Houllier v Benitez

With the demand amongst Liverpool fans clamouring for an extension on the contract of Rafa Benitez it struck me about the huge disparity between feelings, at this stage in their progress of the two managers.

Gerard Houllier took full control over Liverpool in the Autumn of 1998.

In the 8 years prior to his arrival it is worth pointing out Liverpool had won 2 trophies. An FA Cup and a League Cup - the most barren spell in the modern history of the club.

During his 300 game tenure as boss Liverpool won 6 trophies (2 League Cups, an FA Cup, a UEFA Cup, a UEFA Super Cup and a Charity Shield).

In the middle of his tenure he recorded Liverpool's third best ever league performance.  Liverpool had won 16 titles in the past performing less well than the season of 2001-02.

Rafa Benitez took full control over Liverpool in the summer of 2004

He has won 4 trophies (Champions League, FA Cup, UEFA Super Cup and a Charity Shield)

During the middle of his tenure he recorded Liverpool's third best ever league performance.  Liverpool had won 16 titles in the past performing less well than the season of 2005-06.


So to play devils advocate, and somebody please help me out, iwhy we're we so glad to get rid of Houllier - yet demanding a huge contract extension for Rafa?

I think the straight forward answer is that in Houllier's last season you could see that the team was going backwards.  It has been slower with Rafa but season on season we are getting better.

I think that is why we should be giving him a new contract.  If we don't there are plenty out there who would be more than pleased to do so.

I think the straight forward answer is that in Houllier's last season you could see that the team was going backwards.  It has been slower with Rafa but season on season we are getting better.

I fully agree with you Oldred.
The team is far better now than it was in the season 2003-2004 .

It was the right time for Houllier to go, durin his reign of six years we never progressed far enough.

Personally I don't think we've progressed far enough in Benitez' first four years. However this season looks different, this season we look a side capable of at least challengin. I've said I'd of waited till the season ended and see where we are, to see if Benitez deserves a contract extension.

Under Houllier post-2002 we were regressing badly. Up until then we were progressing nicely. But then it all went wrong and, for me, the right decision was reached.

By that stage we were poor in the UEFA Cup, and finishing 30 points behind the champions. And this was before Chelsea went up a notch under Mourinho, and before Alex Ferguson put together what he feels to be his best-ever squad. Look at Arsenal to see how Wenger has struggled since those two teams grew in strength. Also, English football's strength can be measured in the progress of its teams every year. Benitez's league win-percentage is far better than Houllier's, but these days it takes even more wins to secure the league. Last season we were 11 points off the title, and currently we are level with the leaders. That suggests progress.

For me, Liverpool have progressed massively under Benitez, but much of it has been lost because of the overall improvements of the English league. Just imagine how well we'd be doing with the squad from 2003/04 - Rafa managed to win the European Cup with them (plus a few of his own men), but there were too many average players. To make matters worse, one of the best ones - Owen - had had enough of the way we were playing and had run his contract down. So Rafa lost a player who was then the only guaranteed source of goals for pittance.

From 2001 onwards, Houllier bought very few good players. Look at the players Benitez has bought since 2006, and on the whole they are so much better. Houllier started out really well, but from 2001/02 onwards, whether from the heart problem or not, he lost the plot.

I also feel that the football is better now - more varied, with better tactics. It'll be a massively tough task to win the league with United and Chelsea so full of mega-expensive players and run by experienced top-class managers, but Benitez has got us in the mix. So while Houllier deserves respect for his early years, I feel Rafa's tenure is only getting stronger and stronger.

I think the straight forward answer is that in Houllier's last season you could see that the team was going backwards.  It has been slower with Rafa but season on season we are getting better.

I think that is why we should be giving him a new contract.  If we don't there are plenty out there who would be more than pleased to do so.

First season Champions League. Lge 58 points
Second season FA Cup Lge 82 points
Third season Nothing Lge 68 points
Fourth season Nothing Lge 76 points

I wouldn't say it was conclusive.  I just find the massive difference in the way one was really set upon by the fans and one who is idolised just a little bit out of kilter with the stats.

Maybe Benitez would be financially better off waiting till the end of the season?  Might get a few more quid if he's won the title?

When Houllier had the likes of Fowler in his prime around the years 1998-2002 he had a good side which won the treble and had some quality.  But then Chelsea got Roman Abromavich, suddenly money was a massive issue in football and by 2004, when the gaffer was about to leave, we were in a total shambles.  We only had 1 or 2 players or real quality, and all the rest were sub-standard.  Then Rafa brought along his "Rafa-lution" and now we have a squad good enough to finally win the league again.  It's been a solid 4 years of criticism, hard work and grinding to get the players he did and in my opinion, he has already outshone Houllier's acheivements, despite two successive trophyless seasons.  YNWA.

but from 2001/02 onwards, whether from the heart problem or not, he lost the plot.

So he lost the plot when guidin us to the cloest we've come to winnin the Premiership?

First season Champions League. Lge 58 points
Second season FA Cup Lge 82 points
Third season Nothing Lge 68 points
Fourth season Nothing Lge 76 points

I wouldn't say it was conclusive.  I just find the massive difference in the way one was really set upon by the fans and one who is idolised just a little bit out of kilter with the stats.

Maybe Benitez would be financially better off waiting till the end of the season?  Might get a few more quid if he's won the title?

OK.  I'll just use my favourite quote.

There are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics.

I don't care what we have won or when we won it, the team has got progressively better year on year.  You can't ask for anymore than that.

If we keep improving the trophies will follow.

by 2004, when the gaffer was about to leave, we were in a total shambles.  We only had 1 or 2 players or real quality, and all the rest were sub-standard. 

You can't deny that 9 of his players went on to lift the Champions League the next season though.  No matter how much tactical work went in they really can't have been that sh*te?

Some cynics may say Houllier's team won the Champions League in Istanbul and Rafa's side lost it in Athens?  But that would just be the cynics.

So he lost the plot when guidin us to the cloest we've come to winnin the Premiership?

I said more-or-less what you said, that the time was right to go. I also said he did extremely well to start with, so not sure what you're getting at?

As for 2001/02, Houllier missed a large chunk of it through illness. Clearly it was a fine achievement, but the slump from 2001/02 was rapid and depressing. He broke up an experienced side, and bought young players who weren't up to it.

Interesting where you said earlier about in 2003/04 we only had one player - Owen - capable of banging in the goals.....  some things never change it seems then.

He made some bad buys after the 2002 World Cup - no question.  Let's see how Keane pans out.

You can't deny that 9 of his players went on to lift the Champions League the next season though.  No matter how much tactical work went in they really can't have been that sh*te?

Where are Biscan, Baros, Traore and plenty of the others now? There were some decent players, but not in the class of the squad we have now. Rafa initially added a couple of poor players to that squad, but also two crucial ones.

On paper, that was a massively average team, as the league performances showed. And much of the success was down to Luis Garcia and Xabi Alonso.

As for 2007, we deserved to win that final, whereas we were outplayed for 80% of the game in Istanbul. Also, we won nothing in 2007 but made that Champions League Final, and in 2008 only failed to reach the final in extra-time of the semi-final. The picture as a whole is better under Benitez than it was between 2002 and 2004.

Rafael Benítez is arguably the best manager we've had since Dalglish. This man knows exactly how to attack, defend and use the midfield to its utmost potential. He can get the best out of his players, and has built the best squad Liverpool have had for ~15 years - on a VERY limited budget.

How many others can do that? Could Fergie? No. Could Mourinho? He did with Porto, but the EPL is a much tougher League to compete in.

but the slump from 2001/02 was rapid and depressing.

That's what I'm gettin at. 2001/02 was not a slump. It was the closest we've come to winnin the league, it's the only time we've finished in the top since the turn of the centuray and it was Houllier's side.

I wouldn't describe Benitez as working on a limited budget Res.

I just wonder if Xabi Alonso hadn't put in that equaliser in Istanbul... I wonder if Benitez would be demanding contract talks of his employers at this point?

Where are Biscan, Baros, Traore and plenty of the others now?

That's not really a valid question though.  It was 4 seasons ago and they were arguably at their peak at the time.  I could ask you exactly the same thing of Michael Owen. 

You failed to mention some of the other players such as Cisse, currently in the Premiership, Hamann, still doing a job for City, Smicer - a talent no doubt who didn't adapt to the Premiership (as also neither did Garcia), Hyypia (still capable of doing a job for Liverpool), Finnan (edged out - many say unfairly to Spain), Riise (at one of Italy's biggest clubs).

Interesting where you said earlier about in 2003/04 we only had one player - Owen - capable of banging in the goals.....  some things never change it seems then.

Part of why forums piss me off is the semantics! I said Owen was the only *guaranteed* source of goals (meaning in any quantity above 10), which is different to the only one *capable*. Clearly you're harking back to my post about Torres, when I argued your point about him being our only natural goalscorer.

Last year we had six players in double figures, and since then we've added Robbie Keane, who I said had almost 200 career goals. Keane has proved over the years to be a 15-20 goal a season player, more prolific than Emile Heskey, for example, but we have to give him time to settle in.

Steven Gerrard is far more prolific than Danny Murphy, who was Houllier's top-scoring midfielder. Ryan Babel is more prolific than anyone on the flanks in Houllier's whole time (Berger had a couple of 9s, Barmby an 8, and Riise had similar amounts. Babel got 10 last season, and was a sub more often than not). Houllier had some good goalscorers between 2000 and 2002, but then he sold most of them.

Xabi Alonso is twice as prolific as Didi Hamann. Add Kuyt and Benayoun, and you have two players who will score more for us than players like Diouf and Cheyrou were!

Last year we also had two who scored more than 20, and one who scored more than 30. Indeed, if you look at his record, Steven Gerrard scores almost as many goals for Liverpool under Rafa as Owen did under Houllier. Owen averaged about 21 a season and Gerrard averages about 18 a season under Rafa. Both boosted their tallies with penalties, of course.

I'd fancy us to score more without Torres now than we could have without Owen in 2003/04. The difference is that while Torres is our best source of goals now, by 2003/04 we were far more reliant on Owen.

Any team will miss their best striker, and I reiterate that, but while Torres is better than Owen ever was, I feel we missed Owen more back then if he wasn't playing.

That's what I'm gettin at. 2001/02 was not a slump. It was the closest we've come to winnin the league, it's the only time we've finished in the top since the turn of the centuray and it was Houllier's side.

Again, semantics. The slump was from 2001/02; I meant from the end of the season, not including it. I've acknowledged that that season was a success. Maybe I wasn't clear in my first post, even though the context should have made it so, but in my reply I was crystal clear.

Go read 'Dynasty' if you want my full in-depth opinion on both managers, without people nitpicking between what I've said  

Let's hope that Benitez wins a trophy this season then because I'm not sure any Liverpool manager went three seasons without landing a trophy in the last 50 years and continued in their job?

And that is, after all, the reason the club exists.

That's not really a valid question though.  It was 4 seasons ago and they were arguably at their peak at the time.  I could ask you exactly the same thing of Michael Owen. 

My point is that they've hardly had great careers, have they? If they were at their peak in 2004/2005, then I'd rather have Mascherano and Torres, et al, at their peak now. There's no comparison. Hamann is 35 and still going strong, and Owen would be too but for injuries; these are class acts. Traore, Biscan and Baros didn't suffer career-threatening injuries, they just weren't quite up to the required standard, and the same applies to a few others.

Benitez has bought some world-class players. Plenty of the players he won the Champions League with were not in that bracket. I liked Biscan and Baros, and Smicer, and plenty of others. But they wouldn't get anywhere near this team now, even if they were at their peak, and rightly so.

We had a great run in 2005 as the surprise package, the plucky underdogs. It got much harder in many senses once teams started taking us seriously again. We were clearly a much better side in 2007, but whereas we had some luck in the 2005 final we had none in 2007.

Let's hope that Benitez wins a trophy this season then because I'm not sure any Liverpool manager went three seasons without landing a trophy in the last 50 years and continued in their job?

Bill Shankly, 7 seasons. 1966 to 1973.

Bill Shankly, 7 seasons. 1966 to 1973.

I did know that.  I just wanted to see if you would post it.

Let's hope that Benitez wins a trophy this season then because I'm not sure any Liverpool manager went three seasons without landing a trophy in the last 50 years and continued in their job?

And that is, after all, the reason the club exists.

Houllier won the League Cup in 2003, but I'd rather have a better all-round season than a sh*te one and pick up a minor gong.

Ditto Roy Evans - I much preferred 1995/96 when we won nothing but looked a strong side capable of challenging for trophies, than the season before, when we weren't as good but won the League Cup. So you have to look at the bigger picture. Unless it's the league or the European Cup, I feel it's better to be a strong side heading in the right direction and be empty-handed than be like Spurs last season, terrible in the league but winning a little cup.

I also think it's harder now because of Chelsea - there has never been a team like them. They take up a place at the top of the table that once belonged to Arsenal or Liverpool. They've 'bought' that slot like someone buying real estate in Mayfair. Bob Paisley or Bill Shankly never had to face any team so much richer than Liverpool (and Houllier only had to for 10 months, before they had a top class manager), and again, these are all points analysed in length in Dynasty.