Man Utd 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match debrief

I have to disagree with you there JD. I know that it wasn't a penalty and we were screwed again by Webb, but our system blatantly didn't work, irrespective of the penalty decision. Rafa got it wrong today. Kuyt shouldn't have started, Lucas shouldn't have started and neither should Insua. This was not the United team of last season either, they are average at best, their one saving grace is Rooney. Take him out of the equation and they are nothing special at all. Once again I will reiterate, they were there for the taking, Rafa chose to back off. After the Portsmouth game I thought that Rafa would have embraced what can be achieved by going for the kill, but sadly, he reverted to type. And before i receive the ' it's only Portsmouth' replies, if you keep the ball and move it around consistently, like we did that night, it doesn't matter who the opponents are, you will bear the fruits of your labour.

Lucas did alright against Lille though mate and warranted a start today especially considering his recent performances against the big sides (including last year's demolition of United at Old Trafford). As for Insua, we don't have another left back so it's either Agger there (don't fancy that idea if I'm being honest) or Carra/Kelly/Johnson being shifted all of whom are right footed. Or alternatively we can change the system which I doubt even entered Rafa's head. As for Kuyt, ideally he wouldn't of played, but he's probably more of a certainty to play in these sort of games than anybody.

Secondly United are still a good side, despite the loss of Ronaldo. They may not be as easy on the eye as Arsenal but they are still a good side for the simple fact they know how to get results. Sometimes more fairly than others.

I do agree we could of gone with the same attitude that we did against Portsmouth with the same system. But it was this system and this crop of players that have faired us so well in these games over the past season and a half. I can see exactly why Rafa decided on this side, the only major flaw was not changing it quickly enough once we'd gone behind. But for me this was the starting XI I'd probably of picked meself with the possible exception of Yossi for Kuyt.

Far too many posts/pages to read after a defeat.Just finished watching a recording & felt we deserved a point.
Don't think its fair to single out Lucas ( I thought he done alright).Kuyt's performances getting progressivley worst.
Is it me or does anyone else think playing him ahead of Yossi does'nt make any sense?
First touches all round today were very poor.My MOM had to be Carra,(kept Shrek pretty quiet overall).Feel the fourth spot slowly drifting away.Come on now Rafa take the shackles off and lets go and BASH a few sides.

Yes but my point is we cant be 2 faced about other players doing it manc or not

The inconsistency of refereeing is grating though.

Look at our Portsmouth game we should have had 3 pens - Glen Johnson even got completely taken out.  And then a ropey pen like that gets given.

In fact I remember us this season, it was an important game, where we had something similar and it was a free kick.

You could almost debate there should be another referee in a soundproofed room with a TV monitor to judge those decisions.

Because the amount of football decisions that are given to home sides is getting beyond a joke.

MOTD just showed some stunners by Webb.

1st one - The penalty United got against Spurs that shouldn't have been

2nd one - The game we had against Arsenal where Gerrard was hacked down by Gallas, not given.

3rd one - Today's mistake when he gave United a penalty when the foul was outside the box.

He clearly prefers United and i don't want this guy ever being in charge of one of our games again or a Manc game for that fact because we know what will happen!!

 some foreign refs dont trust these limeys any more

They are top of the league.  Clearly, they are not average at best.

It's all opinions, but I don't think any formation would have got us the win today, or any personnel changes.

Lucas did alright against Lille though mate and warranted a start today especially considering his recent performances against the big sides (including last year's demolition of United at Old Trafford). As for Insua, we don't have another left back so it's either Agger there (don't fancy that idea if I'm being honest) or Carra/Kelly/Johnson being shifted all of whom are right footed. Or alternatively we can change the system which I doubt even entered Rafa's head. As for Kuyt, ideally he wouldn't of played, but he's probably more of a certainty to play in these sort of games than anybody.

Secondly United are still a good side, despite the loss of Ronaldo. They may not be as easy on the eye as Arsenal but they are still a good side for the simple fact they know how to get results. Sometimes more fairly than others.

I do agree we could of gone with the same attitude that we did against Portsmouth with the same system. But it was this system and this crop of players that have faired us so well in these games over the past season and a half. I can see exactly why Rafa decided on this side, the only major flaw was not changing it quickly enough once we'd gone behind. But for me this was the starting XI I'd probably of picked meself with the possible exception of Yossi for Kuyt.

My point is lads, this has been the most open Premier League title race for years, United and Arsenal have both lost six games already, Chelsea five. Everyone has been inconsistent, no team is setting the League alight. Who'd have thought that a team that could possibly lose seven or eight games could win the league.?

I agree that we all have different opinions, and in my opinion, United are a very average side, the only reason they're up the top is  the Wayne Rooney Show. If we'd adopted an attacking system from the off, we'd have done them again. Sadly, we'll never know, as we played the defensive / counter attack style again. After the second goal it took Rafa fourteen of the remaining thirty minutes, to make a change, by then it was too late. It wasn't working before the Park goal, so why the delay in removing substandard players from the field.?

I'm still behind Rafa, make no mistake about that, and i hope he gets the chance to rectify the situation next season, as i believe he will. What i am questioning though, is Rafa's ability to remove himself from his usual train of thought and try to improvise and adapt new methods when things clearly aren't working.

My point is lads, this has been the most open Premier League title race for years, United and Arsenal have both lost six games already, Chelsea five. Everyone has been inconsistent, no team is setting the League alight. Who'd have thought that a team that could possibly lose seven or eight games could win the league.?

Oh - I definitely agree with you there.  But then, the teams at the top are likely to get just as much points.  They certainly have lost a crazy number of games for top of the table teams - but the key is that they haven't drawn many.

Even looking at us, our home record isn't too bad.  But we've lost 8 games away and United have lost 5.

Goes some way to explain why we beat them at Anfield and lost to them away.

What i am questioning though, is Rafa's ability to remove himself from his usual train of thought and try to improvise and adapt new methods when things clearly aren't working.

You say clearly not working though but he did make changes and we certainly had two excellent Torres' chances to equalise. Normally at least one of those would sail in.

My biggest concern now is the Europa League.  I think it could be a distraction too far, something Man City, Spurs and Villa don't have to worry about.

And also, lets concentrate on being exactly what we are. The greatest supporters of the greatest football club on the planet.

YNWA

Yes. We are Liverpool, and will always be the greatest club and supporters. The Mancs know that, and it really grates their balls.

They are top of the league.  Clearly, they are not average at best.

It's all opinions, but I don't think any formation would have got us the win today, or any personnel changes.

I can think of a personnel change that might have affected the result - Webb.

Oh - I definitely agree with you there.  But then, the teams at the top are likely to get just as much points.  They certainly have lost a crazy number of games for top of the table teams - but the key is that they haven't drawn many.

Even looking at us, our home record isn't too bad.  But we've lost 8 games away and United have lost 5.

Goes some way to explain why we beat them at Anfield and lost to them away.
You say clearly not working though but he did make changes and we certainly had two excellent Torres' chances to equalise. Normally at least one of those would sail in.

My biggest concern now is the Europa League.  I think it could be a distraction too far, something Man City, Spurs and Villa don't have to worry about.

Good points JD, my main concern though is not how Rafa changes things, but when he changes them. If we stick with this defensive central midfield unit for the run in, then we are inviting trouble through our front door. My main concern today was that Rafa went with Lucas instead of Aquilani, and the timing of his substitutions, all of which were too late to make a definitive impact in the time left. Gerrard and Torres need a productive supply line to function effectively, only Aquilani can provide this, Lucas never will. That though, is just my opinion. I want to see an offensive free flowing Liverpool, not a robotic, lifeless malfunctioning machine that is slowly burning out.

It was interesting to see both the Lille and Portsmouth games.

You would have looked at the line up and said both were the 4-2-3-1 but they weren't at all.

Where Aquilani was playing on Monday, Lucas was playing on Thursday. It was a bit odd - more like 4-1-4-1.

Either way, doesn't matter who is in midfield - if Gerrard doesn't want to play then we've got a big huge gap and we're going to struggle.

The season has still got a lot to happen.  It's perfectly possible that Spurs and Man City for instance could both beat Man Utd and we can still finish 4th. Although Spurs won't beat Utd because they are sh*t.

About time it was made official

Webb is horrific to be honest

Just posted on another thread some of the valid points on this one.The thing that really get's me going is how sh*te refereeing decisions are now becoming more influencial on the league placings at both ends of it.Severel years ago, these men were paid a significant amount of money to become "professional referees".They might have elevated their fitness levels,(pay me £50 grand a year and I'll spend my time in the gym to become the next terminator).But their decision making quality is in serious question."Assistant referees" my arse,they are f*cking linesmen,they have their own specific role on the pitch,and that is not to bolster the ego or performance of the referee.Once again we are wandering towards the American football mentality, of officials controlling games,not players or managers.The Europa league has already taken the first step,with extra "goal line officials".What next,a penalty referee,or a "gain line" flag referee.Most of these issues could be solved with technology,(as proven in Rugby League).The argument against is that you incur stoppage time whilst the video ref decides.Doesn't destroy my enjoyment of the game and at least I go home not doubting contraversial decisions,and managers and players get sacked for the right reasons.

Do need the linesmen that europa have.

I'll admit first time i saw it, i thought it was a pitch invader

To be fair the media don't help replaying it about 312 times.

But today's penalty decision was wrong.  The timing it happened at influenced the game in my view.

Even speaking in the gym to people who are pals with Premier League referee's I have serious doubt as to their impartiality. It isn't enough just not refereeing a club that you support - but you can referee a club who's results could impact upon the club you support.

Ref's are untouchable.  From what I heard MOTD showed a fair few of Webb's Man Utd decisions and they all look dodgy as F**k.

Anyone else find it annoying how they all keep saying Rooney scored the penalty? For crying out loud he didn't score the penalty, the penalty was saved!

Anyone else find it annoying how they all keep saying Rooney scored the penalty? For crying out loud he didn't score the penalty, the penalty was saved!

Yeah already seen/heard that a bit.

Anyone else find it annoying how they all keep saying Rooney scored the penalty? For crying out loud he didn't score the penalty, the penalty was saved!

MOTD = Manure fan base stems from there.

They are always always showing LFC's terrible moments or its just me

Let's face it, the mancs have always been a tricky and frustrating fixture for us over the years. I think yesterday was just one of those days where you think it could have very easily gone either way and it was probably about time it went theirs, unfortunately. That's why I said after the game, I'm taking it on the chin.

Conceding a very debatable penalty within minutes of taking the lead can warp the players mentality and attitude to how they play their football for the remainder of the half. And ultimately, not taking your chances at old toilet will prevent you from gaining points there.

After some games, you've just got to get it out your system and look to the next one.

Let's face it, the mancs have always been a tricky and frustrating fixture for us over the years. I think yesterday was just one of those days where you think it could have very easily gone either way and it was probably about time it went theirs, unfortunately. That's why I said after the game, I'm taking it on the chin.

Conceding a very debatable penalty within minutes of taking the lead can warp the players mentality and attitude to how they play their football for the remainder of the half. And ultimately, not taking your chances at old toilet will prevent you from gaining points there.

After some games, you've just got to get it out your system and look to the next one.

Very right mate!

Bloody manc mate in Australia, who said the penalty should have been a red card as well. Texted back "Never a red and not even a F***ing penalty he was outside the box!"

He replies "Well you had plenty of chances to change that"

Bloody hell. Not even acknowledging it wasn't a penalty and they got lucky with that. As you said, we had some chances to gain points but when you get a decision like that it can change your mindset tremendously.

Love this in the Telegraph as-it-happened on the website:

90 min: Five minutes of Fergie time to be played. Fourth official hasn't quite understood how this works, has he?

To be fair the media don't help replaying it about 312 times.

But today's penalty decision was wrong.  The timing it happened at influenced the game in my view.

Even speaking in the gym to people who are pals with Premier League referee's I have serious doubt as to their impartiality. It isn't enough just not refereeing a club that you support - but you can referee a club who's results could impact upon the club you support.

Ref's are untouchable.  From what I heard MOTD showed a fair few of Webb's Man Utd decisions and they all look dodgy as f**k.

Stupid commentators during the Live game thought it was a stone wall penalty. Retards must've had the wrong prescription glasses. Hansen and Dixon said it wasn't a pen. Foul started way outside the box and Valencia only decided to fall once he got there.

Just realised one of my mates tagged me in this yesterday on facebook.