Is it Rafa or the players??

Thats a good point wallbanger. Players in the current XI starting to think that they are undroppable. We need to reward those playing well - Pacheco, Ngog, Ayala (in his first game) because its not fair that they can do well yet not be in the squad next game and players who are consistanly not performing still play in the XI.

Players like Kuyt, Benayoun, Aurelio, Lucas can definatly be dropped and replaced, this would solve two issues
a) players want/desire/drive to be in the team giving 120% week in week out every minute of every match
b) squad depth, by rewarding good performance from the likes of Pacheco they will improve and be better next time called upon

Replace by who? Pacheco looked promising when he came on the other night but come on, he only played for 20 minutes! We've all seen what can happen when you put younger players under too much pressure (Darby). And since when has Ngog been playing well? Last time I checked he was getting the ball, trying to dribble and constantly being dispossessed.

Thats a good point wallbanger. Players in the current XI starting to think that they are undroppable. We need to reward those playing well - Pacheco, Ngog, Ayala (in his first game) because its not fair that they can do well yet not be in the squad next game and players who are consistanly not performing still play in the XI.

Players like Kuyt, Benayoun, Aurelio, Lucas can definatly be dropped and replaced, this would solve two issues
a) players want/desire/drive to be in the team giving 120% week in week out every minute of every match
b) squad depth, by rewarding good performance from the likes of Pacheco they will improve and be better next time called upon

Kuyt, suprisingly for me has five league goals already in a season when he is apparently playing terrible!

Benayoun has been one of our (very possibly our best) most consistent players in this calender year.

Drop Aurelio? He played left back today and made a real difference both attacking and defensive wise IMO and is still miles better than Insua to be honest.

No lets not drop Lucas. Dropping our most consistent players is not part of our plans!

And it is great to see Pacheco obviously but I hope after the performance last week wer not expecting too much from him.

I actually think our recent debacle has come down to something really simple:

Rafa's been figured out.

it doesn't matter if we're playing Inter Milan or Birmingham City, Rafa's tactics are always the same. He uses the same players the same way, and now we're getting figured out by other teams

just being quick, these are basic roles that our players have had all season without any sort of change

Torres - lone striker, always looking for the ball, our only real goal threat this season - cut him out and we have no X factor

Gerrard - dictates the play, goal threat in his own right, but this season he's been doing so much work in the midfield it's been difficult for him to get forward, and when he does , we're missing the stevie special, he is the heart of our team, if Gerrard is off in a match, it's a big blow for us

Kuyt - holds the ball up, plays down the wing, always looking for the cross before taking a player on - but very predictable, Dirk Kuyt will never do something that surprises you, he just does the basics really well

Benayoun - crafty, very crafty, he had the unpredictability to make defenders think more than they have to, but he never tries to get forward in the box himself, and he never shoots. benayoun 8 out of 10 times, wont shoot, he'll pass even if blasting the ball is his best option

Johnson - pushes up on the wing, cuts inside when close to the box, he's not afraid to beat players and you wish more of our squad had that confidence, another player that doesn't shoot nearly as much as he should

this is our attack. Torres, Gerrard, Benayoun, Kuyt, and Johnson.  when building up our attack these are the players that have the ball in the final third, but every time we build towards goal i feel like i'm watching a replay of what just happened 5 or 10 minutes before

i'm saying that we look the same all the time, there's no diversity, opposing managers know exactly what liverpool are going to do before we even step out on the pitch, and it's catching up to us. we've played the same way against Arsenal, Fiorentina, Birmingham, Blackburn, Everton, there's no diversity

personally, i think Rafa's more of a stubborn git then we all believe. I think he's a man that's really stuck in his ways, because up until now he's be successful overall with what he's done. i mean, we all hate fergie, but i have to admit, the man is anything but predictable and i think that fact adds to united's winning form over the last nearly 20 years now.

what does everyone think? are we the same? are we predictable? every game i feel like i'm watching a replay of the last game.

I get the feeling he has lost the impact on the players and they don't fully trust his methods anymore , first half yesterday we looked great and were in control , second half when they came back out it  looked like they had been told to drop 5/10 yards further back and stop pressing Arsenal and I got the impression the players didn't look very happy that they had lost control of the game because of it ,caution is rafa's middle name and his caution is costing us games .

Probably a mix of both, rafa had his (probably) full strength team out with a good attacking format,

Lets be realistic Rafa had his full strength line up out consisting with substitutions of 8 players who have just or recently returned from injury. These players are what you'd say building their match fitness, these players took the game to Arsenal in the first half, I'm not surprised they tailed off in the second half as they are not fully match fit.

Now when you take into consideration these 8 players have not really had a consistent run in the side this season as their season has been pretty much stop/start they have not been able to find any consistent form, what will only come about by playing a consistent number of games.

So in essence its unfair to judge our Strongest Starting XI on one performance when the biggest part of the team we sent out has recently or just returned from injury. People need to accept injuries by far and large to "key players" have disrupted our season and the only way it is going to improve is by staying injury free and hopefully adding to the squad come January.

I've asked the same question a couple of times, starting way back in February:

Rafa's tactics are built 'round a system, not players. That system is based consolidation, (not losing), first and foremost. Week in week out, be it Madrid away or Stoke at home, the system does not change. Lesser teams who, maybe, are content with a draw have rumbled the system.

If the system is failing, have we the flair players, the creative players (if you like) who are prepared to take a chance and step outside tactics? Are they allowed to?

I stated on here before that, above all and to date Rafa works to a system. He believes strongly in that system and as such the system comes first. When it works it can be spectacular but when all cogs aren't clicking or other teams 'suss' it, it looks tired and pedestrian.........

.......Now here's the quandary. When the 'system' isn't working, is it because the players haven't got the flair/skill to change things through fluidity of movement, or, are they not allowed to 'deviate' from the 'system'? ............

........I'll admit i'm totally bemused and baffled and don't know, for sure, which of the two holds the key. At the moment it appears, to me anyhow, that the lads are playing with fear. They don't seem to be comfortable doing anything other than the simple things, (short, lateral 5 yard passes, for example). Maybe if they lose the fear we'll see more skill, fluidity or freedom - i hope so.

...I always try to look at things logically and a big part of me wants to blame Rafa's system if i'm honest but then other factors kick in to make the question even more difficult.

A full team, firing on all cylinders, can deliver within the system - we have documented proof of that. I guess Rafa can point to those games and defend his system; remain 'stubborn' if you like. The thing is, it's as rare as hen's teeth for any team to have it's best XI available and we certainly haven't. It's at times like this that the frailties of the system are hi-lighted - in a big way. We just don't have the quality in the team to make it work.

Having said that (we lack quality) the thing is, Rafa should know this and maybe, just maybe, he should look to other formations, (for e.g.), either before or during a game, that will work.

We are lacking in confidence and playing with fear of that there's no doubt so, like it or not, the system (by default) isn't working. I don't think anyone can really argue with that. The players seem to have lost faith in the system - we watched our strongest XI roll over like lily-livered, nancy boys yesterday. When Arsenal equalised they visibly wilted it was almost like they were collectively thinking "aww F**k, here we go again".

Something has to change and realistically (much as i'd like to) we can't drop all our underachievers but we can try a new system - be that 4-4-2 or 4-3-3. The Wigan game would be an ideal chance to give it a whirl. It can do any harm to try but i've a notion we won't.

I know its not popular to say it but i think this kind of slump is the kind of thing that has the ability to ruin Rafa. He is still a fairly young manger and maybe he is just learning a lesson that every manager must learn but in a time like this what you need is to give everyone a shot in the arm not stick with whats not working.

Machiavelli (sorry but the man's a cracking read) said that a succesful man who's natural inclination is towards caution will be undone when his luck turns against him by his stubbornness to see where his previously successful methods have gone wrong. I see that with Rafa, he seems unwilling to abandon his old system and way of playing in order to try and kick us out of the slump, albeit he has no funds etc but he isnt helping himself by not doing what clearly needs to be done... in this case that something is ANYTHING (play 442 for a game, use aquilani from the start as boost to morale, play pacheco, play johnson at RM literally anything). He needs to see quickly that for all the many things that are out of his control that are hampering us, there are things in his control which he can do. Simply sticking to what worked last year may not work this year, times change and if you don't address the problems as they are, no matter who you are and how brilliant you may be you, you won't succeed.

if you.change  nothing nothing will change its history repeating itself game in game out

Lets be realistic Rafa had his full strength line up out consisting with substitutions of 8 players who have just or recently returned from injury. These players are what you'd say building their match fitness, these players took the game to Arsenal in the first half, I'm not surprised they tailed off in the second half as they are not fully match fit.

Now when you take into consideration these 8 players have not really had a consistent run in the side this season as their season has been pretty much stop/start they have not been able to find any consistent form, what will only come about by playing a consistent number of games.

So in essence its unfair to judge our Strongest Starting XI on one performance when the biggest part of the team we sent out has recently or just returned from injury. People need to accept injuries by far and large to "key players" have disrupted our season and the only way it is going to improve is by staying injury free and hopefully adding to the squad come January.

Daz,

Normally your arguments and opinions are valid and make for a good read. But surely you're slightly disillusioned with the situation.

The point about match fitness is irrelevant. We were good enough to have been 3-0 up in the first half - we weren't. We were piss poor in the second half. Johnson should have cleared his own goal, Carra was in totally the wrong position. And then we resorted to playing Bolton style for the last 20 minutes.

I understand that people are looking for excuses for the sh*te performances but they are starting to wear thin. As I and a few others have pointed out, it isnt to do with creating chances, its to do with stopping them going in at the other end. We see useless once we are chasing games, we lack any sort of urgency, drive or determination until its far too late.

Things have to change.

Manager and Players......very disillusioned with the whole set-up at present.
Ultimately though, the Boss must take control and turn it around pretty quickly or the slump will continue.  We seem very good at turning nailed on wins into losses at the moment.

Normally your arguments and opinions are valid and make for a good read. But surely you're slightly disillusioned with the situation.

Of course I'm disillusioned mate, like any other hardcore fan I'm hurting like mad over our situation, but rather than point the finger, I try to look for answers and as I have said in this thread alone, there is a number of things in my opinion that is contributing to our situation.

The Owners:   Board room wrangles/Uncertainty over ownership/investment/ lack of investment in the squad
Players:          Injuries/inconsistency/poor form/confidence/attitude/mentality
Rafa:              stubbornes/selections/substitutions/tactics
Luck:              Injuries/beach balls/own goals/decisions not going our way
Defending:      Zonal marking/inability to keep a clean sheet consistently
Creativity:       Midfield is not offering us much in terms of clear cut chances.
Finishing:        Plenty of missed opportunities.

I say there is an awful lot contributing to our situation, so rather than sit and point the finger at this moment in time, I just want to get behind the lads for the next 3 games and see if they can take 9 points and get some confidence built up.

To be honest now Rafa has just managed to get his first choice Starting XI on the field give them a run of games before we even think about changing anything, whether that be managers, formations, tactics etc etc, I think this squad of players have had enough disruption through injuries this season and I just ould not want to add to that disruption through our own making.

Good topic this one ! personally i think it is both Rafa and the players,the confidence factor starts at the very top of the club for me and filters down,if Rafa has no confidence in his bosses then the players will have no confidence ,for me a few players are just going through the motions and not giving their all ,this can't carry on otherwise we will be holding up the league !we need different gameplans to stop silly goals going in for a start otherwise our attacking players have to drop back and defend so we play catch up football .the present squad we have ,on paper, should be enough to be challenging for honours and i feel sure if Aquilani had not been injured and started the season we may have had more options .

If you can stay calm while all around you is chaos...then you probably haven't completely understood the seriousness of the situation.

Some would say that applies to me.

Too defensive and no plan B. The team has shown that when they play an up tempo game their a match for anyone, I think rafa should start instilling pasion instead of tactics

You can't blame Rafa for the injuries and luck we've had this season. The man has taken Liverpool within an inch of winning the league.

You also can't blame Rafa for the lack of investment. People can say all day long how much he has speant etc but how many players has he had to sell/swop around to get his perfect 11?

I keep saying it every week but the problem we have faced more than any this season is we have no strength in depth. When our key players are out injured, we are well and truly goosed. Other teams can cope a lot better without their key players than we can.

I also think it was a major mistake signing Aquilani. He might well be a world class player, but the fact is hes played about 30 minutes of football this season. People have said 'we signed aquilani for 5 years and not 5 minutes' and i agree with that to a certaine extent, but when you have just finished 4 points away from winning the title, you lose a very key player, argueably our best player last season, you need to replace him immediately. Signing a player who isn't fit and is very injury prone was just ridiculous. There are several players we could have got to have played in midfield for 20million who would have done a great job for us. We could have even signed a world class striker and pushed Gerrard back into midfield. We could have even signed a a 10 million midfielder like Jenas and then speant the rest on somebody like Henry. So signing Aquilani was just a joke really.

Somebody has said they think 'Rafa has been figured out' Good point that. Well IMO Rafa is a genious and he can out do anybody when it comes to tactics. However, it is clear to see LFC have no 'Plan B' when times aren't going our way. We sometimes run out of ideas which isn't good enough if we want to be challenging with the best.

BOTH+G&H+Fans

BOTH+G&H+Fans

Very true.

Every aspect of the club isn't clicking together.

Rafa's not getting some things right, the players aren't, the fans arent and the owners aren't (understatement of the century regarding the owners? Possibly).

Obviously Rafa. He's bought too many crap players.

Obviously Rafa. He's bought too many crap players.

But ask yourself why we have bought crap players?

Even if Rafa had the funds Man City have, he'd still buy the same crap players.

Even if Rafa had the funds Man City have, he'd still buy the same crap players.

He just wouldn't.

Rafa has had to build a squad whilst getting a first team together. Essentially squad players particuarly are gambles - some of the gambles have not paid off. That can be said for ANY club.

If we had more money - we would have a better squad of players. Simple.

the whole system is flawed if players dont perform they should get a pay cut and possible demotion. but if they still perform badly still get the same money. i wouldnt buy a football club with those rules

What if it's Sammy Lee?