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      Formula 1

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      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Formula 1
      Reply #3726: Apr 15, 2017 05:44:14 pm
      Interesting quali session that.

      Bottas puts it on pole ahead of Hamilton and Vettel. First ever pole for the Finn and well deserved. Shout out to Ricciardo who outqualified Verstappen and Raikkonen and also to Hulkenberg for achieving 7th. The Renault's look a lot more competitive this race, the first time that team has had two cars through to the last round of qualifying since Belgium 2015.
      Keith Singleton
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      Re: Formula 1
      Reply #3727: Apr 15, 2017 06:58:56 pm
      Very interest how Bottas handled it as well. Very calm and collective as if he'd been on pole loads of times. Even though Hammy had a bad  last qualifying lap Bottas never put a foot wrong.
      srslfc
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      Re: Formula 1
      Reply #3728: Apr 15, 2017 10:57:50 pm
      Pleased for Bottas as I'm sure he'd like to have got a pole early in his Mercedes career.

      Still have a feeling about Seb for the race though.
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Formula 1
      Reply #3729: Apr 15, 2017 11:37:31 pm
      Pleased for Bottas as I'm sure he'd like to have got a pole early in his Mercedes career.

      Still have a feeling about Seb for the race though.

      Same here. Mercedes themselves believe they sacrificed qualifying speed for the Grand Prix going for more understeer to protect their rear tyres in the race.

      Mercedes have track position but Ferrari may have the pace. Could be a cracker!
      RedPuppy
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      Re: Formula 1
      Reply #3730: Apr 16, 2017 04:59:08 pm
      So far, this is not too bad.
      srslfc
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      Re: Formula 1
      Reply #3731: Apr 16, 2017 05:43:41 pm
      Seb wins then.

      Fantastic stuff.

      Great drive from Perez as well.
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Formula 1
      Reply #3732: Apr 16, 2017 06:10:32 pm
      Seb wins then.

      Fantastic stuff.

      Great drive from Perez as well.

      So fixated on how Mercedes were trying to avenge for their strategic f**k ups that I didn't see Perez coming through the field until it was mentioned!

      Fully deserved by Vettel. Both he and Ferrari on the same page unlike Mercedes who really screwed their chances particularly in not releasing Lewis who was clearly faster in the laps between Seb's first pit stop and the safety car. If Lewis is the lead car he doesn't need to drive so slowly in the pit.

      It seems all Ferrari have to do is flinch and Mercedes are instantly outmanoeuvred. Serious questions regarding their strategy team. Thought Lewis had the faster car and the pace to win but that's not taking anything away from Vettel. More than fast enough and he and his team called the strategy spot on. Great win.

      Thoroughly enjoyed that race!


      srslfc
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      Re: Formula 1
      Reply #3733: Apr 16, 2017 06:27:27 pm
      So fixated on how Mercedes were trying to avenge for their strategic f**k ups that I didn't see Perez coming through the field until it was mentioned!

      Fully deserved by Vettel. Both he and Ferrari on the same page unlike Mercedes who really screwed their chances particularly in not releasing Lewis who was clearly faster in the laps between Seb's first pit stop and the safety car. If Lewis is the lead car he doesn't need to drive so slowly in the pit.

      It seems all Ferrari have to do is flinch and Mercedes are instantly outmanoeuvred. Serious questions regarding their strategy team. Thought Lewis had the faster car and the pace to win but that's not taking anything away from Vettel. More than fast enough and he and his team called the strategy spot on. Great win.

      Thoroughly enjoyed that race!




      Yep really enjoyed that as well.

      Ferrari all seem on the same page this season and it's great to have a bit more competition than were used to.

      Webber made an interesting point on Williams and how it would be good to see how Alonso would do in that car.
      shabbadoo
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      Re: Formula 1
      Reply #3734: Apr 16, 2017 06:34:37 pm
      So fixated on how Mercedes were trying to avenge for their strategic f**k ups that I didn't see Perez coming through the field until it was mentioned!

      Fully deserved by Vettel. Both he and Ferrari on the same page unlike Mercedes who really screwed their chances particularly in not releasing Lewis who was clearly faster in the laps between Seb's first pit stop and the safety car. If Lewis is the lead car he doesn't need to drive so slowly in the pit.

      It seems all Ferrari have to do is flinch and Mercedes are instantly outmanoeuvred. Serious questions regarding their strategy team. Thought Lewis had the faster car and the pace to win but that's not taking anything away from Vettel. More than fast enough and he and his team called the strategy spot on. Great win.

      Thoroughly enjoyed that race!




      Exit of Paddy Lowe from Merc evident in the last 3 races..

      Great race.
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Formula 1
      Reply #3735: Apr 16, 2017 06:34:39 pm
      Yep really enjoyed that as well.

      Ferrari all seem on the same page this season and it's great to have a bit more competition than were used to.

      Webber made an interesting point on Williams and how it would be good to see how Alonso would do in that car.

      Yeah that was a really interesting point. A strong argument to say that this Williams is a lot better than even what Massa is achieving.

      I hope, sometime in the near future, Williams enter an exclusive partnership with a manufacturer like Audi or similar to their BMW partnership from over a decade ago. That would really propel them I think as opposed to accepting Mercedes power units that are built for Mercedes cars.
      srslfc
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      Re: Formula 1
      Reply #3736: Apr 16, 2017 06:40:40 pm
      Yeah that was a really interesting point. A strong argument to say that this Williams is a lot better than even what Massa is achieving.

      I hope, sometime in the near future, Williams enter an exclusive partnership with a manufacturer like Audi or similar to their BMW partnership from over a decade ago. That would really propel them I think as opposed to accepting Mercedes power units that are built for Mercedes cars.

      Indeed although I wonder if McLarens experience with Honda so far would give them second thoughts?

      One thing I would like to see in F1 is a few more manufactures such as Audi, BMW come in.
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Formula 1
      Reply #3737: Apr 16, 2017 06:42:02 pm
      Exit of Paddy Lowe from Merc evident in the last 3 races..

      Great race.

      Really good point. They have to get real and accept that (A) Bottas isn't going to win the world title and Hamilton is their man. The decision to not release Lewis pre safety car was bizarre. You'd never have seen Brawn allow a situation where the faster driver gets his chances torpedoed at the expense of keeping number 2 happy.


      Interesting that Coulthard said that they're just not adapting to the external battle provided by Ferrari and still treating strategy as tough it's an inter team battle.
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Formula 1
      Reply #3738: Apr 16, 2017 06:51:39 pm
      Indeed although I wonder if McLarens experience with Honda so far would give them second thoughts?

      One thing I would like to see in F1 is a few more manufactures such as Audi, BMW come in.

      Yeah it will be interesting to know whether the Honda experience has left some manufacturers cold. For me I don't think they should.

      The Honda problems are of their own making and a refusal to adapt and open up to the f1 knowledge pool. It's the same insular approach that saw them disgrace themselves in their final two seasons as a fully functioning team in 2007 and 2008 before they left and Brawn bought the team. For those two season they ditched Geoff Willis (who's now at Mercedes) and from what I recall brought in some Japanese bike designer as chief designer. And then they emblazoned those sh*t cars with an awful 'earth' scheme livery. In fairness to Honda they realised their shortcomings and brought Ross Brawn in who shook up the design team which would ultimately design the championship winning Brawn car (albeit with a Mercedes engine - how that car would have fared with a Honda engine is anyone's guess)
      « Last Edit: Apr 16, 2017 06:55:59 pm by Frankly, Mr Shankly »
      racerx34
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      Re: Formula 1
      Reply #3739: Apr 16, 2017 07:36:21 pm
      Loved that race.
      Pressure on Mercedes means any mistake is punished.
      Today it was generator issue meaning Bottas tyre pressures were off at the start of the race.
      That and Lewis playing about on pit entry gave Vettel a nice win, but you have to be in the position to capitalise and too often in the last 3 years there hasn't been another team there to do it.

      GAME ON


      PS

      F**k Honda.
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Formula 1
      Reply #3740: Apr 17, 2017 01:10:09 am
      https://twitter.com/F1/status/853738717713846272

      Williams once again the gold standard when it comes to pit stops.
      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: Formula 1
      Reply #3741: Apr 17, 2017 10:57:22 pm
      3rd race, 3rd time Alonso hasn't finished. His frustrations were clearer than ever and another couple of races like that, I wouldn't be surprised if he tells them to shove it.
      shabbadoo
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      Re: Formula 1
      Reply #3742: Apr 18, 2017 12:48:22 am
      3rd race, 3rd time Alonso hasn't finished. His frustrations were clearer than ever and another couple of races like that, I wouldn't be surprised if he tells them to shove it.

      Think he already as & is swerving Monaco!

      No one to blame except his own poor decision making...

      Any team taking Alonso on would probably hold a view of poisoned chalice... When he departs the teams fortune change ;D
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Formula 1
      Reply #3743: Apr 18, 2017 02:02:49 pm
      Think he already as & is swerving Monaco!

      No one to blame except his own poor decision making...

      Any team taking Alonso on would probably hold a view of poisoned chalice... When he departs the teams fortune change ;D

      You've got to wonder about his team building skills. He burns so many bridges with his attitude. After dethroning Schumacher in 2006 he looked well set to challenge his records but throughout 2007 it became clear that he didn't have the temperament or the interpersonal skills to galvanise a team around him. I read a really great book about Schumacher by James Allen recently and he noted how Michael would always make an effort to get to know the names of all his mechanics and even their families! His relationship with Ross Brawn at Benetton was incredible and naturally Brawn followed Schumacher to Ferrari a year after the German had signed for them. Alonso has never developed that sort of relationship or ethos within a team. He's such an amazing driver but it's a shame that side of him has ruined a career that looked set to be a record breaking career over 10 years ago.
      shabbadoo
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      Re: Formula 1
      Reply #3744: Apr 18, 2017 04:05:52 pm
      You've got to wonder about his team building skills. He burns so many bridges with his attitude. After dethroning Schumacher in 2006 he looked well set to challenge his records but throughout 2007 it became clear that he didn't have the temperament or the interpersonal skills to galvanise a team around him. I read a really great book about Schumacher by James Allen recently and he noted how Michael would always make an effort to get to know the names of all his mechanics and even their families! His relationship with Ross Brawn at Benetton was incredible and naturally Brawn followed Schumacher to Ferrari a year after the German had signed for them. Alonso has never developed that sort of relationship or ethos within a team. He's such an amazing driver but it's a shame that side of him has ruined a career that looked set to be a record breaking career over 10 years ago.

      Communication skill set are sh*te, listening to his radio rants I would hate to be one of those guys in the garage busting a nut to give him a competitive car only to be put down over the airwaves..

      Don't like how he airs his dirty washing in public.. Not the Liverpool Way I'm afraid ;D

      Sneaky feeling Jenson will get more out of the car even if it is just for Monaco.
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Formula 1
      Reply #3745: Apr 18, 2017 05:00:40 pm
      Communication skill set are sh*te, listening to his radio rants I would hate to be one of those guys in the garage busting a nut to give him a competitive car only to be put down over the airwaves..

      Don't like how he airs his dirty washing in public.. Not the Liverpool Way I'm afraid ;D

      Sneaky feeling Jenson will get more out of the car even if it is just for Monaco.

      Who knows - we may be seeing Jenson in more than one Grand Prix this year? Back him to do well in Monaco - he scored points in the last two years so he knows how to drive a complete dog of a car round those streets!
      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: Formula 1
      Reply #3746: Apr 18, 2017 10:36:32 pm
      Communication skill set are sh*te, listening to his radio rants I would hate to be one of those guys in the garage busting a nut to give him a competitive car only to be put down over the airwaves..

      Don't like how he airs his dirty washing in public.... Not the Liverpool Way I'm afraid  ;D

      No different to what Hamilton has done on a number of occasions, and Vettell.

      If anyone who is desperate to compete is given something that isn't performing as well as you had expected it to, or been led to believe it would, then of course you are going to be frustrated. Nothing wrong with airing his frustrations on the radio, it's no different to when a player bollocks another player on the pitch for not doing good enough.
      As for it not being the Liverpool way part; I remember Carra near on decking Arbeloa on the pitch for not doing good enough and nearly costing us a goal, it was passion to keep a clean sheet, nothing wrong with it IMO, no point hiding away in the corner and just going with it and hoping for the best. No different to any other sport so I haven't got a problem with it, shows they have that fight in them.
      « Last Edit: Apr 18, 2017 10:43:30 pm by 7-King Kenny-7 »
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Formula 1
      Reply #3747: Apr 19, 2017 09:03:24 pm
      Time for Mercedes to back Lewis Hamilton. Their refusal to tell Bottas to move over cost Hamilton a good chance at victory. I have no doubt Ferrari would have told Raikkonen to move over swiftly in similar circumstances if Vettel found himself behind before the safety car incident. Toto Wolff and his Mercedes crew on the pit wall have been totally blind and incompetent on race strategy matters. Personally I think he's nothing more than a boardroom lapdog. Let's see if he's capable of handling a title fight that exists outside Mercedes as this year is turning out to be.



      'Mercedes face pressure to back Lewis Hamilton after Bahrain Grand Prix'


      Andrew Benson

      In the wake of Sebastian Vettel's victory in the Bahrain Grand Prix, Mercedes are facing a decision they hoped they would never have to make.

      The manner of Vettel's win, the second in three races so far this season for the Ferrari man, could force them into picking a number one driver, and asking the other to play back-up to his title bid.

      That is what eventually happened in Bahrain, when Mercedes finally - just before half-distance - grasped the nettle and ordered Valtteri Bottas to move over and let Lewis Hamilton by.

      By then, it was too little too late. Vettel had a six-second lead and, despite a valiant charge by Hamilton after a late pit stop, the German won by about the same margin.

      Afterwards, the mood at Mercedes matched the night skies on the Arabian peninsula, and team boss Toto Wolff was already grappling with his conundrum.

      How long before you have to choose one driver to back for the title, he was asked?

      "We don't like that," he said. "At all. It is not what we have done the past couple of years. But the situation is different now. So it needs a proper analysis what it means and where we are.

      "We'd like to give each of them equal opportunity at the start of the race. We owe it to them. Then you see what we did in the race. We made the call. We made the call twice."

      Just as in Australia at the first race of the season, Vettel and Ferrari's victory was based on aggressive strategic thinking and good use of tyres.

      The German, third on the grid, jumped Hamilton off the line - as he was always likely to do from the cleaner side of the grid - and slotted into second place behind Bottas.

      The Finn had taken his first pole position on Saturday. He overhauled Hamilton after what Mercedes said was a rear-end snap in Turn 10 on Hamilton's final lap, but which Hamilton said after the race was largely because the DRS overtaking aid, which boosts straight-line speed, did not engage between Turns 10 and 11.

      Bottas lacked pace in the race. Mercedes said that in the first stint he was hamstrung by high tyre pressures caused by a generator failure on the grid which prevented the team from bleeding out enough air. The result was a five-car queue, comprising Vettel, Hamilton and the two Red Bulls.

      With Vettel stuck, but sensing he had a very quick race car, Ferrari took the initiative, pitting him early on lap 10. There was no point Mercedes following him in - they knew whoever they pitted would come out behind.

      A safety car three laps later gave Vettel what he said was "a heart stop" that he might lose a potential advantage gained in this way for the second week in succession, just as he had in China.

      But a slow stop for Bottas, caused by problems with pit equipment, ensured Vettel retained the lead - and Hamilton delivered his own race another blow by driving too slowly on the way into the pits, trying to give the team time to service Bottas and also prevent Daniel Ricciardo from jumping him. It earned him a five-second penalty. Without it, the end of the race would have been much closer.

      With Vettel now in the lead, and Hamilton stuck behind Bottas, who was still slow despite corrected tyre pressures, the Ferrari began to edge ahead - 1.2secs at the restart, then 1.6, 2.1, 2.3, 2.7, 2.9, 3.5, 4.1, 4.9 etc. Only when Vettel had an advantage of more than six seconds did Mercedes finally make the call for the drivers to swap positions.

      Immediately, Hamilton came back at Vettel, closing to within 4.3secs within five laps before the Ferrari made its second and final pit stop. Mercedes' only hope was to leave Hamilton as late as possible before his final stop. But 19 seconds in 15 laps was always going to be too big a margin to close down.

      Wolff said he didn't think Mercedes lacked race pace, but there was a suspicion within the team that Ferrari had the edge in Bahrain.

      Even so, they might have been able to fend them off without all the various things that went wrong, whether it be failed equipment or questionable decisions Mercedes will analyse in the coming days.

      Arguing over what might have been is one thing, but there is a more fundamental point at play - which is the margins are too tight this season for mistakes to be made.

      Over the previous three years, Mercedes have been dominant enough to be able to allow their drivers to fight with minimal interference. Only in very rare cases - such as when Nico Rosberg's lack of pace in the wet was harming the team's chances of victory with Hamilton in Monaco last year - have they asked one driver to give way.

      This year, it already looks as if they do not have that luxury. And while Wolff is not yet saying they will have to bite the bullet and back one driver - which surely will be Hamilton, given his seniority, greater experience and better start to the season - he is at least accepting it needs to be thought about.

      Mercedes did not act sooner in Bahrain, Wolff said, because it was relatively early in a race so early in the season and was "a tough call". But he was, he added, going away to think about it.

      "I don't want to pre-empt what the consequence will be or if there will be a consequence and what it will mean for the championship," Wolff said. "It is a question Ferrari needs to ask themselves as well."

      Dark desert days for McLaren


      McLaren had a double PR coup in the week running up to the race, with the announcement on Wednesday that Fernando Alonso would race in the Indianapolis 500, followed by confirmation Jenson Button would replace him at the Monaco Grand Prix.

      It did not take long for reality to burst back front of frame, though.

      After a dismal pre-season testing programme, engine partner Honda largely kept reliability under control in the first two races, albeit at the expense of performance, even if Alonso could finish neither despite strong drives into points positions.

      But the inherent fragility of an engine that is said to be about 120bhp off the best was exposed in the heat of Bahrain, with Honda suffering through practice and qualifying no less than three failures of the MGU-H - the part of the hybrid system that recovers energy from the turbo.

      Two of these afflicted Stoffel Vandoorne; one Alonso. But while Vandoorne's were in practice, Alonso's exploded on his first flying lap in second qualifying.

      Unsurprisingly, McLaren's Saturday evening news conference was a depressing place to be.

      An unusually short six minutes of awkward questions and answers elicited little information other than that Honda does not know the cause of the MGU-H failures, although F1 boss Yusuke Hasegawa said it was "possibly" related to the circuit and conditions.

      All three MGU-Hs are destroyed - and each driver has only four for the season before taking a grid penalty. It took a bit of digging afterwards to discover the failure on Alonso's car also trashed his internal combustion engine. Vandoorne suffered another MGU-H failure - the fourth of the weekend - before the race and could not start.

      Back in the McLaren news conference on Saturday, someone asked Alonso whether the driveability of the Honda engine was at least any good. It produced a withering response: "I don't care too much about the driveability if I can't finish a race or a lap in qualifying now."

      The news conference was brought to an end shortly after that.


      Straight afterwards, Hasegawa went to see Alonso. It was a mistake. Alonso directed him into an office and, still visible through the darkened windows, proceeded to have a largely one-sided, animated conversation.

      The Spaniard was very obviously making his feelings clear, albeit in a more controlled fashion than might have been expected in the circumstances.

      "I see you had a bit of a chat with Hasegawa-san," I said to him afterwards. "Yes," Alonso replied. "Always calm. You know me."

      Calm he may be on the outside, but the frustration of driving an uncompetitive car for the third consecutive season is burning inside.

      It boiled over in the race, in which he battled for all he was worth for 11th place with Jolyon Palmer's Renault and Daniil Kvyat's Toro Rosso.

      Alonso said over the radio he had "never raced an engine with less power" - clearly a message for Honda. After observing that Esteban Ocon's Force India had made up 300 metres on him on one straight, he was asked by engineer Mark Temple for his thoughts on a change of strategy. His reply? "Do what you want, man."

      This was not Alonso saying he didn't care. Quite the opposite. He cares very much. As everyone knows, his rightful place is battling at the front. This unsatisfied rage to win is at least partly behind his decision to race at Indy.

      Alonso's McLaren contract runs out at the end of this season and racing director Eric Boullier effectively admitted in Bahrain that the Indy programme - and perhaps a future shot at Le Mans - is an attempt to make staying more attractive.

      As for Alonso, he said that, much as he wants to win the so-called 'triple crown', further success in F1 is his main priority. He wants a competitive car next year.

      How he will get one is unclear. The chances of him going to Mercedes, Ferrari or Red Bull are minimal, which leaves a choice of either staying at McLaren or moving to the fast-improving Renault team.

      McLaren have explored the idea of switching to Mercedes customer engines, as BBC Sport revealed last month, but senior sources say the prospect of that happening have now evaporated.

      McLaren's official position has always been they are committed to Honda; Honda's is it is "100% committed to our future in Formula 1".

      New parts will be tried at this week's test in Bahrain. An engine with an upgrade - albeit a small one - is due at the Spanish Grand Prix next month.

      But if they are going to convince Alonso to stay, Honda needs to find more than small improvements. And it needs to find them fast.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/39616983
      racerx34
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      Re: Formula 1
      Reply #3748: Apr 20, 2017 11:28:56 am
      Their refusal to tell Bottas to move over cost Hamilton a good chance at victory.

      They did tell Bottas to move over.
      It took too long, something we spoke about re Paddy Lowe.
      With Ferrari challenging with a clear No1, Mercedes have tough choices to make.
      If Bottas keeps his speed up it will make things tense pretty quickly.

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