The lack of creativity from our engine room.

Lucas Leiva 2009/2010 season up to 24th Novemeber 2009

Premier League     Played 13 Scored 0 Assists 1

Champions League Played 04 Scored 0 Assists 0

Javier Mascherano

Premier League      Played 12 Scored 0 Assists 0

Champions League  Played 03 Scored 0 Assists 1

English Carling Cup  Played 01 Scored 0 Assists 1

Yossi Benayoun

Premier League       Played 13 Scored 4 Assists 3

Champions League   Played 04 Scored 1 Assists 1

English Carling Cup   Played 01 Scored 0 Assists 0

Dirk Kuyt

Premier League       Played 13 Scored 3 Assists 2
Champions League   Played 04 Scored 0 Assists 0
English Carling Cup   Played  01 Scored 0 Assists 0

Ryan Babel

Premier League       Played 09 Scored 2 Assists 1
Champions League   Played 03 Scored 1 Assists 0
English Carling Cup   Played 02 Scored 0 Assists 1

Albert Riera            

Premier League        Played 07 Scored 0 Assists 3
Champions League    Played 01 Scored 0 Assists 0
English Carling Cup    Played 01 Scored 0 Assists 0

Steven Gerrard   

Premier League         Played 10 Scored 4 Assists 5
Champions League     Played 03 Scored 0 Assists 0
English Carling Cup     Played 01 Scored 0 Assists 0

Make of these stats what you will, my take on it is that that or central midfield pairing are not being creative enough for the number of games they have played there Assist rate is dire and is only outdone by their lack of goals.

IMO Lucas & Mascherano are far too similar types of players and they offer us very little in terms of creating clear cut chances from our engine room, The solution for me is either Aquilani or Gerrard partner either Lucas or Mascherano if we keep persisting with two defensive midfielders its going to be a very long season.

Yep your right, this was mentioned in another thread last week somewhere.

For the bigger clubs, Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea and tough Euro matches away then their is an argument for them both to play but against most teams in the PL I say we go for one holding, we desperately need 2 strikers up front.

Yep your right, this was mentioned in another thread last week somewhere.

For the bigger clubs, Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea and tough Euro matches away then their is an argument for them both to play but against most teams in the PL I say we go for one holding, we desperately need 2 strikers up front.

Yeah I feel the same way I think we should just play the one holding midefielder and two up front but then again even if we do play two up front there isn't anyone who can guarentee us goals.I think the fact Lucas n Mascherano are similar is the problem,neither can make a decent pass they win back the ball thats their job.I think Aquilani should be given a chance we have spent so much money on him and he's not gettin any minutes at all,fair enough he's not fully fit but he never will be if Rafa doesn't play him.I feel he can change all this ,I know it's putting alot of pressure on him but he's a totally different player to the other two so obviously he's gonna do a much better job creatively(I hope).Rafa just needs to give him game time and he will make things better.

Yep your right, this was mentioned in another thread last week somewhere.

Here maybe?

http://www.lfcreds.com/reds/index.php?topic=25051.msg505196#msg505196

It just highlights Between Lucas and Masch they have played a maximum of 18 games across 3 competitions and managed 3 assists between them and scored 0 goals.

People are slating members of the squad such as Riera, Kuyt & Babel but in terms of Goals and Assists they have chipped in with a few more than both Mascherano and Lucas and as Mascherano's role is primarily as a defensive midfielder where does the responsibility lie to be our creative outlet ?

Those stats really do highlight the issue. 4 assists in 33 games between them is absolutely terrible.

Those stats really do highlight the issue. 4 assists in 33 games between them is absolutely terrible.

Make that 3 assists!!

And yet we're second highest on shots on goal & have the fourth highest goal tally in the Premiership at present - good fun twisting stats to fit your purpose - I do it quite often for work and on some of my posts.

And yet we're second highest on shots on goal & have the fourth highest goal tally in the Premiership at present - good fun twisting stats to fit your purpose - I do it quite often for work and on some of my posts.

What have I twisted and for what purpose may I ask ?

And yet we're second highest on shots on goal & have the fourth highest goal tally in the Premiership at present - good fun twisting stats to fit your purpose - I do it quite often for work and on some of my posts.

He's not twisting the stats. As you say, we may still be getting a few goals but thats mainly thanks to Torres. What RedLFCBlood is showing is that our midfield isn't doing its bit to help with the goals, well Gerrard is trying but Lucas and Mash and our wingers need to step up their game.

We've been discussing this in various formats and threads since you know who left us. I think everyone agrees that Lucas and Mascherano are way too similar in style to play together. Rafa's plan was to get Aquilani back a lot sooner than this, Lucas is just a stop-gap until Aquilani is fully fit. Then there's the dilemma involved with regards to dropping Stevie back in the middle with Masch, and playing Yossi in the hole.

Rafa could not have foreseen this injury crisis and he is doing the best he can with the players he has at his disposal. I know people harp on that Masch isn't as creative as he should be, but last season that wasn't a problem as the creativity was being supplied by you know who. Ultimately, that burden has fallen on Lucas, and he can't do it, simple as. He hasn't got the attributes to rip a defence apart with a slide rule pass and he ain't gonna put a ball on a fly's arse from fifty yards either.

Aquilani can though. Once we're back to our full quota, Aquilani will be the first choice to partner Masch, and if that doesn't work out, then I expect to see Gerrard drop back and Aquilani will play in the hole.

This injury curse is killing us. Why Rafa refuses to play Aquilani just yet, only he knows. Was he picked against Man City just to get the match day 'experience'? I'd love to see Aquilani play against Debrecen tonight, this game is made for him.

I agree that we need to be more creative but I don't think having 2 holding midfielders is the big issue that people make out. The idea in having those 2 sitting is that the full-backs are free to surge forward without leaving us exposed. We can be as attacking as anyone, it's just that our attacks come from a different part of the pitch. As with everything else this season, injuries have hampered us.

We've been discussing this in various formats and threads since you know who left us.

Indeed we have.

The formation we played last year had a fair degree of success.  Certainly our points tally suggested it did even with Torres and Gerrard having long periods out of our side.

It's exceptionally difficult to really analyse our stats when you consider the side has been ravaged by injuries in all areas of the pitch. 

With a settled defence - Aquilani, Gerrard and Torres all involved - then the engine room may get back up to speed.

Liverpool FC 2008/09

Xabi Alonso

Played 47 (40 starts) - 5 goals 5 assists

1 goal every 745 minutes
1 assist every 745 minutes

Lucas Leiva

Played 39 (19 starts) - 3 goals 3 assists

1 goal every 670 minutes
1 assist every 670 minutes

Do we still want to talk stats? 

With a settled defence - Aquilani, Gerrard and Torres all involved - then the engine room may get back up to speed.

I sincerely hope your right JD, I know its a controversial thing to say at this present time, but I would not mind at all if Rafa said to the lads, lets write this season off, concentrate on finding your form/fitness see where we are come next may and try again next year, as at the present time it looks like the gods of good fortune are looking down on us with contempt which is quite the opposite of last year.

Liverpool FC 2008/09
Do we still want to talk stats? 

Its not talking Stats based on last season JD  or comparing Lucas against Alonso, its about an area where we are clearly lacking creativity based on this season performances.

The stats for me highlight playing two defensive midfielder's is not working & something has to give who partners who is one thing that will surely be debated.

Liverpool FC 2008/09

Xabi Alonso

Played 47 (40 starts) - 5 goals 5 assists

1 goal every 745 minutes
1 assist every 745 minutes

Lucas Leiva

Played 39 (19 starts) - 3 goals 3 assists

1 goal every 670 minutes
1 assist every 670 minutes

Do we still want to talk stats?  

Interesting stats. Although for me Alonso was still a far more creative player, particularly in the first phase of an attack, for example his long diagonal passes. Anyway sorry for harping on about Alsono, he is long gone now! Must support what we have now, regardless of perceived lack of creativity! Lucas to score tonight!

Liverpool FC 2008/09

Xabi Alonso

Played 47 (40 starts) - 5 goals 5 assists

1 goal every 745 minutes
1 assist every 745 minutes

Lucas Leiva

Played 39 (19 starts) - 3 goals 3 assists

1 goal every 670 minutes
1 assist every 670 minutes

Do we still want to talk stats?  

Hmmmmmmmm............... ...... Stats are stats, and they can't really be argued with JD, so you've got me on that one sir. Assists are classed as direct passes that lead to goals being scored, they do not take into account the passes that the wingers, defenders etc. receive to provide assists. We could debate this all day mate, is there such thing as a 'pre-assist'? If there was then Xabi would win hands down, of that i have no doubt. The slide rule passes i was referrring to were the ones that put players in to set up the assist as well as the direct assists.

My point is basically this, who would you play alongside Masch? Lucas or Aquilani? Not taking into account games against the other 'Big Four', where i feel 2 defensive midfielders are better suited for the occasion.

As JD pointed out, pulling out stats isn't going to get you anywhere with this debate. Last season we all know Alonso was far more crucial to the amount of goals we scored but his stats don't match Lucas' in terms of goals and assists.

For me we are definitely missing some creativity in the middle. I don't agree that Masch and Lucas are too similar, in fact I think they're quite different but I don't think either can deliver a killer ball or moment of magic to create goals. This is why I'm hoping Aquilani can settle quickly. From clips we've seen that he is the type of player that could break away from the central pair and assist the front four. He seems to be more adept in the final third than Masch or Lucas and looks like someone who could pitch in with a few goals. This is all based on short clips though so we'll just have to wait and see how things go.

If all goes well then we have the problem of dropping someone. I think it has to be Lucas. I'm not Lucas-bashing here or anything, the boy has come on a lot this season but Masch is in my mind one of the top 3 defensive midfielders in the world and would offer that protection to allow Aquilani to get forward. I just don't see Lucas being able to do that job on his own.

Leaving AA out of the starting 11 against City makes me fear he's even more fragile than we thought.  Otherwise, Rafa's team selection policy is impossible to understand

Its not talking Stats based on last season JD  or comparing Lucas against Alonso, its about an area where we are clearly lacking creativity based on this season performances.

The stats for me highlight playing two defensive midfielder's is not working & something has to give who partners who is one thing that will surely be debated.

The point I was making was that the particular stats you chose don't tell us all that much.  According to last year's stats Lucas was more creative than Alonso.  Now, we all know that wasn't the case.  Similarly, just looking who got the final assist also doesn't tell us a huge amount.

We have scored 34 goals this season.  When did we score our 34th goal last season? Our 5th group game in the Champions League - 26th November 2008. 

We've scored more than we have at this stage last year. When we had a team featuring a £20M Robbie Keane and a £30M Xabi Alonso.  Does that suggest we have a lack of creativity this year?

Everyone knows where our problem lies.

In all fairness neither Masch nor Lucas are known for their creativity. We haven't had a chance to play Stevie or Aqualaini alongside one of those 2 with the other playing behind nando yet. So until we get our best 11 on the pitch together I wont comment on our creativity or lack of it. I'm pretty sure all the big sides, in Europe as well as England would miss there creative players. Would Barce miss Xavi or Iniesta? Real miss Xaabi or Kaka? Arsenal Fabregas? Of course they would. When Stevie Aqualiani Yossi and Nando all play together regularly Ill say we will create more then most

Everyone knows where our problem lies.

Just for the record, this time last year we had conceded 17 goals (including 4 in that pathetic League Cup game against Spurs).

We've conceded 27 so far this season.