Milan Jovanovic (Liverpool -> Anderlect)

But if you put any of us on the pitch, we'd show desire, work rate and commitment too. It wouldnt make us good enough players though.

Whatever his wages, and we don't know the exact figure or even necessarily the ball park figure, the point is, he is going to be on good money. That much we can infer from the the value of our total wage bill (from the club acounts), the average premier league wage (Deloitte reports), the circumstances of his arrival and what you would expect such a player to receive relative to the other players in the squad. Whatever the figure it is likely to be a significant amount and that's what make it all the more necessary that we move him on.

Simply disagree about him being 'very quick', and while I could be wrong, I'd put money on him not being the fastest in our squad. Suarez, Gerrard, Johnson and even Martin Kelly I reckon would beat him in a straight race. At any rate, it's a moot point. Cisse was blistering, he was also clueless. So is Babel. Pace is only an asset if you have the footballing ability to make it an asset: it's no good accelerating into a dead end as such players have a tendency to do.

What do you cite "specifically" about a player who lacks so much? Stick me in the team and you wouldn't cite any "specific" weakness in my game, you'd say I was "sh!t", and you'd be about right.

Regardless of how poor he is as a player, I'd probably go as far as safely saying he's miles above anyone on here who posts in terms of footballing ability.  We might exaggerate and say he's sh*t but what we mean is he's sh*t in comparison to the high standards we set of players who want to play for LFC.  I'm sure me, you and the majority of people who post on here are actually genuinely sh*t players in the grand scheme of professional football (don't forget LFC sets a very high bar) - the lad will cut it at a decent level and we can all agree on that (I think he'd even cut it at this level but that's just me), the same couldn't be said about "any of us".  Of course, we'd show those qualities, the mere fact we're posting on a forum about LFC pretty much says we're quite passionate about the club, so naturally we'd give 120%.

So having desire, work-rate and commitment and being awful simply won't be enough for someone like me or you to get by at LFC.  He's no mug, the lad isn't sh*t - he might not be good enough for us but you don't play at such a high level by being terrible.  So those three attributes do matter for professional footballers such as Jova.  You can't say "well even I'd show those attributes" because there's a decent chance that you don't even have enough talent to cut it at League One standard.  Of course there's always the possibility you're Steven Gerrard posting, but I'm sure that's not the case for the majority of us.

If we don't know his ballpark wages figure and are saying that we're only speculating based on media reports, then you're well within your right to say such a thing.  Don't then do the exact same thing and think your example is any more valid than mine though.  Pick a side and stick with it, either we can get a ballpark figure or we can't, we either can use it as a stick to measure him with or we can't.  Regardless, common sense would dictate that because we're not playing him and the fact he's surely obviously on a wage greater than £35k a week (that's the absolute lowest figure I've seen reported), we're not getting any value from him.  If he was playing, we could measure things a bit better - yes.  Again, I see the merit in wanting to sell him as we're getting a sh*t return for whatever figure it is that he's on.  I've come to debate his football ability, not his earnings or the value we're getting from him.

I'm working on the speed aspect of things, sent a couple of emails and happy for a happy return, we'll leave it at that for now else it's just going to go back and forth with me saying he's quick and you saying he's not.  You think six players are faster than him currently, I'm not of that opinion at all.

When you say he lacks so much, do you really believe his finishing is below standard?  Do you believe he's not quick enough?  Where do you stand on matters like his strength, positioning, dribbling, ball control, technique, decision making and would you care to provide examples to help me see it, because currently, I just don't - if he really is such a sub-standard player, I've got no doubts about how it should be an easy task and I'm just missing something incredibly basic.  Please help me see it.

Right, so Degen, Voronin, Dossena etc.. aren't "terrible", nor are they are "sh!t" because they've "played at such a high level"? No, they are those things. We simply made the mistake of signing them and elevating them to a level far beyond that which their ability suits. Jovanovic was obviously well suited to Standard Liege but it's pretty clear that he isn't suited to being, certainly a first teamer for a club who aspires to win the Premier League, or in my opinion, a useful squad player. If there even was a fair possibility that he may be a solid backup player, then his age and his likely wages still tip the balance for me. By all means, believe the press reports which just happen to estimate a much lower figure than others, but I refuse to rely on any of them, irrespective of whether they say he's on £120k a week or 'just' the £45k a week. All that matters from my point of view is that he's on a significant sum of money; money that could be put to better use. My only assumption, and it is a far less fanciful one than yours, is that he earns a significant wage. That I infer from the criteria set out in my previous post. Of course, it's possible that in spite of the confirmed interest of other clubs prior to signing him, in spite of Liverpool competing at the top end of a division in which the average wage is about £30,000 a week (if memory serves me), and in spite of the fact that he's a serbian international, that in fact he's on a pittance and that the uncapped, inexperienced and unproven Jay Spearing earns more than he does. It's a matter of judgment, and in my judgment, it's reasonably likely and therefore reasonable to believe that he earns a significant wage relatively speaking. If you want to deny that, fine, please yourself.

While you are "working on the speed thing", I'll refer to you my previous post where I said that it's a moot point. That means, if he truly he is the fastest player in our squad (I only think there four player who are probably faster) it won't alter my view of his ability in the slightest as pace is nothing without footballing ability, which in my opinion he lacks.

No, none of those players are sh*t.  Not what we're aiming for admittedly, but Degen was very good for Dortmund before he joined us and I think if he could actually stay fit (and we didn't have such promising RBs coming through the ranks) he could provide some decent cover for us.  Given the fact he can't stay fit and we do have such promising RBs coming through the ranks, his services are no longer required.  Before Kelly and Flanagan made names for themselves, he was a better option than Stephen Darby.

Voronin was a F***ing monster in the Bundesliga, didn't work out here because the bar is set much higher - not a reflection on his ability, it's a reflection on the standards LFC set.  Similar with Dossena, from what limited games I did watch in Serie A this season - he was one of the better wingers in the league.  As for Jovanovic, you even admit he'd might be a decent backup player, I think similarly but those characteristics we talked about eariler (workrate/determination etc.) for me tip the scales towards being a useful squad option instead of a mere backup.  I don't need to keep repeating myself, I see the merit of selling him from a financial POV, I agree we could use the money better etc. - I've come to debate his (lack of) ability as a footballer.  I'm not denying he earns a "significant wage", I am denying this discussion is about finances though.

I've sent an email away and tweeted a few people asking if they can shed any light on the matter, if there's some evidence to suggest you've been wrong about something so basic such as his speed, it's not crazy to assume you've also been wrong on a whole number of other issues relating to Jovanovic.  Again, I'd agree that pace without the whole package means very little but I still can't help shake the fact that if you've overlooked the fact that he's quick (and it's somehow proven), there's a very good chance that you've overlooked some of the other finer points of his game which in my eyes are quite impressive.  

Similarly, it's possible that if he's of "average pace" it's a good indicator that I've overrated the lad which is why I'm asking for people to point these things out to me because I simply can't see it.  I think the lad is a good player, help me see it another way - use some statistics, bend them to suit your needs if you must.

Regardless of how poor he is as a player, I'd probably go as far as safely saying he's miles above anyone on here who posts in terms of footballing ability.

Goes for pretty much any professional player...must say is the most truthful statement I have read in a long time here, though there are those on this board and others that would dispute this fact.

The point about those players being "sh!t" is that they were sh!t in spite of the fact that they had "played at such a high level", be it in the Bundesliga or Serie 'a'. Ability is relative, and relative to our needs those players were "sh!t".

Anyway, good luck with your "tweeting" on the "speed thing". If you can verifiably prove that he's the fastest player in the squad, hats off to you. Which measure will be using by the way? His average speed or his top speed? His speed over 10 meters or over 100 meters? Let me know what your "research" yields, sources and all, and I'll be happy to accept if it proves me to be wrong on that point.

Your argument that it should prejudice my judgment over his footballing ability or "Jovanovic related issues" makes little sense though. It's completely possible to make a sound assessment of a player's footballing ability or lack thereof, and misjudge how fast that player moves across the grass compared with his teammates. If, though, I had argued that a player was not productive enough, and a stat proved that in fact that player had scored 12 goals and made 10 assists, it would clearly cast doubt on that judgment. Speed though? I'm afraid not.  

Apologies for not rushing to label a Liverpool player as sh*t.  Relative to our abilities, we know F**k all of how he plays because he hasn't been given a decent run out.  The few times he did get given a run out under a limited and incapable manager playing in a system and league he was also expected to adjust to in little to no time, he still showed glimpses of quality according to a number of people on here in addition to myself.

I asked said people for "any amount of information related to a players speed or pace - whether that be top speed or time it takes to run a particular distance".  I'm not definitely saying that if you've been proven wrong about his pace you'd necessarily be wrong about his footballing ability but moreso along the lines that it wouldn't be such a crazy scenario to assume it could be a possibility, similarly I believe the same is true of my perceptions of him.  This is exactly why I'm asking people to pinpoint areas of his game which are so below standard because I simply cannot see it (other than the two examples I'm openly willing to admit).

I've pointed out aspects of his game I believe are above standard but the way in which other people are presenting their findings about his game, scream to me of laziness and a lack of real analysis of any sort (the generic, he's not good enough all round or he's sh*t etc.).  Either of us could be wrong about Jova whether that's talking about his speed or his overall ability, the only thing I might be able to get a bit of a definitive reading on is probably speed.  The stats for him are actually quite impressive but again, that's neither here nor there because you are of the opinion that they are of very little use.

There's been plenty of good players who have had a shocker at particular clubs (I don't believe that's even the case in this scenario) and it certainly doesn't make them sh*t players.  You seem to think that no area of his game is up to standard but the stats actually do say he produces the goods on an international level but you're not a big fan of them - so again it doesn't really matter.

It isn't laziness to describe him as lacking too much footballing ability to be of any real value to us. It's simply pointless to explain precisely what it is that I think he lacks, given that I think he lacks so so much. If you like you can take your list of significant attributes and note my opinion as being "not good enough" for each of them, if that helps? I might be wrong, of course, but I can't see how he would make a player for us. His likely wages and his age just compound it for me. It doesn't make sense to keep a 30 year old, on significant wages who at best is going to play a bit-part role.

We'll find out soon enough though.

F***ing hell is he still here?

F***ing hell is he still here?

He's not alone. The whole lot's still here. F***ing hell. 

 He's garbage, absolutely awful. To work that out, you don't need a speedometer or a calculator or an index or a graph. You just need to watch him for ten minutes. If anyone at all will take him, let them have him. I wouldn't hold your breath though, he's a "keeper" for the rest of the contract i should think.

Perhaps a poor analysis of his ability would be a more appropriate term to use - anyone who truthfully believes that every single one of his attributes is "not good enough" is IMHO frankly lying or incompetent.  I'm no fan of Charlie Adam but I've got the common sense to see his dead ball ability is quite special, I can see he's got a good eye for a pass but in my opinion, the negatives far outweigh the positives - hence me being against the signing.  People can't seem to say similar things about Jova when it's obvious he has at the very least some excellent qualities, if people at least admitted those and were a little more rational in their opinion of him - I'd be inclined to listen and pay attention, but they're not.  It's always a nerdgasm of keyboard fuelled rage about how sh*t he is/waste of a good shirt/smarmy comments about how he's so terrible we'll be lucky if someone takes him off our hands etc.

Again, you've failed to see the point about his wages and the fact the debate wasn't at all about that - I can see the merit of wanting him gone under the premise of building for the future (out of all the players who have been labelled deadwood, he would probably be the easiest to shift - combined with the fact he wants to play, freezing him out is a good way to get him to force a move) but I'd put it down to moreso Jova being a victim of circumstances rather than not being good enough.  You clearly see it differently, fair play to you.

I think this debate has run it's course for now, it's merely going around in circles now - I'm just repeating myself and you're just repeating yourself, let it die I guess.  Thanks for taking part but I'm still equally as clueless as I was before I started, appreciate the civility and the time you took to partake, you're a good poster mate and despite the fact I don't think I've agreed with you on a single matter, I certainly appreciate your postings.  Posters like you are necessary to keep healthy, civilised, rational debates as exactly that.

There's no we'll find out soon enough, Jova's a dead man walking - it's only a matter of time before he finds another club.

He's not alone. The whole lot's still here. F***ing hell. 

 Yes thanks to the previous regimes we have lots of deadwood I'm afraid. For some there is still a glimmer of hope, a flicker of possibility, but for many they are simply sucking the life out of the club by picking up the money which was by means of catastrophically poor decision making offered to them in their contracts.

 I suppose you can't blame them for doing a "Diao", but the likes of Deggen, Jovanovic, N'Gog etc etc are truly a burden we could do with getting rid of. Even more recent mistakes like Poulsen and Konchesky ought to be gone, while I personally have about the same amount of hope that Cole will come good as I do of Aquilani.

 It's a millstone which continues to hold the club back. 

Vitez you've made some great points in this thread, agree with you.

Here's my take on it back in March;
http://www.anfield-online.co.uk/opinion/2011/liverpools-lack-of-width-means-one-man-should-be-given-a-chance/

**looks at starting lineup**

Someone makes a complaint about how we need players who provide genuine width and aren't scared to take a player on.

**suggest Jovanovic**

Err, not that guy that actually does those things - he's sh*t etc.  Continue to make desperate pleas to see genuine width and a winger who will take people on.

Interesting article by the way.  I'd agree with it, should look at that part of the site more often   I like reading people's opinions (even if I disagree with them - not saying your piece is an example of this, merely saying I can appreciate a well thought out constructed post) especially for matters that are generally forgotten about or less talked about.  Might have a trawl through and read some more

I can't stress enough I see why what happened with Jova happened, you only need to read my posts about him being a victim of circumstances/frozen out for political reasons etc.  I see the merit of wanting him gone, I just can't come to grips with the idea of people calling him outright sh*t and so forth.

Perhaps a poor analysis of his ability would be a more appropriate term to use - anyone who truthfully believes that every single one of his attributes is "not good enough" is IMHO frankly lying or incompetent.  I'm no fan of Charlie Adam but I've got the common sense to see his dead ball ability is quite special, I can see he's got a good eye for a pass but in my opinion, the negatives far outweigh the positives - hence me being against the signing.  People can't seem to say similar things about Jova when it's obvious he has at the very least some excellent qualities, if people at least admitted those and were a little more rational in their opinion of him - I'd be inclined to listen and pay attention, but they're not.  It's always a nerdgasm of keyboard fuelled rage about how sh*t he is/waste of a good shirt/smarmy comments about how he's so terrible we'll be lucky if someone takes him off our hands etc.

There's no we'll find out soon enough, Jova's a dead man walking - it's only a matter of time before he finds another club.

Sorry to run roughshod over your fine contribution to the discussion but the lad is not Liverpool material and ultimately a drain on resources.

**looks at starting lineup**

Someone makes a complaint about how we need players who provide genuine width and aren't scared to take a player on.

**suggest Jovanovic**

Err, not that guy that actually does those things - he's sh*t etc.  Continue to make desperate pleas to see genuine width and a winger who will take people on.

Interesting article by the way.  I'd agree with it, should look at that part of the site more often  I like reading people's opinions (even if I disagree with them - not saying your piece is an example of this, merely saying I can appreciate a well thought out constructed post) especially for matters that are generally forgotten about or less talked about.  Might have a trawl through and read some more

I can't stress enough I see why what happened with Jova happened, you only need to read my posts about him being a victim of circumstances/frozen out for political reasons etc.  I see the merit of wanting him gone, I just can't come to grips with the idea of people calling him outright sh*t and so forth.

He is not Liverpool material mate full stop.

I can understand where vitez is coming from in that as a professional footballer he is not sh*t and has some qualities which other clubs could make use of.

Having said that it does not disguise the fact he wasn't good enough last season and definately not good enough for the future direction we all want the club to be going.

I can understand where vitez is coming from in that as a professional footballer he is not sh*t and has some qualities which other clubs could make use of.

Having said that it does not disguise the fact he wasn't good enough last season and definately not good enough for the future direction we all want the club to be going.

I'm actually of the opinion that he's got some qualities LFC could use with but I think I'm in a bit of a party of one or two in this situation.  Feel free to join the party though, at least nobody will drink all the beer because there's not that many of us here.  You lot have to share beers around lots of you in your party.

The main point of the discussion was meant to be based more around his footballing ability, or lack thereof.  I thought I'd mentioned enough times that this wasn't a financial debate or a long term planning debate because even I can see the merits of wanting him gone from those POV.

To categorise his failings and then delete selected items is not the way to go, as a long term prospect which is probably our most urgent criterea, Jovanovic doesn't make the rating scale, on a financial footing as a comparison would anyone keep paying for a car that consistently failed to start and when it did never got out of second gear?
These shortcomings are to the detriment of LFC and if we are to build for the future must be eradicated and as somebody said earlier Jovanovic is not the only candidate.

The main point of the discussion was meant to be based more around his footballing ability, or lack thereof.  I thought I'd mentioned enough times that this wasn't a financial debate or a long term planning debate because even I can see the merits of wanting him gone from those POV.

Im not sure why you have quoted me in relation to financial debate vitez. I never mentioned finance.

In my opinion he wasn't good enough to establish himself on the side last season and with us looking to progress I agree that he is not a complete waste of a footballer but he isn't up to the standard we need now or in the future.

Jova will never provide width in the premiership, he does not possess the brain of a winger, he's similar in that respect to Babel, when he's played out wide, he receives the ball his natural instinct is he wants to come into the center, if he does take it into the wings, just like Babel his head goes down and he goes into choo choo train mode and runs into blind alleys and more often than not loses the ball or lacks the end product to make anything happen.

Jova should be played a striker, but as we have Kuyt, Suarez, Carroll, N'Gog (at the moment) & possibly another coming in, there is no future for him here, for too long we have carried journeymen that are simply not good enough for LFC, Jova regardless of his experience is one of these players and should be one of the first out the door in my opinion, if we want to progress as a club we'll not do it with players of Jova's standard, lets be honest.

If nobody takes Jova off us then it just confirms that he's being paid silly money. He may not have done anything for us but he's certainly good enough for a mid-table Premier League team or the equivalent elsewhere.

This one player completely sums up why the last custodians of the club and the man handing out the contracts were utter fools... we struggled like F**k for goals and a striker in the first half of last season but he was never granted a run up front even when we were desperate.. that shows what he must have shown on the training ground.. a new manager comes in and he gets less time .. and all for what is belived to be anywhere between 70-120k a week.. Purslow is a fool.. was any other club interested in him last summer going to pay a similar amount in wages? i wouldnt think so.. his agent deserves a medal..