Do we struggle winning ugly?

Hoofing is one thing. I don't agree with it as a tatic however Carroll being good in the air is another. We haven't had a threat from corners since Hyppia. Secondly with dribblers like Suarez, Dowing, Enrique and Johnson creating the extra man a lot of balls will be put in the box from  dangerous angles i.e. behind the defence. If Carroll can learn to create a bit of space to attack the ball I think he will be unstoppable personally.

Hoofing is one thing. I don't agree with it as a tatic however Carroll being good in the air is another. We haven't had a threat from corners since Hyppia. Secondly with dribblers like Suarez, Dowing, Enrique and Johnson creating the extra man a lot of balls will be put in the box from  dangerous angles i.e. behind the defence. If Carroll can learn to create a bit of space to attack the ball I think he will be unstoppable personally.

Nowt wrong with a long ball imo

Of course, hoofing is different, and we need to stay away from that.

Reina plays a long ball, Carra hoofs

I think some of the guys get tempted to hoof it when Carroll is in the team. They have to stop that. It's understandable when Reina plays a long ball, though, he's so far at the back!

I notice the failure to come back and win games in the last year or so but back in 2008/2009, we've came back from losing positions like 10 out of 11 times. The only game we went on to lose was against Boro, away. I think in the other 10 matches, we won 7 and drew 3. But of course, that was the other Liverpool side.

We're capable of doing it still but it seems no one really wants to take charge in the last 10 minutes or so.

I think some of the guys get tempted to hoof it when Carroll is in the team. They have to stop that. It's understandable when Reina plays a long ball, though, he's so far at the back!

I notice the failure to come back and win games in the last year or so but back in 2008/2009, we've came back from losing positions like 10 out of 11 times. The only game we went on to lose was against Boro, away. I think in the other 10 matches, we won 7 and drew 3. But of course, that was the other Liverpool side.

We're capable of doing it still but it seems no one really wants to take charge in the last 10 minutes or so.

Just an observation - Reina actually tries to pass it, others just give it some welly.

Just an observation - Reina actually tries to pass it, others just give it some welly.

Agreed, i think Carragher actually pressures him into lumping it forward.

Just an observation - Reina actually tries to pass it, others just give it some welly.

Yeah, that's why I said 'long ball' rather than 'hoof' like you mentioned in the post before mine

I know Carra is a no nonsense defender but still ... he should start looking for someone in Red!

I was thinking exactly the same as this thread while watching the 2nd half of the utd game this morning.  They were fairly poor but kept the pressure on and got the lucky deflected goal. 

On sat we didn't push hard in the last 15 - nobody took the game by the scruff of the neck or did anything to lift the crowd, somthing that all the successful teams do.

It isn't the 6-0s that win titles it's the scrappy 1-0 well into injury time......

One thing you notice with ManU and even with Arsenal playing is they are always attacking the opposition no matter if they are 1 goal up or even 10.Most of the times,this approach results in a win and saves them from dropping two crucial points.However,we took our foot off the pedal as soon as we scored the goal and were then happy to pass the ball backwards and let Sunderland back into the game.It was really frustrating to watch the backward and sideways passing that went on forever after out first goal.I was watching the game with my little bro who is an Arsenal fan.He was impressed with the way we started the game but after we scored the goal he said now you are back to your normal ways.

I can accept this being the first game,may be we took the things a bit lightly and the players need a kick up their asses which I am sure Kenny will oblige with but if this goes on for some more games,we can certainly count ourselves out of the title race.

That is one of the reasons as well.

Notice alot, since previous seasons how we've usually got superior players to the oppositions (many average players before but probably still superior) and yet we can't control the game.

From the oppositions' control of the game, it leads to their chances at goal and more defensive work for us. It shouldn't be like that. We should be the one making them worry.

I think a couple posters got mixed by what I meant by "winning ugly". I don't mean winning while playing an ugly style of football, I meant being able to grind out results with late winners and just by having a winning mentality to drive us forward; even if we're playing poorly.

Something I feel we haven't got, but it's something that can't be brought, it's something that the players must believe in; it's a state of mind, not an attribute IMO.

We lack that desire to push on for a win in the last 15 mins, Sir Alex slur has learnt that important point long long time ago from the great Liverpool sides of the past. Our great sides of the past used to score late late goals to salvage a point or victory but now we're still stroking the ball around with 10 mins left hoping for an opening, this is just inviting a defeat or draw. Carra, don't think I wanna say anything more than what has already been said about him. But him continuing to hoof the ball upwards is going to be very damaging to us, its as good as passing the ball to the opposition without really  creating anything out of it. The scums terrorizes teams inside the opposition box, we used to do that in the 70s and 80s, now we gave the opposition defence too much respect. Give Carroll enough possession of the ball I'm sure he'll be far far more dangerous instead of continuously lumping the ball to him.

Do we lack mentality to win?Yes, we definitely need Stevie back to give some walloping to some undeperformers and show them what Istanbul is all about.

Lack stamina, don't ever mention that we don't pay players 50k to 100k a week for lack of match fitness. Try telling that  to Shankly and one will most probably get strangled. Our great players of the past have enormous energy and stamina  and we're known as the red machine, they keep coming back at you. Why we won so many games late because we out tackled and out run the opposition.

We need more players like Suarez who plays like a raging bull.
One thing I noticed about the scums is they're fast to switch from defence to attack, they have players well placed to do that and they move up the  field fast something really need to look at seriously. What I hope to see in the next game is a few more players with Ba**s to go inside the box more often and not left to Suarez to that

Besides that we need more bodies inside the box to score as we used to do that so effectively towards the end of last season, we can't  rely soley on Suarez and carroll to score.

We lack that desire to push on for a win in the last 15 mins, Sir Alex slur has learnt that important point point long time ago from the great Liverpool sides of the past. Our great sides of the past used to score late late goals to salvage a point or victory but now we're still stroking the ball around with 10 mins left hoping for an opening, this is just inviting a defeat or draw. Carra, don't think I wanna say anything more than what has already been said about him. But him continuing to hoof the ball upwards is going to be very damaging to us, its as good as passing the ball to the opposition without really  creating anything out of it. The scums terrorizes teams inside the opposition box, we used to do that in the 70s and 80s, now we gave the opposition defence too much respect. Give Carroll enough possession of the ball I'm sure he'll be far far more dangerous instead of continuously lumping the ball to him.

Do we lack mentality to win?Yes, we definitely need Stevie back to give some walloping to some undeperformers and show them what Istanbul is all about.

Lack stamina, don't ever mention that we don't pay players 50k to 100k a week for lack of match fitness. Try telliny that  to Shankly and one will most probably got strangled. Our great players of the past have enormous enery and we're knowd as red machine, they keep coming back at you. Why we won so many games late because we out tackled the opposition.

We need more players like Suarez who plays like a raging bull.

One thing I noticed about the scums is they're fast to switch from defence to attack, they have players well placed to do that and the field fast something really need to loook at seriously. What I hope to see in the next game is a few more players with Ba**s to go inside the box more often and not left to Suarez to do that.

I'd agree with that.  I didn't see any urgency or conviction in our play  the last 10-15 mins. Where was the leadership?  We should have been putting that lot under severe pressure and going on the offensive. All I saw was a multitude of hoofs and it was desperate.  No width again as Downing was shifted inside, Look at the hunger of united when they play at home if it's 1-1 with 20 mins to go. They really go for it. U just  didn't see that at all on Saturday

It;s upto the manage to demand it from Carragher to play the ball and stop hoofing it. Frankly , i just think he's incapable. Very poor technically. If we don't get a replacmemt for him i fear for us. The amount of possession he gifts to the opposition

I'd agree with that.  I didn't see any urgency or conviction in our play  the last 10-15 mins. Where was the leadership?  We should have been putting that lot under severe pressure and going on the offensive. All I saw was a multitude of hoofs and it was desperate.  No width again as Downing was shifted inside, Look at the hunger of united when they play at home if it's 1-1 with 20 mins to go. They really go for it. U just  didn't see that at all on Saturday

It;s upto the manage to demand it from Carragher to play the ball and stop hoofing it. Frankly , I just think he's incapable. Very poor technically. If we don't get a replacmemt for him I fear for us. The amount of possession he gifts to the opposition

I'm afraid as long as Carra is in the team, he'll continue to hoof the ball something that he has been doing for a long time. It's difficult to get it out of his system.

What is our game plan here when opposition pack their defence? I'm sure this is how lesser team is going to play against us. We can't be stroking the ball the whole evening trying to find an opening because a team that parked the bus, not that the rules say they can't, what we should do is to learn and adapt fast how to go pass tight defence. Look at the scums, baggies parked the bus, they had the determination to run at the defence and create havoc that resulted in an own goal. That's what we call determination and winning ugly. Sadly, we don;t have that in us yet.

This is a good thread. But this is the kind of thing that a side tweaking their way to the very top worries about so I am not too concerned yet, we've come a long way in a short amount of time and have to get some more basics right first. We don't even play with a consistent squad really, midfield or defense, and attack has obviously changed completely.

I remember the Arsenal game when Carroll came off and we had Luis and then relied on the likes of Spearing Shelvey Lucas Dirk maybe Raul trying to help. No disrespect to these players but it's just that we haven't had real direction, purpose and hunger to pull off what we want to do, we had more freedom and because of our character it paid off and will continue to do so, but we still need to get much better. This is why getting Downing was good because we can already see is his class, he is professional and he knows what to do to get things done and will take it upon himself. Someone in the middle with this hunger is what we have lacked.

I think this is something we've always struggled to do, and although it's a huge cliche, winning when you play bad is the sign of a title winning side.

I'd like to see us win whilst playing badly in 1 or 2 of the first 10 games. 10 games being the point in which I start to take the table seriously.