Club Vs Country: Where do you stand?

Morning all,

Here's my first post - all the rest were replies.I want to raise a real issue for football - particularly for England's national side 'cos I'm English-born (but Irish descent) - and also for players of both our clubs who are given the honour of wearing their nation's shirt.

Why is it that among a fair slice of fans of my own team United and among a good chunk of posters on here that any United or Liverpool player selected for England - remember, the absolute goal for any English-born player - is not welcomed?

Know all about injuries possible while away on international duty.....and about the shites who are currently running the England set-up.......and about who pays what in the event of a long-term career-threatener. All that said, why don't you Scouse fans (and those in Mancland who feel the same as you) take great pride in selection for the national side. Not just England but whoever their country of birth is?

Tell you this much, in the old days, 50's to the late 80's you'd daresn't have voiced that anti-national selection opinion anywhere close to your former greats 'cos they'd have ripped your head off.

Hunt, Callaghan, Clemence, Keegan, Hughes, Barnes, Neal, McDermott, Beardsley et al for England

Heighway, Lawrenson, Whelan etc for the Republic

St John, Dalglish, Hansen, Wark etc for Scotland

Toshack, Jones, Rush etc for Wales.

So if your players wouldn't thank you for that view - why do you - and many of your Manc cousins - feel the opposite to the players they adore? 

Although a lot of Reds don’t have an affinity to The England team its not because there less patriotic than any other clubs fans, far from it you only have to look at the amount of Merseysiders serving Queen and country in the armed forces, as I have said in another post the problem for me is Liverpool are my one and only, and going through winning and losing happiness and heartbreak with them it is nigh on impossible for me to get emotionally attached to any other team including my national one.
I have never seen England play as when I was a kid they never travelled North of Watford, I always watched them because they had Liverpool players in the side and I wanted them to do well and for the rest of the country to be envious of our players like on Wednesday night when Gerrard saved the day.
We may not sing god save the Queen at Cup finals but on the other hand you wont hear Argentina ringing round the ground either, the reason Liverpool do have the most envied support in the world is because all reds believe totally in our team if we are three up or three down they will still get unshakeable support, take a look at the idiots who where giving England pelters after twenty minutes the other night and ask yourself would you ever see that at a reds match, no of course you wouldn’t so that tells you the sort of “supporters” England has, well im sorry that’s just not for me and I will always want England to do well in competitions but I wont lose any sleep over them, Liverpool now there a different matter.

Just going on title here.

Liverpool come first all the way

Good topic Johnowhite.

For me I'm with Glenbuck.
It has to be Liverpool all the way, yes good luck to England, but my heart is with a team I will follow through thick and thin.
I think that with England recently, they have ruined the friendlies with wholesale changes during the games and the whole set up run by clueless clowns in the F.A.
I have only been to 3 England games, 2 at Wembley and 1 at City of Manchester, and for me that's enough. - I feel that the passion and emotion you go through watching your team side is almost non existant for you when watching your national side.
For me though, that's my opinion and others may feel totally different.

You cannot question the patriotism of people with the fact that people support Liverpool ( orany other team) and not England, as Glenbuck pointed out a lot of scousers are soldiers as probably other regions of England are too, this is patriotism.

Questioning the selection or tactics of an England manager only show one thing John and that is if people talk about it it's because they feel for it, they are interested in it, especially in England they living it. The other point would be the press, since the 50's and late 80's the coverage of football has been increasing a lot, and international games who used to be the hightlights of football is now not that important compare to the results of your local team that you can see more then ever on TV for example.

 Something else who strike my mind is the quality of football, there are no doubt that the quality of the premiership is far superior of the quality of football that you see with the national side right now and therefore the interest for the national side drops.

Supporting Liverpool more then the national side is because people recognize themselves in Liverpool, maybe not so in the English side plus for the reasons described as above. England  maybe is loosing her identity so much that people go back to what they know is like them, been a scouser is Liverpool been mancunians is united but what is been English?

I don't support England because I'm not English but let's imaging that I would, I would support Liverpool more then England because if I was English born, I hope I would be scouser.

I can't speak for the English, being Austrian, but the phenomenon that fans rather identify with their club than with their country seems to depend on how well a country fares. You don't want  to invest feeling into a sh*t institution, will you? And many countries have gon downhill recently, no matter what the government speakers say.

Back in the sxities and seventies, when I was a kid, listening to the live radio broadcast of every international game was a must. Everybody, old or young, male of female, would sit and listen and get depressed when we lost (usually) and giddy when we won (rarely). Austria's one of the tiny soccer nations of Europe (the only time when we were absolute world class was back in the early 1930s), but that didn't matter. Keeping your fingers crossed for the team, especially when they played our arch-enemy Hungary or the despised Piefkes (=Germans) was sort of moral duty. But those were the days when Austria had overcome her post-war woes and was enjoying a commercial boom, was rapidly modernised, while the Socialists in power saw that all layers of society could partake of the incoming wealth. Briefly, many people had the impression that their lives took a turn for the better. It was easy to love and support your country then.

Switch to the present, and what you see is very much the same as in England. Fans couldn't care less for the national side. I definitely can't any more. Part of the problem is that life in Austria hasn't improved since years, rather the opposite. Infrastructure is deteriorating due to wide-spread privatisation, the government is corrupt and doesn't even bother to hide it and the Socialists have become the stirrup-holders to the shareholding parasites. The other part is that fans have been brainwashed by the all-pervading political correctness that being proud of your country is somethin despicable. Last year's World Cup worked a bit as an an antidote to this ideological crap, but there are still politicos out there (usually women and usually from the left or Catholic) who want to make you believe that doing so much as singing "Immer wieder Österreich!" or yelling "Tempo Magyarok" will put you on a sliding scale back towards the Third Reich.

Identifying with a club on a local base simply seems more rewarding, althought many of the most recent developments in club football - all-seater stadiums and FIFA regulating every aspect of the game (with a tendency towards more restrictions) - are threatening to eliminate the passion from club football, too.

You make some interesting points Eniac, England aren’t anywhere near the underachievers that say Wales or Scotland have been and over the years have qualified for most competitions final stages whilst our Celtic brothers have not. So why do say the Welsh, Scottish and Irish for example get so passionate about there countries fortunes compared to the “who cares” attitude of Liverpool English fans for there national team. Please forgive the generalisation here but a big majority of England fans are either regionalised i.e. Southerners or they follow smaller club sides or teams from the lower leagues like Grimsby and Lincoln and this is the only chance they get to tour Europe .
I have been abroad many times following the reds but would never do the same for England as they have just never appealed to me and I can honestly say even if they where on a par with Brazil for example I still wouldn’t go. Liverpool fans are a unique breed, we have been through a lot we all stick together and were there for each other and I have no doubt I could call on one if I had any trouble whatsoever, I just don’t get that vibe from England.

My earliest memories are all of Liverpool, England don’t enter my thoughts so as you see its not a political thing or trying to be anti-establishment its just the way it is and I doubt many other reds could tell you why its like that it just is.
I must agree with your point about nationalism though, during the world cup flags of the cross of St George were banned in some areas in case it offended anyone also on the 14th March it was St Patrick’s day, and a great day it is when many English also celebrated, ask those same people when St George’s Day is and a lot wouldn’t have a clue because they choose selective nationalism.
Anyway enough of the party political broadcast may I thank Austria for Hans Krankel one of the most underrated footballers ever and also say iam still annoyed with Rapid Vienna for not beating Everton in the cup winners cup final!

So why do say the Welsh, Scottish and Irish for example get so passionate about there countries

Frankly, the Welsh don't sound too passionate when it comes to their soccer national side right now, but that's because Giggs & Co aren't much of a thrill. But if, let's say, Wales qualified for the Euro the Welsh would get into a frenzy, not doubt. I'm not surprised because in football (both soccer and Rugby) they still are a nation of their own, else they are just part of Mrs. Windsor's lap dance troupe.

Don't remind me of the cup final woes of Austrian teams. I support Austria, Rapid's arch-rival, but even we hoped that they would beat the bitters. Blech.

Good topic Johnowhite.

For me I'm with Glenbuck.
It has to be Liverpool all the way, yes good luck to England, but my heart is with a team I will follow through thick and thin.
I think that with England recently, they have ruined the friendlies with wholesale changes during the games and the whole set up run by clueless clowns in the F.A.
I have only been to 3 England games, 2 at Wembley and 1 at City of Manchester, and for me that's enough. - I feel that the passion and emotion you go through watching your team side is almost non existant for you when watching your national side.
For me though, that's my opinion and others may feel totally different.

Yes mate understand what you're saying and to a degree, I feel the same. I'll give you a for instance MrT.

When we first got married we  were liike a lot of others in the 60's - young, babby on the way and skint! We got some lodgings close to City's ground in Moss Side and every now and again for a midweek game, I'd wander down at 3/4 time (back then they'd open the gates for anyonme who wanted to leave - which in City's case was quite a few!!) I'd nip in to see a bit of footie and always wondered why I could see and applaud good play whichever side was playing it. I never used to get back with a spiltting head or sore throat or anything like that. Asked my mate whether I was a closet City fan and told him what I've just told you. His answer was brief. That's only because you don't give a sh*t you clown! He was right.

liverpool all the way for me

If a tournament was invented where by somehow clubs could play countries who would you support if Liverpool drew your country?

im from the republic of Ireland and for me if it was Liverpool v Ireland id have to go with Liverpool l

i agree im from republic of ireland but i would have to go with Liverpool

No question, Liverpool every time, the England team are just a joke 

Liverpool hands down! The only reason I keep track of England is an excuse to go out and booze when Liverpool don't play, and to see if our lads are alright! 

Liverpool EVERY time without question.

I will hope the best team wins really, But if I had to choose it would be like choosing to shoot myself in the right foot or the left. Liverpool will win though.

Ill watch the England games but the only time I really get into it is when the world cup is on and we are down the pub,so Liverpool every time for me.

Liverpool everytime!

I despise England! I don't even like living in this country let alone supporting it!

Not even debatable. I'd be very concerned if someone came on and said England before Liverpool.

Definitely Liverpool every time. I haven't really liked England since Venables was in charge, but no matter what club would still come first.

Liverpool every time - I only watch England games if I've not got anything better to do!!

What a stupid question...how can u even think about favouring an international team over LIVERPOOL!

I dont really feel any passion for England whatsoever, i mean i know that im not a scouser, because im from Kent. But i feel so much more passion towards Liverpool than i do England. So if it ever happened , which it never would, i would support Liverpool all the way. I suppose the same goes for Gillingham who are my local side, if they were to get to the premiership and champions league, i still wouldnt support them over Liverpool, i dont even care for gills to be honest, i liek to see them do well, but Liverpool is where my heart lies and always will do!

Matt