Houllier v Benitez

Last year we had six players in double figures, and since then we've added Robbie Keane, who I said had almost 200 career goals. Keane has proved over the years to be a 15-20 goal a season player, more prolific than Emile Heskey, for example, but we have to give him time to settle in.

Emile Heskey's first full season ended in 22 goals, more than Kuyt, Bellamy, Crouch, Morientes, Fowler's return or Voronin managed in a single season. Then Houllier started shiftin Heskey out wide, very much like Benitez has with Kuyt.

Steven Gerrard is far more prolific than Danny Murphy, who was Houllier's top-scoring midfielder.

Possibly due the fact that Stevie now has a free role to do whatever he likes and for large periods of Benitez' reign has been played as a second striker anyway, as well as being arguabally Liverpool's finest ever player.

Indeed, if you look at his record, Steven Gerrard scores almost as many goals for Liverpool under Rafa as Owen did under Houllier. Owen averaged about 21 a season and Gerrard averages about 18 a season under Rafa. Both boosted their tallies with penalties, of course.

Considerin Stevie is now in his prime and Owen was still very young in Houllier's first few years, the averages should be relatively similar. Owen was very injury prone (unfortunately) so didn't have half as many games as he should of. Also Gerrard has much more to his game, which means he can score from pretty much anywhere on a football field, whereas Owen was, is and always will be a man for the 18 yard box.

Go read 'Dynasty' if you want my full in-depth opinion on both managers, without people nitpicking between what I've said  

Have read it, in fact I owned a copy of it till I gave it to me cousin who wrecked it. Still whoopty do, you've released a book or two, want a round of applause?

Part of why forums piss me off

No one puts a gun to your head and says you have to use them.

they just weren't quite up to the required standard, and the same applies to a few others.

But the likes Dossena, Aurelio, Lucas, Benayoun, Kromkamp, Bellamy, Morientes, Voronin, Carson, Pelligrino, Paletta, Pennant, Nunez, Josemi and Keane are? I means that's why flawless Benitez bought them right?

I also think it's harder now because of Chelsea - there has never been a team like them.

Apart from United who beat them to both the title and the Champions League last season.  Chelsea are no more a team of superstars than the 'Ultras' at Madrid were.  Just a bit more coach-inspired than chairman-inspired transfers.

I don't disagree that Benitez side is better - that was the discussion I was intending to have.  I feel like amongst Liverpool fans Houllier never gets the recognition he deserves.  The club exists to win trophies - however much you analyse the last 18 years the fact is we didn't win the title.  Whether we finished 10th or 2nd, whether we finished 30 points or 9 points behind - it all blends in to pretty much nothing if you don't win it.

In 20 years time people won't turn round and say, Istanbul was good but when we played in Athens, that was great, because we had a much better side.

You mentioned Shankly before when I asked about our last barren spell of this length with the same manager, a man who inherited a second-rate Liverpool side bumbling around in the second division.  First off he produced a side which turned Liverpool in to a team of Champions from the ground up, the 'barren spell' was when he was creating a brand new team of not only Champions but the foundations of a team that would dominate Europe for the best part of a decade.

But the likes Dossena, Aurelio, Lucas, Benayoun, Kromkamp, Bellamy, Morientes, Voronin, Carson, Pelligrino, Paletta, Pennant, Nunez, Josemi and Keane are? I means that's why flawless Benitez bought them right?

So what you're saying is you thought Gonzalez, Barragan, Zenden, Ajdarevic and Leto were excellent signings?

So what you're saying is you thought Gonzalez, Barragan, Zenden, Ajdarevic and Leto were excellent signings?

Lets compare them to Traore, Biscan and Baros

raffa is far better than houlier so we just have to improve

?
Let's hope that Benitez wins a trophy this season then because I'm not sure any Liverpool manager went three seasons without landing a trophy in the last 50 years and continued in their job?


And that is, after all, the reason the club exists.

JD - I know you are playing devil's advocate to some extent, but........

 In one context, the statement. 'That's the reason the Club exists, to win trophy's', is something many fans wouldn't argue with. However, to lay that statement in amongst...'Let's hope that Benitez wins a trophy this season then, because I'm not sure any Liverpool manager went three seasons without landing a trophy in the last 50 years and continued in their job'  is dangerous logic in my opinion.

No trophy after X amount of years = sacking.Regardless of the progress of team, strength of other premiership teams, or even the sort of quality of player(Torres)he has brought to the club. This is the logic of the suits and the money men who would have the likes of Klinsmann at the club. And where the hell would we be then?

Yes there is pressure to succeed but the club could also shoot itself in the foot.

The Liverpool way is winning but it's also to conduct itself in a manner which, in my opinion, doesn't make rash judgements that leads to multiple change overs of managers such as (Newcastle and Spurs to name but a few )and therefore leaving no secure foundation.

I liked Houllier alot and Roy Evans. Both good men and good managers but quite honestly I think Rafa is in a different league. His record speaks for itself. I doubt if there are any clubs out there that wouldn't want his services.

Something tells me we won't really be able to see the impact Rafa has had on this club until he's gone. Yes, we can count the silverwear he brings but ask yourself what other legacy can a manager leave the Club? I want Liverpool to win everything in sight but I also want to keep it's sense of tradition and integrity. With Rafa, we have alot going for this Club. Maybe some of the decisions he is making now will mean trophy's in the future? To me the foundation under Rafa is very strong ( Considering the current owners ). Houllier seemed to lose the plot at the end.
 Rafa's thinking long term and not only in the form of a new contract. I sometimes wish the fans could share his vision too.

In one context, the statement. 'That's the reason the Club exists, to win trophy's', is something many fans wouldn't argue with. However, to lay that statement in amongst...'Let's hope that Benitez wins a trophy this season then, because I'm not sure any Liverpool manager went three seasons without landing a trophy in the last 50 years and continued in their job'  is dangerous logic in my opinion.

No trophy after X amount of years = sacking.Regardless of the progress of team, strength of other premiership teams, or even the sort of quality of player(Torres)he has brought to the club. This is the logic of the suits and the money men who would have the likes of Klinsmann at the club. And where the hell would we be then?

Yes there is pressure to succeed but the club could also shoot itself in the foot.

The Liverpool way is winning but it's also to conduct itself in a manner which, in my opinion, doesn't make rash judgements that leads to multiple change overs of managers such as (Newcastle and Spurs to name but a few )and therefore leaving no secure foundation.

I liked Houllier alot and Roy Evans. Both good men and good managers but quite honestly I think Rafa is in a different league. His record speaks for itself. I doubt if there are any clubs out there that wouldn't want his services.

Something tells me we won't really be able to see the impact Rafa has had on this club until he's gone. Yes, we can count the silverwear he brings but ask yourself what other legacy can a manager leave the Club? I want Liverpool to win everything in sight but I also want to keep it's sense of tradition and integrity With Rafa, we have alot going for this Club. Maybe some of the decisions he is making now will mean trophy's in the future? To me the foundation under Rafa is very strong ( Considering the current owners ). Houllier seemed to lose the plot at the end.
 Rafa's thinking long term and not only in the form of a new contract. I sometimes wish the fans could share his vision too.

That's all good and well mate, and yes we do need a solid foundation, which has been being rebuilt since the day Souness left.

But as I constantly ask how long can we persist with Benitez? Can we go another 5 years without a trophy and say "ah it's alright he brought Torres in, he built the besy youth side in the country and he won us the champions league in 05. What more can you ask for?" Or is there an actual time limit where we say, "sorry Rafa you've gone as far as you can with us. No trophy now in 7 years, time to go seperate ways."

That's all good and well mate, and yes we do need a solid foundation, which has been being rebuilt since the day Souness left.

But as I constantly ask how long can we persist with Benitez? Can we go another 5 years without a trophy and say "ah it's alright he brought Torres in, he built the besy youth side in the country and he won us the champions league in 05. What more can you ask for?" Or is there an actual time limit where we say, "sorry Rafa you've gone as far as you can with us. No trophy now in 7 years, time to go seperate ways."

Yes I guess there's a time limit. I would bet my life though that in 5 years time he would of won a significant amount of silverwear.

I guess it's all down to progress. Are we going forward?  I think we are and there's more to come I'm sure.

I guess it's all down to progress. Are we going forward?  I think we are and there's more to come I'm sure.

Are we as far forward as we should be? In my opinion not yet.

Let me tell you why I started this topic.

First off, I want Benitez to succeed more than anyone.  I genuinely think he is our best manager since we last won the title.

But.

With all this contract talk now - we could well, for all we know, end the season another 15-20 points behind the leaders for all we know, and be arguably in an identical situation to after Houllier's years.  Except our manager will have a long 5 year contract.

Unless you haven't noticed we're not exactly flushed with cash.

I was just trying to understand the difference between the fans feelings towards Houllier and Benitez.

rafa has the VERY BEST tactical brain in the premiership
we have had a much smaller budget than scum and chavs even arsenal pre americans
rafa has worked some tactical miricles,
people moan about rotation, and maybe they have a point, but we always look fresh at the end of the season and injuries dont effect us like others because of this

i think houllier lost something in his last years with us...his later signing were appauling.

I was just trying to understand the difference between the fans feelings towards Houllier and Benitez.

25.5.05

i don't think its about managers, both good , its about who plays the manager picks the team its the team that has to get the result  and if they don't put all their efforts in to the game there nothing a manager can do about that i think we've a better chance of winning the league now because the players and staff both know how important it is to all fans we've waited to long i just hope this is our year and for the next 19 years to come

25.5.05

I think you could be right.

I'd like to go back to what OldRed was saying.

We were simply going backwards with Houllier. That's how I feel. Not to mention he was losing his mind....

I'm not going to rely on stats or comparing win percentages. Just what I see with my own eyes.

Houllier deserves a lot of credit for bringing us out of the 'dark ages'. There's no doubt about that. He had a vision for Liverpool Football Club to be up at the top and he had his own way of getting us there. One thing that always stands out for me around the beginning time of Houllier's reign, is big Sami Hyypia. And that signaled the managers intent for me when I look back on things. We gave a good fight and would probably be the most hard team to beat. But that was the thing.

I'd be interested to know what people would feel about Houllier if he wasn't blessed with a young hungry scouser going by the name of Gerrard. Because there's no doubt about it for me, he has pulled many a Houllier team out the sh*t when the results mattered.

Rafa comes in and ships Murphy out. Brings Alonso in. There's no contest for me there. To get us back on the upward march we had to make the engine room strong. We had Carragher and Hyypia in defence, plus Gerrard to build on. The intent of Rafa for me was to create and not defend.

I'm not denying Rafa has made some poor additions to the first team. Because he has.

But what I've seen for myself in ten years of LFC football, I think the last four years have more intent than safety. And at this point in time, I do not think we are going backwards as a squad.

A certain youngster named Gerrard has pulled Rafa out the sh*t as well lets not forget.

If it wasn't for him Rafa may well not have any trophies in the cabinet, so you've got to be fair to Gerard on that.

Personally, I think Gerard had the beating of Rafa in the attacking sense of play.  Benitez has made us much harder to beat no question.  But it took him 3 years to replace Houllier's defence.  Carra and Hyypia are both Houllier relics.  Only the fact that Hyypia's knocking on has meant that Rafa had to get Skrtel and Agger.

I've said it before, on here and off here, playing 4-5-1 at home or even away against all but the three best teams in the lands is an absolute joke for any Liverpool side.  The fact we have only one striker who appears capable of scoring goals freely is also a testament to some terrible transfer decisions.

A certain youngster that was Gerrard pulled Houlliers side out of the sh*t on many more occasions than a mature Gerrard has with Benitez I feel though. I think we've had a bit more brains in the engine room and I certainly think we play more as a team as we ever did under Houllier. The passing might not be good sometimes but there's certainly an attempt to pass the ball and use the whole pitch.

And true, Hyypia and Carragher might be relics of Houllier, but Carragher was the left back...or right back, back then.

I agree about the 4-5-1 thing. It's criminal to see that at home for starters. I've already said I feel there's more intent with Rafa. Let's see if I'm proved wrong tomorrow.

I'm in the Benitez camp on this matter, I believe he's a better tactical manager and has a better vision of where the club should be going in the long-term than Houllier had. That being said, things aren't all rosy, and I aren't one of those die-hard fanatics either, who back him blindly.

Benitez has his faults, as do all managers, but I believe that in the (relatively) short period of time he's been at the club the squad has improved. People quickly point to his less successful signings, but at the end of the day he brought us Torres and Mascherano, two players who could literally get into any side in the world. And in my opinion, the team as a whole has a higher level of quality throughout, which reflects in our results. We are consistently finishing high in the EPL, and reaching the closing stages of the Champions League.

I do think the majority of his popularity comes from the victory in Istanbul, but he reached another final, and a semi-final. We believe we can win it every year, and it is this renewed belief that he has brought to the fans that makes him so close to our hearts. We are a force again, to be feared, which is exactly what we should be.

There is room for improvement, however. For example, Benitez arrived at the club when four English teams were able to qualify for the Champion's League, making it "easier" for him to do so. That being said, the fourth qualifying spot was based on the high level of competition in the Premier League, but as we were one of the biggest clubs anyway, I still think this was an advantage for him. Perhaps Houllier would have done better if "his" Liverpool could have qualified from fourth spot, but as we weren't reaching the final stages of the UEFA Cup every season under him, I think it's fair to say our CL progress would have been similar: turbulent and unreliable.

He hasn't won the Premiership yet, but I don't think it's a reason to fire him. I do understand it's more complicated than that - as JD has highlighted, if our season goes tits-up and Rafa has signed a new, long contract, things would look different. However, the consistency (season by season, in all competitions) convinces me that despite his flaws and occassional strange tactics, Benitez is the best manager we could have at the moment and deserves to stay.

Both managers for sure have had their good points and bad points.

Rafa made us difficult to beat. He brought in players who made the 'best Liverpool squad' i've ever seen since i supported this club. Although he gets it wrong in certain situations, i think he's brining the club forward. Things are looking really bright this season. We are at a good position in the league and we've been reaching the semi finals of champions league every season(except 2005/2006) Benitez has been in charge, including 2 finals in 3 years. Good manager and a nice person. At least he doesn't talk like Wenger or Mourinho and haven't seen him get fined by FA like S.A.F.

Houlier brought us the Treble(minus the Premiership) in 2001. And it was awesome cause we won a handful of trophies. I didn't pay much attention to the Liverpool play that time as i was really young so i can't say much about this man. But for sure, he's been a good figure in LFC as Stevie stated in his book. The only part that was disappointing to me were some of his buys. I think his best buy... Sami. Cisse was decent but he just lacked something.

We always have to give a manager time to show his time. If we're always sacking managers after each season like some clubs, we'll never go anywhere. This is due to the fact that every manager wants to build his own team and his own players. So when the next one comes in, he wouldn't want the players the last manager bought.

Houllier did a good job but he took the team as far as he could and no doubt about it we were startring to go backwards when he signed players like Diouf on the strength of one good game for Senegal in the world cup,and Diao,players simply not good enough for Liverpool.I totally respect what Gerard achieved but i really do believe when he had his heart problem,he should have stepped down and looked after his own intrests and not the club`s. 
You could argue it was Houlliers team that won in Istanbul,but Rafa got the best out of a limited team to win that final and we should have won in  Athens in 2007.
We are getting better under Rafa,he has made a couple of bad buys but overall the players he has bought have been excellent and he will deliver the title.

to me the main difference between the two was that when houllier took sole charge of the team we were in a bad way.  because of this his progress was easier to measure, as the improvements he made to the team yielded trophies after such a barren spell.  this way the progress was much easier to see.  however once he got the team to a certain level the progress he was making seemed to grind to a halt, and the teams progress, which had been clear for all to see, didn't have the quality to make that final push for the elusive league title.

as for rafa, yes he has had the success of istanbul, were he established himself as one of the most tactical aware managers out there, but his progress is much harder to measure.  the reason for this is houllier had re-invented the team and got them to a level that was almost there, but not quite.  because of this, rafa inherited a much better team from houllier than houllier did from roy evans.  i think rafa is making definite progress, but it is much slower compared to houlliers progress.  i believe it was easier for houllier to make his initial progress because the situation was so bad, that the only way was up.

i know this sounds like a load of waffle.  but let me try to qualify it.

houllier took us from being a d grade student to a b grade student
rafa is trying to take us from a b grade student to an a grade student.

the latter requires much greater time and patience, but the rewards will be much greater in the end.

roll on number 19.

A certain youngster named Gerrard has pulled Rafa out the sh*t as well lets not forget.

If it wasn't for him Rafa may well not have any trophies in the cabinet, so you've got to be fair to Gerard on that.

Personally, I think Gerard had the beating of Rafa in the attacking sense of play.  Benitez has made us much harder to beat no question.  But it took him 3 years to replace Houllier's defence.  Carra and Hyypia are both Houllier relics.  Only the fact that Hyypia's knocking on has meant that Rafa had to get Skrtel and Agger.

I've said it before, on here and off here, playing 4-5-1 at home or even away against all but the three best teams in the lands is an absolute joke for any Liverpool side.  The fact we have only one striker who appears capable of scoring goals freely is also a testament to some terrible transfer decisions.

i dont think hooly ever played jamie as a centre back though