for me.

If they were tight with money they would never sanction deals for Lallana, Lovren, Mario, Laz and Alberto etc. When was the last time you saw Liverpool spend >10 million on 7 players in a transfer window? Kind of goes against them not making money available. If they were tight with money would they sanction a 10m pound deal for a teenager to loan him back to his club? The arguments for them being tight are mind boggling when they allow BR and co to spend money on players and get sh*t done with the stadium issue. But then all i'll hear is "net spend" and blah blah blah.

Couldn't give a rats if i'm in the minority here. Most people base their opinion on things they hear and not what they see themselves.

People read different things in different ways, simply because you read it one way again doesn't make you right and others wrong.

People look for 'evidence' to back their own view point.. You are simply doing the same there

You don't get what I'm saying

No worries, I'm not trying to say I'm right and you're wrong. I'll leave it there as you are missing my point.

I don't want to drag it into where fans are from as I don't frankly care where people are from who support the club

You always reply to me with "You don't get what i'm saying". I get what you're saying, i'm saying its nonsense. Match-goers don't appreciate winning more than non-match-goers. Everyone enjoys winning.

People read different things in different ways, simply because you read it one way again doesn't make you right and others wrong.

People look for 'evidence' to back their own view point.. You are simply doing the same there

The evidence i used was actual financial statements, FSG's history and put 2 and 2 together to shape my opinion. Not articles or other people's opinions.

I'm not forcing anyone to believe anything, i'm just saying that eventually the answers to their questions will be revealed and people shouldn't be so short-sighted/impatient regarding the future of this club in FSG's hands.

You always reply to me with "You don't get what i'm saying". I get what you're saying, i'm saying its nonsense. Match-goers don't appreciate winning more than non-match-goers. Everyone enjoys winning.

The evidence i used was actual financial statements, FSG's history and put 2 and 2 together to shape my opinion. Not articles or other people's opinions.

I'm not forcing anyone to believe anything, i'm just saying that eventually the answers to their questions will be revealed and people shouldn't be so short-sighted/impatient regarding the future of this club in FSG's hands.

Because there is no point trying to talk to you , because that's not actually what I meant

I'm not going to get into an argument with you because that's the only way it ever goes with you.

Good luck, you have your opinion and are entitled to it, I won't say it's nonsense because it's not my place.
But I have mine and I don't want to get into a petty argument with you, there is little point

Because there is no point trying to talk to you , because that's not actually what I meant

I'm not going to get into an argument with you because that's the only way it ever goes with you.

Good luck, you have your opinion and are entitled to it, I won't say it's nonsense because it's not my place.
But I have mine and I don't want to get into a petty argument with you, there is little point

I get the point you're making Jon but I feel it's alos maybe a generational thing and many younger fans have grown up with, and maybe buy into, the glamour of the Champions League and how it is 'sold' in the media.

My first vague memory of supporting the Reds is the 86 Cup final and me next more full memory is the 88 Cup Final as I didn't get to see much televised games over here when I was growing up.

To me winning tophies was always what football was all about and I'd take a League Cup win over a top four finish any season no matter what.

Winning a cup is like sex with a new partner, very exciting and something that sticks in your memory and gives you pleasure for ages, qualifying for the CL is like having a crafty w*nk, enjoyable but not something you will remember or be boasting about to your mates 3 weeks later.

If I was sat on the board of directors I would choose top 4 because we all know that money is vital to a club, as a supporter I choose the cups because I watch Liverpool for the pleasure and the excitement of winning things.

I think perhaps if we were stronger and had a good chance of winning the CL my view might be slightly softer, but winning entry to a competition that you are not in strong contention for is not quite the same.

Certainly in the years under Rafa I always felt we were in with a good chance in the CL no matter who we played, Europe was his forte and it showed, but at the moment CL seems more like a money making exercise than a genuine chance to win a trophy.

We came second in the league, qualified for the CL and still lost our best player even after giving him a huge salary, Arsenal have lost loads of their best players after being in the CL every season for years.

I'm just going to be overly ambitious and just say F**k it lets win the lot. I'd happily take an 8th place finish in the league this season if we won the Europa League (if we don't qualify from the group) The League Cup and the FA Cup. There you go 3 pots, the opportunity to win 2 more pots with the UEFA Super Cup and the Charity Shield AND guaranteed Champions League football next season. I'd rather have that 1 000 000 000 000 000 000 times over than see us scrape 4th so we can play the Champions of Liechtenstein in the qualifiers.

I'm just going to be overly ambitious and just say F**k it lets win the lot. I'd happily take an 8th place finish in the league this season if we won the Europa League (if we don't qualify from the group) The League Cup and the FA Cup. There you go 3 pots, the opportunity to win 2 more pots with the UEFA Super Cup and the Charity Shield AND guaranteed Champions League football next season. I'd rather have that 1 000 000 000 000 000 000 times over than see us scrape 4th so we can play the Champions of Liechtenstein in the qualifiers.