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      Is it Rafa or the players??

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      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Is it Rafa or the players??
      Reply #69: Dec 15, 2009 05:49:03 am

      The questions you should be asking is

      (1) Why do good players want to leave a club with such a great reputation and history?

      and

      (2) Why do good players perform better elsewhere after leaving our club.

      I think the answer to these questions lies in the poor man management skills of Rafa Benitez.

      2) Who's performed better out of that list since leaving Liverpool? Not that many really, even alonso hasn't looked that good at Madrid

      1) There is a saying "Your career can only go down once you leave Liverpool" and that would apply to all but Alonso. Real Madrid have a far greater history and are a bigger status club (whether we like it or not) than us. Yes we may have beaten them last season, but we are talking about the Nine-tiimes Champions of Europe.
      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: Is it Rafa or the players??
      Reply #70: Dec 15, 2009 10:32:58 am
      I still think people have to look beyond the results and take the whole situation into perspective, instead of looking to blame Rafa and the players, (who may I add are not immune from criticism and must shoulder their proportion of the blame) to come to a reasonable insightful opinion of our situation.

      If any one can tell me taking into consideration all the points I've raised earlier in the thread any club that under such circumstances have managed to stay competitive in similar circumstances, I'm willing to listen and take into consideration your points.

      Take Newcastle United as an example a not too dissimilar situation to our own, Ownership issues, injuries, poor form etc etc, the Newcastle faithfuls biggest issue was with the Owner Mike Ashley and they voiced they frustrations at their Dilemma making Sam Allardyce the scapegoat (cause of all their problems), do I think Newcastle would have been relegated had Big Sam stayed on as manager ?, No I don't  I just think the chopping & changing of managers was just another contributing factor in Newcastle's dismal performances that contributed to them being relegated and it could have been avoided had the fans been reasonable and looked at the whole situation in perspective and not forcing Ashley's hand in getting rid of Big Sam to try and appease them in some way.
      « Last Edit: Dec 15, 2009 11:20:20 am by RedLFCBlood »
      artc
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      Re: Is it Rafa or the players??
      Reply #71: Dec 15, 2009 11:34:02 am
      I know i will be shouted down for this, but i would drop Gerrard until he is fully fit and has sorted his head out, give Pacheco a permanent place on the left in front of Aurelio put Kuyt up front with Torres and go 4.4.2. it's obvious to many of us that 4.4.1.1. is not working, the players don't like it, it hasn't worked this season, might have done last but wev'e been sussed by the oppo, cut out the link between Gerrard & Torres and we are toothless, why is it that RAFA has to make things so complicated, as the previous posts have said, get back to basics and play the game simple.
      Torres09
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      Re: Is it Rafa or the players??
      Reply #72: Dec 15, 2009 01:35:50 pm
      Definatly not true. Ok, Rafa has spent a lot of money on players who never deserved to put on a Liverpool shirt but to be fair his funding comes in dribs and drabs. The Americans were never what we needed. To answer the question, I think both players and Rafa are to blame.
      That is what I'm saying and I'm being attacked by everyone on here.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Is it Rafa or the players??
      Reply #73: Dec 15, 2009 01:43:48 pm
      That is what I'm saying and I'm being attacked by everyone on here.

      You're not being attacked and stop being so sensitive, you said Rafa had let good players go and I gave you reasons why a) some of them needed to go and b) some of them WANTED to go!

      and finally c) some of them weren't that good.
      Walk-wright-on
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      Re: Is it Rafa or the players??
      Reply #74: Dec 15, 2009 01:44:46 pm
      Take Newcastle United as an example a not too dissimilar situation to our own, Ownership issues, injuries, poor form etc etc, the Newcastle faithfuls biggest issue was with the Owner Mike Ashley and they voiced they frustrations at their Dilemma making Sam Allardyce the scapegoat (cause of all their problems), do I think Newcastle would have been relegated had Big Sam stayed on as manager ?, No I don't  I just think the chopping & changing of managers was just another contributing factor in Newcastle's dismal performances that contributed to them being relegated and it could have been avoided had the fans been reasonable and looked at the whole situation in perspective and not forcing Ashley's hand in getting rid of Big Sam to try and appease them in some way.

      Spot on RedLFCBlood, there needs to be a sense of realism when assessing the situation currently at Liverpool. The players and manager have to shoulder some of the blame but definitely not all of it! We as fans need to take a look at the situation as a whole and think about things realistically! Who would do a better job than Rafa in the current conditions? If you keep chopping and changing your manager it does nothing to help the position of the club unless you have pot fulls of money to throw at it (i.e. Real Madrid, Chelsea).

      I think you only need to look at Leeds as a further example, during their off field struggles they went through manager after manager and look where that has left them ...

      Lets get behind the team and all pull in the same direction and get this club back to where it belongs together!!! YNWA!!!
      shabbadoo
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      Re: Is it Rafa or the players??
      Reply #75: Dec 15, 2009 01:45:08 pm
      That is what I'm saying and I'm being attacked by everyone on here.

      NO! NO! your not being attacked by everyone on here,what you need to do is look at as the gaffer would say "FACTS" before you post crap from ssn,simple.
      racerx34
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      Re: Is it Rafa or the players??
      Reply #76: Dec 15, 2009 01:57:57 pm
      I dont think its either. I think its the financial constraints of the owners dictating events that follow.
      Rafa has to sell to buy.. we all know that.. or should anyway.
      As a result the squad is more bare this year than last. Alonso, Keane, Hyppia, Arbeloa gone.
      Great players to have in your squad if your hit by injuries.
      He wasnt given the money he needed to replace them. 5m for aquilani and 17 for johnson who
      both have missed a lot of games through injury leaves us with large parts of the season with a
      thread bare side, which has struggled with injuries and was visibly tired in the second half against
      arsenal.
      I dont blame the players or rafa.
      I blame the "investors" for not doing their job
      macca8
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      Re: Is it Rafa or the players??
      Reply #77: Dec 15, 2009 03:10:34 pm
      Is it Rafa or the players? That's a million pound worth of question right there. Honestly for me, it's a bit of both but truly if you count on the performance on pitch, it's the players you have to blame. When it comes to substitution, I think it maybe Rafa's fault or the players fault. But I'm trying to be fair in my opinion here.

      Rafa worked with a list of players that performed so great last season barring Alonso and Hyypia. This season however things didn't go well according to plan. Some might say that the departure of both Alonso and Hyypia really damaging our fundamental but to be honest, a club like Liverpool shouldn't be blaming for those two players for our sudden demise. Alonso played a big part in our midfield last season with his sensational passings and controls while Hyypia has been solid whenever he been called into action. But prior to that, Alonso didn't played that good 2 seasons before and Hyypia didn't feature regularly in our squad. By saying that we really missed Alonso it's like admitting that we were totally reliant on him and we're nothing without him. It's not the case here as we all know apart from Alonso and Hyypia, Rafa has bought in Johnson and Aquilani to strengthen our squad. So there's no question to our overall squad strength eventhough Rafa didn't use Aquilani as frequent as we wanted him to after he's fully recovered.

      But if you look at our squad all together, there's still some weakness. We do lack in squad depth comparing to other big clubs in PL. It's a fact but it's not a fact that Rafa didn't tried to sign some good ones. I always said and believed that we are currently having transfer kitty worth of a club like Hull and Wigan. Didn't Rafa tried to sign Simao, Alves, Jovetic but because our failure to compete in the transfer market caused us. Add it up to the incompetency of our then Parry to resolve any transfer issue, we ended up having just average squad players. We didn't deserved to have players like Voronin, Degen or Pennant in our club. Comparing their standard to us is far from equal but due to our lack of spending power we have to lower our standard by signing them.

      Some has questioned why Rafa let go those players (Bellamy, Sissoko, Riise, Alonso etc). If Rafa didn't release those players then how on earth Torres ended up here? I don't know about other clubs but I think Liverpool currently being the only big club that has to sell in order to buy and that's pretty pathetic considering our stature and history. It doesn't help when you have owners that talked too much but less action. They spent less but hoped too high. They should considered themselves lucky to have Rafa as manager as I don't see other managers will do well under heavy constant financial constraint.

      So for me if you ask whether Rafa should be blame or the players, I can only offer this: Rafa's job here is to identify players that he felt suited to his system and forwarded it to board. He also responsible to determine the formations and tactic that will be used during games and select players that he thinks capable of getting the job done. The players on the other hand, have to attend every training session and played their hearts out when being selected. The owners, back the manager's plans and try sign every players suggested. Rafa's fault was he's too reliant on some players that clearly didn't performed. The players (I'm not trying to name anyone) when selected didn't played as per instructed and played with no passion and determination. The owners clearly didn't have the financial power to back Rafa.

      But for me the blame should be put on our shoulders. Why? I've read some of your post on other threads and I noticed you're saying the same thing; the passion is gone. Anfield hasn't been the fortress we known. There's no cheer when we're down, people leaving 5 minutes before time, letting opposition's fans took control of Anfield. On the net, there's divided opinion on Rafa, the players and the owners. What the hell is that? So, if you want to seek whether on who we should blame, I think the answer is us.

       
      Torres09
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      Re: Is it Rafa or the players??
      Reply #78: Dec 15, 2009 04:09:23 pm
      NO! NO! your not being attacked by everyone on here,what you need to do is look at as the gaffer would say "FACTS" before you post crap from ssn,simple.

      You're as deluded as Rafa.

      I'm surprised "King Rafa" hasn't yet said "I've bought a lot of crap players. Fact."
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Is it Rafa or the players??
      Reply #79: Dec 15, 2009 04:10:51 pm

      And you're as thick as Andy Gray!!!
      Torres09
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      Re: Is it Rafa or the players??
      Reply #80: Dec 15, 2009 04:14:48 pm
      ;D!
      macca8
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      Re: Is it Rafa or the players??
      Reply #81: Dec 15, 2009 04:31:25 pm
      ^^
      You make a nice pundit along with Souness ;D!
      shabbadoo
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      Re: Is it Rafa or the players??
      Reply #82: Dec 15, 2009 04:40:49 pm
      You're as deluded as Rafa.

      I'm surprised "King Rafa" hasn't yet said "I've bought a lot of crap players. Fact."

      So alot of players would include reina,agger,skrtl,johnson,aurelio,insua,kuyt,masch,aquilani,torres and not to mention the reserves and the youth at the academy.Open your eyes rafa had improved us all over the pitch and off it.
      Bet you would love to see "King Klinsman" in charge.
      « Last Edit: Dec 15, 2009 04:46:46 pm by shabbadoo »
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Is it Rafa or the players??
      Reply #83: Dec 15, 2009 04:41:48 pm
      So alot of players would include reina,agger,skrtl,johnson,aurelio,insua,kuyt,masch,aquilani,torres and not to mention the reserves and the youth at the academy.Open your eyes rafa hsd improved us allover the pitch.
      Bet you would love to see "King Klingsman" in charge.

      I bet he'd love to see Herr Klinsmann goosestepping to the technical area!
      shabbadoo
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      Re: Is it Rafa or the players??
      Reply #84: Dec 15, 2009 04:45:45 pm
      Jah! Jah! weez playzed guut futzball! Butz i only lasted 10 gamez with bayern.
      stuey
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      Re: Is it Rafa or the players??
      Reply #85: Dec 15, 2009 04:58:29 pm
      Are you here on a wind up? as all I have read is negative?
      Nail on the head Gareth, anyone coming onto the forum quoting SSN and the muppets they employ is on a piss take and quite honestly should be fu**ed off at the earliest opportunity.
      Their theory is based on biased assumption and posts connected to their views can only be seen in the same light.  
      macca8
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      Re: Is it Rafa or the players??
      Reply #86: Dec 15, 2009 04:59:55 pm
      So alot of players would include reina,agger,skrtl,johnson,aurelio,insua,kuyt,masch,aquilani,torres and not to mention the reserves and the youth at the academy.Open your eyes rafa had improved us all over the pitch and off it.
      Bet you would love to see "King Klinsman" in charge.

      Maybe the destructive combination of Klinsmann and Souness!
      simolfc
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      Re: Is it Rafa or the players??
      Reply #87: Dec 15, 2009 06:11:08 pm
      i think it's the formation and all the reds i've spoken to about it agree with me

      we fall short when our opponents play counter-attacking football

      if stevie got disposessed before, they'd run right into alonso, he was solid

      we've got masch but we did back then and they were an excellent pairing

      lucas is hardly up to the task

      my point is, it doesn't work without alonso or someone who can fill his shoes

      it's been said so many times, what's wrong with 4-4-2?

      on the occasions where rafa's played kuyt upfront, he's really shone like he used to

      so much more so than he's been doing in right wing where he's completely out of position and leaves us very open

      i also think we're lacking in LB and even RB when johnson's injured

      u can't have a second rate bench, or in rafa's case, second rate defensive substitutes

      we're stretched to find a good back four for our starting line-up, let alone have any to spare

      as for the weekend's game, i thought reina played well, as did masch and what i saw of aquilani was fantastic, he made some beautiful passes and created a few oppurtunities

      when it comes down to it, i think rafa's stubborn

      i read someone blaming the fans on this post and at first, i almost took offence to that

      i thought "we've done nothing but support rafa"

      exactly

      a columnist in a paper i was reading a while back said that any other of the top four's fans would have turned on rafa by now

      and i think he's right

      and i think we're being too understanding

      this is liverpool and look where we are in the table, look at this season's home record compared to last season

      maybe if we speak out, rafa will listen

      also H&G are a problem but we all already know that

      i tried explaining the importance of football to a yank the other day, they didn't get it

      i don't think theses ones do either
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Is it Rafa or the players??
      Reply #88: Dec 15, 2009 06:22:47 pm
      a columnist in a paper i was reading a while back said that any other of the top four's fans would have turned on rafa by now

      and i think he's right

      and i think we're being too understanding

      But, we're not other fans though and I certainly don't want to be compared with clueless gobs***e mancs or hypocritcal tw*ts like Arsenal or Chelsea fans.

      It's called supporting your club through thick and thin and togetherness, something I was taught as a child.

      When Shankly took over he wanted to build togetherness. Something referred to as "The Liverpool Way." one of the reasons the media hate us and will continue to stick the knife in, they have slagged Rafa since day one in 2004 and now know the only way Rafa will leave is if the whole of Anfield turn on him.

      I won't be doing their bidding!



       
      Gow
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      Re: Is it Rafa or the players??
      Reply #89: Dec 15, 2009 06:28:01 pm
      Don't know if this has been posted elsewhere but it's OK lads. You can lock this thread.

      Liverpool manager Benitez 'guarantees' top four finish
      Liverpool boss Rafael Benitez says he "guarantees" that they will finish in the top four despite their poor form so far this season.

      Having begun hoping to challenge for the title Liverpool lie seventh in the table, 13 points behind leaders Chelsea and out of the Champions League.

      "I am sure we can do it because I know we are better than the team you are seeing on the pitch," said Benitez.

      "I can guarantee we will finish in the top four."

      On Sunday, Liverpool lost 2-1 at home to Arsenal, despite scoring first.

      That result, their sixth league defeat of the season, left them five points adrift of the Champions League places. And it extended their run of poor results to only three wins in the last 15 games, their last home victory having come against champions Manchester United on 25 October.

      Benitez is facing the most difficult period of his five years in charge at Anfield, but insists he will not compromise his principles to get out of an uncomfortable situation.

      "For five years I think we were doing well," he said. "So we have to keep going in the same way because the club is stronger now in everything: the squad, the value of the club is better than five years ago.

      "Yes, it is a bad moment but I still think we can improve.

      "I think it is very important for any manager, but especially here in England, to be strong.

      "You have to show you have an idea, you have your own people that you can talk with and analyse things and say 'This is the way to do things' and we have to keep going.

      "The main thing for me is to come here early in the morning, do my job, go home still working a little bit and try to be ready for the next day.

      "That is the way to do things and that is an example for the players - and they are doing the same thing.

      "Everything can be improved and if we make mistakes we keep going.

      "There are still 22 games to play so we know we have to change our target. Now it is to get three points against Wigan and then start thinking about Portsmouth (at the weekend)."

      BBC
      jessi
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      Re: Is it Rafa or the players??
      Reply #90: Dec 15, 2009 06:37:45 pm
      Hi mate.. If Rafa walks who do LFC replace him with?
      You raised several excellent points and non are easy to answer,I think its soley down to some of the players that Shankley and Paisley would never have dreamed of having on the tem sheet leave alone the bench !!
        MARTIN O,NIEL????????
      Gow
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      Re: Is it Rafa or the players??
      Reply #91: Dec 15, 2009 06:39:48 pm

      Yeah. Let's get alex ferguson in so he can outrun the mancs. They'd love that. ;)

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