Stoke v Liverpool: Match thread

I F***ing hate teams like Stoke, that sit back for the majority of the game to freeze us out.

Just dragging this back up because Court I really don't get it. Do people really expect Stoke to come and try to play football against a side like Liverpool? Stoke's qualities are their height, physical nature and of course Delap's long throw. They play for set pieces, it's what their side is designed for. Stoke know they can't beat Liverpool in terms of football quality, our players are far too superior technically for them to even try. They have to try and work out a way to stop Liverpool and all credit to them, they did.

It surely doesn't matter.
A fan is a fan, no two ways about it, they still support the team regardless of whether or not they've seen Liverpool land the title or not.

The reason I pointed it out is because those who have seen us win it realise that it's a marathon.  That teams can draw at the likes of Stoke and still cruise to titles.

A lot of ppl have had the knives out on Rafa's selection against Stoke - but as I've said - it was practically the same team as annihilated Newcastle 5-1 barring two enforced changes due to injury and international duty.

Some people have criticised his rotation in the past but here he was keeping a strong line-up from a team that played magnificently well.  Torres wasn't fit enough to last the full game hence the reason he played 30 mins and as for those calling for Keane as some sort of saviour - I'm just wondering which Liverpool games you've been watching this season.

Stoke had a job to do, which was stop us playing. They did that. It's exactly what I expected from them and they fought and scrapped and got their point. Well done to them.

Our job was go there, break them down and get back with 3 points and we didn't do that. We lacked fight and the hunger to win the game. We had an off day but we move on.

There's no point dwelling on this result. The title wasn't won or lost over this weekend, maybe it was made harder but winning number 19 is still within our capabilities.

Let Manure take the headlines, we'll quietly go about our business and let people write us off. I don't care. We revel in the role of underdogs.

My main point is whatever people say about 'this result is not title winning form blah blah blah', ignore them.

In my eyes, the season's only just begun.

The reason I pointed it out is because those who have seen us win it realise that it's a marathon.  That teams can draw at the likes of Stoke and still cruise to titles.

A lot of ppl have had the knives out on Rafa's selection against Stoke - but as I've said - it was practically the same team as annihilated Newcastle 5-1 barring two enforced changes due to injury and international duty.

Some people have criticised his rotation in the past but here he was keeping a strong line-up from a team that played magnificently well.  Torres wasn't fit enough to last the full game hence the reason he played 30 mins and as for those calling for Keane as some sort of saviour - I'm just wondering which Liverpool games you've been watching this season.

I hear what you're saying, JD, but they are two totally separate games.  Newcastle at St James' were always gonna come at us, making space for us to exploit.

Stoke were always gonna park a bus so should have had a team to break that down.  IMO (obviously not as informed as Rafas) I didn't feel we needed two holding midfielders.

I've read that we are on a similar points total to the last time we won the league - brilliant, the only problem is that the other teams around us are that much better these days.
When we won in '90 we had 79 points - Manure won the league last season with 87 despite having less games to play.  In fact our 79 points would have won the Premier League only once or twice - in '97 Manure won with 75 and we would have been on the same points as them in '99 (not sure which had the best GD).

It's a whole different standard now - in '06 we gained 82 points (our highest PL total) and finished 3rd.

The reason I pointed it out is because those who have seen us win it realise that it's a marathon.  That teams can draw at the likes of Stoke and still cruise to titles.

There's a few who haven't seen us win titles who realise it's a marathon as well. There's some who haven't seen a Liverpool captain lift the league title but still haven't ruled out a possible title winning side this year just because of this result.

A lot of ppl have had the knives out on Rafa's selection against Stoke - but as I've said - it was practically the same team as annihilated Newcastle 5-1 barring two enforced changes due to injury and international duty.

It may have been pretty much the same side that tore Newcastle apart but there's one huge difference, Stoke are not Newcastle. They are two different sides who posses different qualities. We need someone who could stand up to the physical side of Stoke, I don't think we did in an attacking sense. I keep saying it but Dirk Kuyt is not able to play up top on his own, it's that simple. He didn't do a thing against Newcastle when we won 5-1, he didn't do a thing yesterday. That was the only selection problem and it was the same against Newcastle but it wasn't as painfully obvious (to most) because of the result.

Some people have criticised his rotation in the past but here he was keeping a strong line-up from a team that played magnificently well.  Torres wasn't fit enough to last the full game hence the reason he played 30 mins and as for those calling for Keane as some sort of saviour - I'm just wondering which Liverpool games you've been watching this season.

Torres wasn't fit enough to last the game, fair enough he probably wasn't. But he's the only forward we have who can play up top on his own. If we were going to keep to that system against a side like Stoke, we needed a player who could of kept the ball up top. The ball didn't stick in their final third, so it just kept coming back time and time again. Now there's no guarentee we'd of won if Torres started, but I think we can all safely say we'd had a better chance. Get one or two ahead and then bring Torres off at half time. The selection was wrong for the forward role and always will be if it's one up top where Kuyt/Keane/Babel/Ngog is the lone forward.

The reason I pointed it out is because those who have seen us win it realise that it's a marathon.

Ah right, fair enough mate. I thought you were implying they were less supportive.

I do agree, to an extent though. There is alot of knee jerking on here (myself included).

Playing Kuyt up front on his own has everything to do with Benitez. He was non existant against Newcastle, which is why Gerrard was often well ahead of him because he dropped deep and didn't influence the game and yesterday he was non existant again other than that header which he should of burried.

The only selection problem was Kuyt. Lucas was the only replacement for Xabi if we were keeping to Stevie behind the lone forward so I have no problem with the Brazilian's inclusion. But Kuyt up top on his own, just doesn't work. Same with Keane. The ball just kept coming back at us because we had nobody up the field capable of holding onto the ball. That was the lack of quality.

I'm not laying all blame at either Benitez or Kuyt's feet but that was the biggest error from the off and it created problems for us from the word go.

Spot on there DLS Agree with you 100% Most realistic and sensible post i have read in this thread so far

Stoke are not Newcastle.

Indeed.  Up until we lashed 5 past Newcastle - Newcastle had a much more resolute defence than Stoke did.

I see Stoke have around the 4th worst defence in the Premiership.

Torres wasn't fit enough to last the game, fair enough he probably wasn't. But he's the only forward we have who can play up top on his own.

And here we go again.  For the vast majority of 2008 we played with one striker and correct me if I am wrong but we had our best calendar year in the league for decades.

The fact is one up front has got us where we are.

It's hardly Benitez fault that Torres isn't fully fit and Keane couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo.

To turn around and say Keane, or Kuyt, on their own up front doesn't work is just complete and utter bollocks when I take a glance at the league table.

Indeed.  Up until we lashed 5 past Newcastle - Newcastle had a much more resolute defence than Stoke did.

I see Stoke have around the 4th worst defence in the Premiership.

No matter how bad a defence is, when you get 11 people between the ball and the net, and you don't play well, your not going to score against any team

To turn around and say Keane, or Kuyt, on their own up front doesn't work is just complete and utter bollocks when I take a glance at the league table.

Well you said Keane shouldn't play in your previous posts.

We're top of the table and a lot of those games were with Keane up top on his own like you've just said. So why don't you want him to play? Because he can't score, well that means he's useless up top on his own which once again disagrees with you saying 'Keane, or Kuyt, on their own up front doesn't work is just complete and utter bollocks'.

Well you said Keane shouldn't play in your previous posts.

We're top of the table and a lot of those games were with Keane up top on his own like you've just said. So why don't you want him to play? Because he can't score, well that means he's useless up top on his own which once again disagrees with you saying 'Keane, or Kuyt, on their own up front doesn't work is just complete and utter bollocks'.

Please don't put 2 and 2 together and come up with 24.

Firstly, DLS said that our present system is wrong and that one striker up front (when using Keane or Kuyt) doesn't work.   I can immediately think back to Blackburn and Newcastle away we're we slotted 8 goals in using both of these 'ineffective' systems.

Having looked at our league position this season I can conclude that DLS argument is therefore very flaky.

Torres up front P10 W6 D4 = 2.20pts per game
Keane or Kuyt up front P21 W13 D7 L1 = 2.19pts per game

My point is that Keane and Kuyt can play in a 4-5-1 and the reds can get results.

My gripe with Keane at the moment is that he is sh*te and probably wouldn't score in any formation.

Please don't put 2 and 2 together and come up with 24.

Firstly, DLS said that our present system is wrong and that one striker up front (when using Keane or Kuyt) doesn't work.   I can immediately think back to Blackburn and Newcastle away we're we slotted 8 goals in using both of these 'ineffective' systems.

Having looked at our league position this season I can conclude that DLS argument is therefore very flaky.

Torres up front P10 W6 D4 = 2.20pts per game
Keane or Kuyt up front P21 W13 D7 L1 = 2.19pts per game

My point is that Keane and Kuyt can play in a 4-5-1 and the reds can get results.

My gripe with Keane at the moment is that he is sh*te and probably wouldn't score in any formation.

OK, point taken.

I have to say I'm stunned we've got virtually the same amount of points per game with Kuyt/Keane instead of Torres.

To me, it emphasies the the importance of Gerrard's goalscoring abilities.

usually I'm optamistic but seems like every time I get excited about our chances at the league I end up dissapionted and I believe if he puts out our strongest eleven week in week out we still have a good chance but he needs to stop mucking about.

The only point I was trying to make is that when, as you quote you get excited (not enough to post) you do nothing but when we waiver a little you're straight on here making your views public !
if you're true to form we shouldn't see you again 

seriously though, it would be much better to see balanced visits from you when we lose or win not just to have a go at team or manager when the slip up !

Stats, I dont like stats. We had the keeper with the most clean sheets, and the foward with the most goals last season, yet didnt win the leage , thats why I dont like them, no matter how many numbers there are, they rarly add up.

And here we go again.  For the vast majority of 2008 we played with one striker and correct me if I am wrong but we had our best calendar year in the league for decades.

The fact is one up front has got us where we are.

It's hardly Benitez fault that Torres isn't fully fit and Keane couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo.

To turn around and say Keane, or Kuyt, on their own up front doesn't work is just complete and utter bollocks when I take a glance at the league table.

Well how often have Keane or Kuyt had a good game when they've been up top on their own? Kuyt's scored 7 this year, so has Keane. 14 goals between two international forwards in over 50 games between them and you think it works? Fair enough mate, personally I take the stance it doesn't. I can't remember one good game for Keane when he's been up top on his own other than Arsenal, as for Kuyt I can't remember one good game for him since Wigan where he scored twice (being partnered by Keane).

Kuyt's goals in the league:
1 v Man City being partnered by Torres and Keane
2 v Wigan partnered by Keane
1 v Spurs from the right wing
1 v Bolton from the right wing

Keane's goals in the league:
2 v West Brom partnered by Kuyt
1 v Arsenal on his own
2 v Bolton partnered by Kuyt.

Neither can play the lone forward and have been lucky to have a player like Steven Gerrard behind them to constantly bail them out of trouble. As you can said Keane can't hit a barn door but then say "well look at the league table." Well OK look at it, that proves Keane has been a great buy doesn't it because we're top? We're top of the table but that doesn't mean Kuyt or Keane can play the lone role because they can't.

I hate stats too!  There are flaws in every argument and stats, most of the time, don't prove anything.  But I reckon JD has a point.

If you take our first 0-0 this season against Villa, Torres and Keane started.  Albeit Torres went off after 20 mins or something and N'Gog was on. 
Stoke at home 0-0 , Keane and Torres up front again.
0-0 against Fulham, Torres and Keane again.
0-0 against West Ham, Keane and Kuyt up front.

I moaned about Rafa not playing two up front at Stoke yet it hasn't worked at all this season.  Kuyt is definitely not a lone striker by any stretch of the imagination though as proved against Stoke, Hull and even Newcastle when he didn't do much.  I still don't see why he was shifted from the right wing when he started so well and was scoring goals!!  Keane isn't the answer either but is more of a threat on goal IMO proved by all his missed chances.  He just needs to sort that little problem out

I'll give Rafa the benefit of the doubt from now on playing one up top and Gerrard just behind.  It does work, but not with Kuyt   Can't wait to get Torres fully fit.

I think back to watching the game and all I think of is crap service in attack and Kuyt dropping deep or going wide to get the ball.

We all know football is a team game and the service to the front man was poor. Gerrard was, for the vast majority of the game, hurried or pressured off the ball. Reira and Benayoun did not stamp their mark on the game to provide direct width. Babel didn't either when he came on.

So Kuyt was isolated where in other games he might have seen a bit more of the ball in the box. On the few occasions the ball was put into the box while Kuyt was lingering, he had two or three defenders to compete with on his own!! God knows how many times I shouted 'GET IN THE F***ing BOX!!!' to other players.

So he was bound to drop deep or go wide to get involved.

In reflection of strikers playing up front on their own for us having a 'direct' effect on a game, then it's obvious that Torres is the best one for the job. If we play anyone else up on their own then it's vitally important that the team get involved more on the attack. Wide men and midfielders.

That's where we fell short against Stoke and not to mention some really bad sloppy possession. Anyone who watched the game will know that.

I think back to watching the game and all I think of is crap service in attack and Kuyt dropping deep or going wide to get the ball.

We all know football is a team game and the service to the front man was poor. Gerrard was, for the vast majority of the game, hurried or pressured off the ball. Reira and Benayoun did not stamp their mark on the game to provide direct width. Babel didn't either when he came on.

So Kuyt was isolated where in other games he might have seen a bit more of the ball in the box. On the few occasions the ball was put into the box while Kuyt was lingering, he had two or three defenders to compete with on his own!! God knows how many times I shouted 'GET IN THE F***ing BOX!!!' to other players.

So he was bound to drop deep or go wide to get involved.

In reflection of strikers playing up front on their own for us having a 'direct' effect on a game, then it's obvious that Torres is the best one for the job. If we play anyone else up on their own then it's vitally important that the team get involved more on the attack. Wide men and midfielders.

That's where we fell short against Stoke and not to mention some really bad sloppy possession. Anyone who watched the game will know that.

I was shouting the exact same thing RK! Word for word Everytime the ball was crossed in off the ground I wanted to smash my head on the table. I can't believe we we're trying to hit Kuyt (the only man who ever seemed to be in the box, and it's not like he was the tallest player on the field) when there was three Stoke defenders ready get rid of it. So frustrating. I fully expect Torres and Keane to start next monday. Most definitely one of them anyway.

Yes shouting "get in the F***ing box" was what woke the entire household Sunday morning. Very frustrating that one time when Kuyt managed to get possesion in the box and was forced wide by Faye he looked back for a cut back but nobody was in the box, well Stevie was but he was too late and poorly positioned hence Kuyt took the shot.

Funny a winning match thread barely gets 25 pages a losing one and we are over 30 pages we are a hard bunch to satisfy!

The only point I was trying to make is that when, as you quote you get excited (not enough to post) you do nothing but when we waiver a little you're straight on here making your views public !
if you're true to form we shouldn't see you again 

seriously though, it would be much better to see balanced visits from you when we lose or win not just to have a go at team or manager when the slip up !

i'll do my best and i'll to keep on posting especially after we win the derby and beat the cockney's and the manc's and stroll to the league and CL double  we'll let Derby win the fa cup Nigel deserves it after the brace in the 3-3.

All too easy.
Come on the Pool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

thats  the spirit, a positive posting ! I think everyone would like to see/ hear more of your comments good or bad on this .
As previously stated on here there are far too many Rafa bashers who only rear their ugly mugs whgen we slip up !

Well I think I'm over the disappointment now, what a crap game we really MUST do better! we are in such a good position and it all looks like it's gonna just slip away from us just like it always does.  We could have saved this draw once we are like 9 points clear or something. 

I think we played well but not good enough for Stoke's liking, still we didn't lose and we will still be top unless United can win their 2 games in hand (in which case we will be chasing them and hope they will slip up again)