Excuses?

*Before I start this topic, I would like to make it clear that this is not any knee-jerking, but in fact my honest opinion. I don't need you to agree with me, rather this is more of a debate, so if you jump on my back and say 'This is a pile of crap I've read in my life, he deserves the neg button for this etc', then I don't welcome you to read the rest of the post. It is just my very truthful opinion on matters - which I feel might be affecting our results, and the way I look at it.

Firstly, as the subject suggests, are we giving ourselves too much excuses? I actually might attribute our lack of urgency, lack of fighting spirit, and the poor performances to the word 'excuse'. Now, excuses don't mean the two red cards that we got yesterday, excuses don't mean red beach ball that awkwardly bounced off and resulted in our loss against Sunderland. However, the main gist of the topic is this - are we giving ourselves too much leeway in terms of results?

One of the reasons why we have this run of bad results, is that we give ourselves too much breathing space. We ain't critical of ourselves when we lose. We don't buckle down and say - 'Something is very wrong, we've got to change it immediately'. It looks to me as though we have the attitude of acceptance, which I feel is not good enough. When our team is so strong, can perform so well and then fail so badly the next game, we ask ourselves - 'Are we at the training ground, making sure this happens again? Are we critical of our errors?'

I've give a couple of examples.

Reflecting on the loss at Craven Cottage, Benitez said: "Always it's hard to take any defeat but especially this one because we were in control of the game.
  
"I was really surprised because the first half was a one sided game. We made one mistake when we conceded a goal but after Fernando scored we were in control.
  
"I don't know the percentage of possession we had but it was unbelievable to concede in the first half after controlling everything.
  
"They were more offensive in the second half and we made a massive mistake when we conceded the second goal. We then had two players sent-off."

Were we in serious control of the game? I missed the first 30 minutes but besides Nando's goal, I hardly saw anything productive. The second half, the troops looked clueless and lost. During the second half, it wasn't just two massive mistakes, we were sloppy all over, Zamora could easily have a hat-trick.

As professionals, we couldn't even live up to the honour of wearing the Red shirt, that team was for me, able to at least hold on for a draw. Even after Nando's brillance, we fell apart completely. Even if we might have played well for the first 30 minutes, the next 60 minutes we took the backfoot and so we lost. Sorry Rafa, but I don't think we were in control at the game at all from what I've seen, at least not our usual self.

After the defeat against Lyon..

"We're going through a tough patch but we've been through them before and we'll bounce back, there's no doubt about that," said the vice-captain.
  
"We always bounce back because we've got a lot of fight and character.

Sounds to me as if he's completely sure that bouncing back is a given. We've got a lot of fight and character, but we're not showing it. That's the main problem. I don't see what's with the 'there's no doubt about that', because actions speak louder than words. We've all forgotten about the manc win and 2 losses back to back. Is that good enough?

Yes, we've got to bounce back, but we can't have the mentality in us that no matter what, we'll always be able to do so. It's that we have to get down, buckle up and pull up our socks, work doubly hard, instead of thinking we'll do it. Having this mentality of acceptance, as I said, we ain't critical of ourselves when need be, and always think we'll do it. Without effort we won't get anywhere, it isn't evident for a long time now, with the exception of the United win.
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OK, so back to the point.

Are we giving ourselves too much excuses, and leeway for our losses? I do think so that this is the case. Yes, after the result it's important to move on and accept defeat, but we don't seem as though we want to improve and correct the errors. Of course, in order to return to our best, we have got to be critical of ourselves and know exactly what we have to do. Always aim for perfection, that when we fall a little short we still reach there.

From what I've seen in the past 6 games, there's a lot of work to be done. That mentality, a little bit of complacency and reliance on the past, is bringing us down. We can't keep looking back and say that 'we've done it back then, we'll do it again'. It doesn't work that way. The past only serves as an inspiration for us to strive on and improve in the future. The past is only there to show that mircales can exist. But without the show of spirit and effort, we will not get anywhere no matter how much we say.

Right now, let's get this over and done with, fully focussed and concentrate on the task at hand.

- Again, not a knee-jerk reaction, but my very honest opinion on what I've seen in terms of words and the performances. I saw the same phrase from Carra, 'We will bounce back' on .tv, yes we did against United but now we're back to square one.

Your thoughts?

As much as I hate to say it but I do have to agree with your statement. It was particularly uneasy to watch when the players display 'no urgency' even after going a goal down. Only a brillance piece of skill from El Nino had us claw one back but other than that, we displayed no urgency and no drive to try and take the game to Fulham. The players seems contented to just knock the ball around our half of the pitch.

And we have enough of this "we'll bounce right back" talk from Rafa, Carra & Kuyt. No use saying that and then you don't display the characteristics needed to be shown about 'bouncing back'. Seems some players have lost the hunger to win matches.

I hope this loss will be a wake-up call to the team. It's not so much the result that hurt but it's the way we lost the game. Rafa, I've always stand by you when everyone around me is calling for your head. I hope you are able to rectify what went wrong in our team soon

As much as I hate to say it but I do have to agree with your statement. It was particularly uneasy to watch when the players display 'no urgency' even after going a goal down. Only a brillance piece of skill from El Nino had us claw one back but other than that, we displayed no urgency and no drive to try and take the game to Fulham. The players seems contented to just knock the ball around our half of the pitch.

And we have enough of this "we'll bounce right back" talk from Rafa, Carra & Kuyt. No use saying that and then you don't display the characteristics needed to be shown about 'bouncing back'. Seems some players have lost the hunger to win matches.

I hope this loss will be a wake-up call to the team. It's not so much the result that hurt but it's the way we lost the game. Rafa, I've always stand by you when everyone around me is calling for your head. I hope you are able to rectify what went wrong in our team soon

Basically sums up what I laid out very clearly.

I'll repeat again, I'm not any Rafa basher nor knee-jerker, but as always there comes for a period for self-questioning.

With everything that has been going on at our beloved club, there is no room for anymore excuses.

You cannot consolidate for the decisions Rafa made in preparation for the Fulham game.

He had already made his mind up, regardless of what the score was, that he was going to bring Torres and Benayoun off because that is what Benitez does. And the reasons he expressed for those decisions in the post match interview beggar belief.

He is to blame for our defeat and has to take full responsibility.

It's time to start laying blame where it's due and no amount of millions will be enough if our gaffer continues to mess around with the team the way he is and always will.

A change is needed but I fear it wont happen and we will fade into mediocrity without so much as a Europa league place. Are going to accept this while Chelsea, Utd and Arsenal continue to make light work of their opponents?

With everything that has been going on at our beloved club, there is no room for anymore excuses.

You cannot consolidate for the decisions Rafa made in preparation for the Fulham game.

He had already made his mind up, regardless of what the score was, that he was going to bring Torres and Benayoun off because that is what Benitez does. And the reasons he expressed for those decisions in the post match interview beggar belief.

He is to blame for our defeat and has to take full responsibility.

It's time to start laying blame where it's due and no amount of millions will be enough if our gaffer continues to mess around with the team the way he is and always will.

A change is needed but I fear it wont happen and we will fade into mediocrity without so much as a Europa league place. Are going to accept this while Chelsea, Utd and Arsenal continue to make light work of their opponents?

Not the place to bash Rafa up here, so you're in the wrong thread mate.

My point on this thread is for the players to stop making excuses and having their own leeway defeat after defeat, but instead dig deep to salvage something and restore the winning mentality that has been so severly lacking in us this season.

At the moment, there's just too much talk and very little action.

When we play well, we look like world beaters. When we don't play well, we look really average. And most of the times this season, we've looked really average and this is really worrying. A club of calibre like Liverpool, shouldn't look average and shouldn't be losing 5 games in 6 matches.

We are taking it slightly too easy. As being known as the 'Comeback Kings', it's almost as though we believe things will come to us but believing is not good enough. We need to make our own luck, put it effort and things will fall into place. However, it does not look this way at the moment. We lack urgency.

We are too unpredictable. First we lose games to teams like Spurs and Villa. Then we put on a 6 game winning streak and wanting to build on it. Then we lose 4 games in 5 matches. We bounced back and beat the champions and again, we believed we can do it with confidence running high and what happens next? We lose two in a row.

There's no point is making up excuses as the performances do not show what a team going for the league title is. We need to forget the loss (again) and move on to the next game, which is very important.

I'm going to be honest here and say our biggest excuse is.... our strength in depth is sh*t

When you look at who was ruled out yesterday as an example ...

Johnson Agger Skrtel Aurelio

Aquilani Gerrard Riera

Ngog

You could argue them 7 of the 8 players ruled out would walk straight into our starting XI and any team are going to miss that amount of first team players.

I'm going to be honest here and say our biggest excuse is.... our strength in depth is sh*t

When you look at who was ruled out yesterday as an example ...

Johnson Agger Skrtel Aurelio

Aquilani Gerrard Riera

Ngog

You could argue them 7 of the 8 players ruled out would walk straight into our starting XI and any team are going to miss that amount of first team players.

Which 7 would walk straight into our starting 11?

I reckon only 4 would.  Johnson, Agger OR Skrtel, Gerrard and Aquilani (judging by the lack of depth in his position).

Only one of Sktel or Agger would play, Aurelio seems to be 2nd choice behind Insua (even playing out of postion at times) Riera has done nothing to nail down a place (I'd have Benayoun every time) and Ngog is never going to displace Torres.

Just my take but your comment looks slightly biased to make an excuse for yesterday.

By the way, Fulham were also without 2 of their most important players - Murphy and Johnson.  Didn't stop them winning though, did it?  Didn't stop their manager from leaving on their players who would give them a chance of winning, either.

Which 7 would walk straight into our starting 11?

Read the comment again Shay and take a deep breath.

I did not say would walk into the starting XI

I said it could be argued that they could,  it all comes down to which side of the fence you are standing on I suppose.

I'm not making an excuse for the result I'm making the excuse that our players in reserve are not fit to pull on the red shirt the likes of Babel Sotis Degen Voronin are not fit to wear the Liverpool shirt.

You've got to get the balance between excuses/moving forward and taking some time to analyse a result.

Yesterday we had an entire back four, our best midfielder, our new creative midfielder, our only natural winger and our second best forward all ruled out. And we had our best striker not fully fit. Is that an excuse or it justified to use that to explain the result? It isn't enough to explain the result simply because other players should have stood up and be counted but they didn't. Kuyt and Yossi in particular failed to step up to the mark.

We move on very quickly because we're Liverpool Football Club. When we're out our weakest, we're probably at our strongest. Countless times we have been written off but we come back and do the business. That's why we move on. On Wednesday, our CL campaign is expected to come to an abrupt halt by a lot of people but we will believe we can do it.

The reason I'm not picking out that many errors and trying to offer solutions to prevent them is simple. We are lacking one attribute than any F***ing person in the world can have. I can have, you can have it, every single person can have it. And that's determination and a will to succeed. That's what we're missing. I've only seen it against the Mancs, but it's tricky away games like yesterday when you need it. The determination to fight when it gets tough. How many times did we come from behind last season? Use the Pompey game from last season as an example. Twice behind to win 3-2. Here twice behind and they finish us off.

That's the difference between this season and last. And until the lads show some fight we will not win a single trophy. It's as simple as that for me. Yes I know football is played using the feet but a hell of a lot of it comes from the brain.

And so to the point, are we making excuses? Well injuries are out of our control (bar the Stevie one which I think Rafa has fu**ed up personally) and let's be honest, we're not getting the rub of the green lately either. But on the other hand, the average players are failing to perform and the team as a whole are failing to show the heart and desire to play for this club.

Are we making excuses? Yes and No. This is not the Liverpool we know but remember when we're at our weakest, we're at our strongest.

YNWA

Read the comment again Shay and take a deep breath.

I did not say would walk into the starting XI

I said it could be argued that they could,  it all comes down to which side of the fence you are standing on I suppose.

I'm not making an excuse for the result I'm making the excuse that our players in reserve are not fit to pull on the red shirt the likes of Babel Sotis Degen Voronin are not fit to wear the Liverpool shirt.

Mate, I just don't believe anyone could make that argument.

As for the squad being sh*t (which nobody denies) what is the excuse for keeping Voronin on?  Or for letting Babel wear the jersey?  Or for the total and utter capitulation when we were 2-1 down and the most likely to score were removed?

The last thing I want to hear is that they were being kept for the midweek fixture - I thought the league was our priority.  If Rafa hasn't worked that out after 5 years then he isn't as "in tune" with the fans as some thing he is.

Kuyt was absolutely shyte yesterday but I'd have pushed him further up as he looks a damn sight more likely than Voronin or Babel.  The same goes for Pacheco, Eccleston and Nemeth.

Why are we even buying these middle of the road wastes of money when we have similar standard, if not better, players in the reserves?

Plus, what injuries do Agger, Skrtel, Aurelio, Ngog have?  I haven't heard of any extra injuries other than Gerrard and Riera from our 1st team squad.  If someone can elaborate as to why they didn't travel I'd appreciate it because I personally think it was with an eye on Wednesday and that's just not good enough.

Plus, what injuries do Agger, Skrtel, Aurelio, Ngog have?  I haven't heard of any extra injuries other than Gerrard and Riera from our 1st team squad.  If someone can elaborate as to why they didn't travel I'd appreciate it because I personally think it was with an eye on Wednesday and that's just not good enough.

Apparently from the rumours circulating the rest of the squad was wiped out by the virus Aquilani was carrying and of course that was Lucas's fault, because I blame Lucas for everything 

The fact that the manager took Nando off with no credible replacement screams out "PROBLEMS"- some would say that he should not have been there at all with the injury issues he has. Rafa is treading a very fine line he is quoted as saying with reference to Torres "it is better to lose a player for 20 mins. than keep him on and lose him for a month" how can the man be expected to mount a serious challenge for any trophy with those constrictions?

I'm not entirely sure what the excuse is your pointing out to? We're loosing because we deserve to loose. A Team like liverpool is supposed to learn from their defeats and bounce back the next game but this season its been the same shitty football over and over again. We're playing 2 holding midfielder but still we find that our defence is cut open by a simple long ball, or a one-two pass. And because we have 2 defensive midfielders we have absoluetely no creativity. There is something fundamentally wrong on the training ground. Either benitez is giving them the same training methods and tactics over and over, or it is the players who just aren't applying those tactics into the game.

Some blame falls to rafa because he is responsible for the result but I think it is the players who should be completely ashamed of themselves. Even if your playing bad you should at least show some fight. Their showing none whatsoever. I think the first team needs a rest and some of the kids need to be brought in. Whther they loose or not i dont care, at least we'll get something from loosing rather than nothing.

Apparently from the rumours circulating the rest of the squad was wiped out by the virus Aquilani was carrying and of course that was Lucas's fault, because I blame Lucas for everything 

So, you don't know why they weren't there either?

If they were injured, fair enough.  But I haven't heard of any injuries to those mentioned.

I'm not entirely sure what the excuse is your pointing out to? We're loosing because we deserve to loose. A Team like liverpool is supposed to learn from their defeats and bounce back the next game but this season its been the same shitty football over and over again. We're playing 2 holding midfielder but still we find that our defence is cut open by a simple long ball, or a one-two pass. And because we have 2 defensive midfielders we have absoluetely no creativity. There is something fundamentally wrong on the training ground. Either benitez is giving them the same training methods and tactics over and over, or it is the players who just aren't applying those tactics into the game.

Some blame falls to rafa because he is responsible for the result but I think it is the players who should be completely ashamed of themselves. Even if your playing bad you should at least show some fight. Their showing none whatsoever. I think the first team needs a rest and some of the kids need to be brought in. Whther they loose or not I dont care, at least we'll get something from loosing rather than nothing.

I'm referring to the excuse whether we lose a game. We use the past as an excuse that we will come back again, without showing any fight. More of words than actions. The excuse that 'we've done it again, thus we'll definitely do it again', thinking everything will come back to us naturally, laid out to us for us to walk into.

I'm referring to the excuse of claims that the team is performing well despite the losses. I quoted Rafa Benitez and he claimed that 'we were in control of the game'. Which we weren't. And we ain't being fair to ourselves, being critical of ourselves, when we should have been.

Yes, indeed, you got it spot on, we were losing because we deserved to lose, the same shitty football all over again. And Rafa says 'OK, good try lads, we were good for some parts of the game but a couple of mistakes that's why we lost'. I'm getting tired of this.

Why not Rafa, sit down and say 'We ain't good at the moment. We ain't playing well at all. We ain't doing the things right'.

I'm referring to the excuse whether we lose a game. We use the past as an excuse that we will come back again, without showing any fight. More of words than actions. The excuse that 'we've done it again, thus we'll definitely do it again', thinking everything will come back to us naturally, laid out to us for us to walk into.

I'm referring to the excuse of claims that the team is performing well despite the losses. I quoted Rafa Benitez and he claimed that 'we were in control of the game'. Which we weren't. And we ain't being fair to ourselves, being critical of ourselves, when we should have been.

Yes, indeed, you got it spot on, we were losing because we deserved to lose, the same shitty football all over again. And Rafa says 'OK, good try lads, we were good for some parts of the game but a couple of mistakes that's why we lost'. I'm getting tired of this.

Why not Rafa, sit down and say 'We ain't good at the moment. We ain't playing well at all. We ain't doing the things right'.

We F***ing bossed that game for the first 30 minutes. We had total control and then some stupid defending cost us. He was right to say we were in control for large chunks of that first half.

I'm not entirely sure what the excuse is your pointing out to? We're loosing because we deserve to loose. A Team like liverpool is supposed to learn from their defeats and bounce back the next game but this season its been the same shitty football over and over again. We're playing 2 holding midfielder but still we find that our defence is cut open by a simple long ball, or a one-two pass. And because we have 2 defensive midfielders we have absoluetely no creativity. There is something fundamentally wrong on the training ground. Either benitez is giving them the same training methods and tactics over and over, or it is the players who just aren't applying those tactics into the game.

Some blame falls to rafa because he is responsible for the result but I think it is the players who should be completely ashamed of themselves. Even if your playing bad you should at least show some fight. Their showing none whatsoever. I think the first team needs a rest and some of the kids need to be brought in. Whther they loose or not i dont care, at least we'll get something from loosing rather than nothing.

Mr Benitez as a professional football coach would obviously have picked up on the points you mention about there being a certain lack of creativity and positive forward momentum and yesterday gave yet another display of the ongoing problem.
If the manager is aware of the problem and I have no doubt he is he will have the solution, the solution is presently and as it was a month ago or a year ago is to get a reasonable amount of wedge together and collar the identified missing links then slot them in. As stated there is no one better qualified than Rafa to do it his transfer figures are excellent in spite of the owners raiding the piggy bank........and threatening to replace him while one of the clowns is actually gift wrapping a new manager.
It's been said before but it is in indication of the managers' passion and sincerity that he is still here and the fact that people are questioning his credibility is unbelievable, we'd be trampled in the rush if he threw his hand in - and it's worth a mention but consider his replacement who would want to manage a club with no promise because the best athletes had followed the manager and no money on account of the owners raping the finances....the manager we would end up with would be a second rate yes man with no credibility and no passion.

So, you don't know why they weren't there either?

If they were injured, fair enough.  But I haven't heard of any injuries to those mentioned.

All I have heard is, they were ruled out due to the virus

I've heard that too, but only on here.  There's nothing on the OS.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

If only Voronin had caught the virus 

If only Voronin had caught the virus 

If only H&G got swine flu and died

As well as the bench being weak some of the team ain't up to the job